Sorcerer Blink OP

ThatHappyCat

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

Censorious

Blink is clearly intended as the NB stun-lock antidote. Perfectly balanced IMO.

rager82b14_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

Yes, but as a magic base NB. I can spam my stuns more than they can break it. So, it will still happen. Just takes longer.

Semel

JoxerHD wrote: »

I would suggest you crawl your way back to the WoW forums, where your type of behaviour is encouraged.

And who are you ?

Take your suggestion and stick it up a place where the sun doesn't shine.

The skill is fine. And it is not spammable unlike vampire mist form at stage 4 vampirism.

PS I have never even played WOW, m0r0n.

zamiel

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, but as a magic base NB. I can spam my stuns more than they can break it. So, it will still happen. Just takes longer.

Pretty wrong example. In case of ganks you might spam all those stuns but you have to linger there while you are in constant danger (even more so as you are dumping your bar into stunning someone).

The main problem with blink is the fact that combat doesn't even happen if you don't want it. In pvp only burst damage and mobility matters, sorcs have both aplenty. A bit too much actually.

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

And blink is countered by gap closers and cc?? I don't see your point at all, a good player will punish a bad player regardless of build.

Ithug

COME ON!!! Sorcerer wih light armor get killed by 3 hits... leave them that escape.. for god sake!

zamiel

Ithug wrote: »

COME ON!!! Sorcerer wih light armor get killed by 3 hits... leave them that escape.. for god sake!

What a flawed argument.
HP and defenses are redundant for sorcs since they can escape any time. If any caster class runs out of blue bar they die, sorcs are no different. The difference is that while they have a blue bar other caster classes can die. Sorcs can't.

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO

zamiel wrote: »

Ithug wrote: »

COME ON!!! Sorcerer wih light armor get killed by 3 hits... leave them that escape.. for god sake!

What a flawed argument.
HP and defenses are redundant for sorcs since they can escape any time. If any caster class runs out of blue bar they die, sorcs are no different. The difference is that while they have a blue bar other caster classes can die. Sorcs can't.

Yes but if they are spamming their escape then they certainly aren't doing damage. What part of that is difficult to understand. Escapes have counters.

zamiel

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes but if they are spamming their escape then they certainly aren't doing damage. What part of that is difficult to understand. Escapes have counters.

Well, I think if a sorc goes 435353432:0 during his pvp career while running away from another 435353432 guys - no matter how he didn't do any damage to the latter due to 'running away' - the class is imbalanced.
If sorcs were limited to just one faction and you wouldn't be able to score even one kill against them - the class is imbalanced again.

I'm not saying nerf blink and sorcs to the ground. I'm saying sorcs should realistically be in danger while doing pvp - just like the rest of the classes.

limeli8

Killed an emperor sorc that was blinking last night just fine, took only 2 people. Cant blink out of a knockdown.

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO

zamiel wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes but if they are spamming their escape then they certainly aren't doing damage. What part of that is difficult to understand. Escapes have counters.

Well, I think if a sorc goes 435353432:0 during his pvp career while running away from another 435353432 guys - no matter how he didn't do any damage to the latter due to 'running away' - the class is imbalanced.
If sorcs were limited to just one faction and you wouldn't be able to score even one kill against them - the class is imbalanced again.

I'm not saying nerf blink and sorcs to the ground. I'm saying sorcs should realistically be in danger while doing pvp - just like the rest of the classes.

What kind of flawed logic is that?? A sorc running away poses zero threat to you, just because you can't instagib him (you can by the way see gap closers and cc for help) you call the class imbalanced thats bloody hilarious.

zamiel

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

What kind of flawed logic is that?? A sorc running away poses zero threat to you, just because you can't instagib him (you can by the way see gap closers and cc for help) you call the class imbalanced thats bloody hilarious.

If said sorc gibs one guy then gets away with impunity it is indeed imbalanced. And sorcs can pull that off. You are completely disregarding my post where I said that the problem is that sorcs have good burst and mobility due to blink at the same time.
Seriously, if you fail to see the tactical advantage of sorcs and their blinks you better not go in cyro and take command.

And killing an enemy or having them run away from you is a world of difference. I think you didn't do cyro too much and got killed by the poor defeneseless guys who ran away from you a minute earlier...

crowfl56

This is entirely a pvp issue, every new game has the pvp addicts figure out someway to take advantage of some class skill. This is usually used by the assassin style class (griefers). Let the game and players sort out the tactic's needed to offset advantage. Once the ability allows a class to become unkillable, then and only then look at some sort of nerf.

flo_wb16_ESO

I also agree to TE the blink is a bit OP. As already mentioned from someone in this thread, currently there are many situations we Sorc can just blink out which prevent him from being killed. This is a big advantage as he can control the fight entirely.

flo_wb16_ESO

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

What kind of flawed logic is that?? A sorc running away poses zero threat to you, just because you can't instagib him (you can by the way see gap closers and cc for help) you call the class imbalanced thats bloody hilarious.

Your Logic is flawed ! If a class has a skill to escape nearly all situations without a chance for others to catch up this is way OP. Its like giving a Nightblade 10sec invisibility to escape all situations...

Feidam

The blink has counters just like everything else. Knockdowns work wonders for stopping blink. Also, how is blinking to escape any different than NB using their cloak repeatedly to escape damage. I think people are just mad they lost their kill because they did not have a counter to it up.

ThatHappyCat

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

And blink is countered by gap closers and cc?? I don't see your point at all, a good player will punish a bad player regardless of build.

Gap closers only work if the target is within range, which Bolt Escape is plenty capable of getting out of. I actually have a suggestion floating around to let gap closing skills work like Bolt Escape does if there are no valid targets in range.

CC can be broken out of, after which they are immune to it for 8 seconds; time a plenty to Bolt Escape away.

The fact of the matter is, Sorcerers have to be killed quickly; if you give them any kind of opening then they can and will evade you.

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

Yes, but as a magic base NB. I can spam my stuns more than they can break it. So, it will still happen. Just takes longer.

Stun breaking also makes you immune to stuns for 8 seconds. Any stun you attempt to spam in that time is wasted. And by the time that 8 second is up they may or may not have regenerated enough stamina to break and become immune for another 8 seconds.

There's also Immovable which is relatively cheap and grants CC immunity.

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

And blink is countered by gap closers and cc?? I don't see your point at all, a good player will punish a bad player regardless of build.

Gap closers only work if the target is within range, which Bolt Escape is plenty capable of getting out of. I actually have a suggestion floating around to let gap closing skills work like Bolt Escape does if there are no valid targets in range.

CC can be broken out of, after which they are immune to it for 8 seconds; time a plenty to Bolt Escape away.

The fact of the matter is, Sorcerers have to be killed quickly; if you give them any kind of opening then they can and will evade you.

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Eh, What about Night Blades stun locking? I pretty much kill people before they knew i was there.

Eh, but i don't really mind blink being OP. Game is not design for 1v1.

Stunlocking can be countered by CC breaker. If you're opening with it then they definitely have stamina to do it so if they don't it's their own fault.

It's not OP, and it's not about 1vs1. It's about the fact that Sorcerers are difficult to punish for overextending, making Sorcerer gankers very difficult to get rid of. And if you can't get rid of them, you either have to stay there and guard against their return or leave and let them come back and kill off your reinforcements.

Yes, but as a magic base NB. I can spam my stuns more than they can break it. So, it will still happen. Just takes longer.

Stun breaking also makes you immune to stuns for 8 seconds. Any stun you attempt to spam in that time is wasted. And by the time that 8 second is up they may or may not have regenerated enough stamina to break and become immune for another 8 seconds.

There's also Immovable which is relatively cheap and grants CC immunity.

The point I am making which ye are conveniently ignoring is that if a sorc insta gibs a player as is suggested above he will not have the magicka or stamina to escape effectively.

So in reality you are left wit ha super mobile yet ineffective sorc or a mobile yet counterable sorc.

If he is spamming bolt escape he is not doing damage.

Phaeze

As was said before, this game is based around mass PvP. This currently looks to be an issue for people who are dueling a sorcerer off in some corner of Cyrodiil, far from any sort of objective. If a sorcerer can walk in, stomp all over you and blink out before your friends exact revenge, then your friends weren't paying attention. A sorcerer casting spells big enough to hurt you is not blinking anywhere, so he's a sitting target for anybody who wants to give him a good stab. Conversely, a sorcerer blinking away is not going to be able to cast those big, bad spells at you. Work with your team and coordinate against the enemies, and a sorcerer's blink will simply be another tactic to manage.

Kolache

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

If he is spamming bolt escape he is not doing damage.

The other 3 classes would also like to be able to survive/escape ambushes. You break CC and bolt away, other classes break CC and do whatever they can to triage their disadvantage in a fight they're unlikely to be able to disengage from. Even NBs with their cloak/path have clear and frequently used counters to prevent disengaging.. which is why you don't see people ranting about cloak.

I really don't understand how people can equate escaping with losing in some way. If it wasn't desirable why wouldn't you just stop, faceplant, respawn, and run back to what you were wanting to do? Failing to get killed when you're ambushed or escaping when the odds are not in your favor is closer to a win than it is a loss--just ask the other 3 classes that can't do it.

johnwhitegm_ESO

I saw an archer (can be any class) that would stealth and SNIPE and destroy people 1v1. They then would pop 20% boost in PVP and run and stealth away. So I'm not sure what the difference is - if you want to gank and then stealth away or run away - that's what an assassin does? If you don't like it, I'd recommend to not travel alone and travel with a body. Or even better, use some bait and 1 or 2 friends stealth to have fun. There are many tactics - a dmg burst sorcerer with bolt escape is not a useful group member since the best PVP Siege groups will put points into Siege and PVP Group abilities and they will stomp over any group full of 1v1 burst dmg people - since they don't have any group synergy. While the sorcerers escape, you have taken their keep. Is that a fair trade? No nerf required - allow the dynamic to the game - worry about bug fixing first before trying to balance "1v1" and "group siege" and what if we have arenas - balance "2v2?" then "3v3" then "5v5"? Just so you guys know, WoW isn't balance for 1v1 - the developers have even said so. They confirmed they only pvp balance the game for 5v5.

Kolache

johnwhitegm_ESO wrote: »

I saw an archer (can be any class) that would stealth and SNIPE and destroy people 1v1. They then would pop 20% boost in PVP and run and stealth away. So I'm not sure what the difference is - if you want to gank and then stealth away or run away - that's what an assassin does?

The difference is you have a much better chance of keeping up with the NB and when they cloak you can pop an AoE if you stay on top of them.

johnwhitegm_ESO wrote: »

There are many tactics - a dmg burst sorcerer with bolt escape is not a useful group member since the best PVP Siege groups will put points into Siege and PVP Group abilities and they will stomp over any group full of 1v1 burst dmg people - since they don't have any group synergy.

How does having Bolt Escape as one of your 10 abilities have anything to do with whatever else you choose to equip? What's stopping you from taking 9-group based abilities and Bolt Escape? These have nothing to do with each other.

Every class can build out for whatever role they want. 1 class can escape any of these other players with impunity, (regardless of what role they're assuming).

Solomon_Cato

[/quote]
Not every class or every build is IWIN vs "X" class. Its much closer to (class x class)(build x build)/skills slotted=win. [/quote]

Well put.

P.S. Stupid quote system.

Thechemicals

crislevin wrote: »

How is escaping op anyway? It's not like the escaping actually kills others, you can be frustrated, but it does not give soc any significant advantage in finishing you off.

If you want complete fairness, then it should take similar time to kill melee character by a soc from afar, as to kill a soc by a melee character up close. Are they the same? I don't think so.

Ill explain how it is op. The ability has a free pass in case things go wrong. The most popular use is to sneak up on someone and expend all your dps on him. If that attack fails and the sorcerer knows his chance at an easy kill failed, then he drinks a potion and defends long enough to bolster a 3-5 spammed bolt escape to safety.
Using the rules of "counterplay": A player attacks another player offensively and in return the counter player has a small window of 3-5 seconds or less to kill his opponent before he bolt escapes to safety. The abilities Op lies within the small window it gives an enemy to counter the sorcerer after having made his dps attack. The counterplayer would have to deliver massive damage on a defending sorcerer in a very short time, but instead the player is attacked and the attacker escapes to find someone else to repeat this process.

The other use for bolt escape is to just simply leave any encounter you want to without consequence. You can crit charge a bolt escape, but then it becomes a battle of stamina versus magicka. At some point when your stamina is exhausted from trying to keep up with a bolt escaper, he turns around and dps's you in the face and you are dead. The penalty of bolt escape is not balanced with the hidden penalty of chasing a bolt escaper until your drained.

Kolache

Thechemicals wrote: »

You can crit charge a bolt escape, but then it becomes a battle of stamina versus magicka. At some point when your stamina is exhausted from trying to keep up with a bolt escaper, he turns around and dps's you in the face and you are dead. The penalty of bolt escape is not balanced with the hidden penalty of chasing a bolt escaper until your drained.

Although I agree with what you said, I wish I actually saw this happening more often. As it is, more often than not I see 2 consecutive bolts before someone even charges. If you get stunned in the process, you have very little time to recover then squeeze in a charge while they're in range. Of course if you use your CC break then you lose half your stamina that you're charging with anyway.

Break CC and pursue for half as long. Don't break CC and he's out of range before you can charge. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

crislevin

zamiel wrote: »

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes but if they are spamming their escape then they certainly aren't doing damage. What part of that is difficult to understand. Escapes have counters.

Well, I think if a sorc goes 435353432:0 during his pvp career while running away from another 435353432 guys - no matter how he didn't do any damage to the latter due to 'running away' - the class is imbalanced.
If sorcs were limited to just one faction and you wouldn't be able to score even one kill against them - the class is imbalanced again.

I'm not saying nerf blink and sorcs to the ground. I'm saying sorcs should realistically be in danger while doing pvp - just like the rest of the classes.

Apparently you just want to instant kill others, everything else is less than what you desire. lol

Why don't you propose we just have one class then, everybody the same, same skill, same HP, same Magicka, same stamina.

And guess what, this is not only a PvP game, so at least cut your argument by half first.

crislevin

Thechemicals wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

How is escaping op anyway? It's not like the escaping actually kills others, you can be frustrated, but it does not give soc any significant advantage in finishing you off.

If you want complete fairness, then it should take similar time to kill melee character by a soc from afar, as to kill a soc by a melee character up close. Are they the same? I don't think so.

Ill explain how it is op. The ability has a free pass in case things go wrong. The most popular use is to sneak up on someone and expend all your dps on him. If that attack fails and the sorcerer knows his chance at an easy kill failed, then he drinks a potion and defends long enough to bolster a 3-5 spammed bolt escape to safety.
Using the rules of "counterplay": A player attacks another player offensively and in return the counter player has a small window of 3-5 seconds or less to kill his opponent before he bolt escapes to safety. The abilities Op lies within the small window it gives an enemy to counter the sorcerer after having made his dps attack. The counterplayer would have to deliver massive damage on a defending sorcerer in a very short time, but instead the player is attacked and the attacker escapes to find someone else to repeat this process.

The other use for bolt escape is to just simply leave any encounter you want to without consequence. You can crit charge a bolt escape, but then it becomes a battle of stamina versus magicka. At some point when your stamina is exhausted from trying to keep up with a bolt escaper, he turns around and dps's you in the face and you are dead. The penalty of bolt escape is not balanced with the hidden penalty of chasing a bolt escaper until your drained.

Are you seriously suggesting no other class has decent dps and self preservation skills?

Why would you want to chase a bolt escaped sorc anyway? He/she escaped! because you pose a danger to him/her! You already know this much about why its a bad idea to chase them, why don't you play smart and use the advantages of your class?

Did you mean to say there is no advantage of other class at all? I guess other posts about invisible NB, God Templar, super tank DK are just plain stupid then?

Thechemicals

crislevin wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

How is escaping op anyway? It's not like the escaping actually kills others, you can be frustrated, but it does not give soc any significant advantage in finishing you off.

If you want complete fairness, then it should take similar time to kill melee character by a soc from afar, as to kill a soc by a melee character up close. Are they the same? I don't think so.

Ill explain how it is op. The ability has a free pass in case things go wrong. The most popular use is to sneak up on someone and expend all your dps on him. If that attack fails and the sorcerer knows his chance at an easy kill failed, then he drinks a potion and defends long enough to bolster a 3-5 spammed bolt escape to safety.
Using the rules of "counterplay": A player attacks another player offensively and in return the counter player has a small window of 3-5 seconds or less to kill his opponent before he bolt escapes to safety. The abilities Op lies within the small window it gives an enemy to counter the sorcerer after having made his dps attack. The counterplayer would have to deliver massive damage on a defending sorcerer in a very short time, but instead the player is attacked and the attacker escapes to find someone else to repeat this process.

The other use for bolt escape is to just simply leave any encounter you want to without consequence. You can crit charge a bolt escape, but then it becomes a battle of stamina versus magicka. At some point when your stamina is exhausted from trying to keep up with a bolt escaper, he turns around and dps's you in the face and you are dead. The penalty of bolt escape is not balanced with the hidden penalty of chasing a bolt escaper until your drained.

Are you seriously suggesting no other class has decent dps and self preservation skills?

Why would you want to chase a bolt escaped sorc anyway? He/she escaped! because you pose a danger to him/her! You already know this much about why its a bad idea to chase them, why don't you play smart and use the advantages of your class?

Did you mean to say there is no advantage of other class at all? I guess other posts about invisible NB, God Templar, super tank DK are just plain stupid then?

Under your view, a sorcerer can attack a player and if that player survives, should not chase the sorcerer because he is gone. That means the counterplay rules are not balanced.

johnwhitegm_ESO

there are times when a NB "instant ports to me" and tries to stunlock me and kill me, I throw down my ultimate to stun him and use a potion. He disappears and stealths away. Even with my mage light I can't find him - so do I get upset because I can't pursue him and NB are too fast to stealth away? So your definition of counter play is that if someone DPS bursts and is not successfully, they should not be able to run away successfully? In that case, there is no such thing for a draw, in a 1v1 fight - its a duel to the death? If I remember correctly, there's even an intro hint that says that a valid tactic is to flee!

The point of this thread is to express that the bolt escape is not OP and is just another tactic amongst the dynamic pvp already in the game. All I can read on this thread is how the reason bolt escape is OP is because after a sorcerer tries to DPS burst and are unsuccessful - they should 'not' have a way out? lol