Wrist pain when playing HA build

Ardriel

Out of curiosity, I want to try out how the Oakensoal HA Pure Class sorcerer nowadays performs. Just to see whether the build has gotten better or worse.

I keep hearing the same argument from so many people: that they can only play 1-bar heavy attack builds because they have some kind of wrist problem or other problems with the nerves in the hand or fingers.
Well. After just 5 parses on the raid dummy, my right wrist hurts so much that I can barely move it anymore—from constantly holding down the left mouse button (heavy attack).
When I play 2-bar no HA, I never have pain in my wrist. Light attacks and weaving aren't a problem either. That just surprises me. Because I usually don't have any problems. Even when I play for a very long time.

Maybe I’m doing something wrong? But you have to hold down the left mouse button almost nonstop. I’m constantly casting heavy attacks, and before they expire, I already press the next skill so it’s already in the queue and will be cast seamlessly as soon as the heavy attack finishes.
Any HA specialist can give me a tip? Maybe I'm really doing something wrong. Anyway, changing key bindings is no option for me. I'm used to the left mouse button for light and heavy attacks. I don't think I could get used to a new binding.

Even when I hold down the right mouse button a little longer to block as a tank, it becomes uncomfortable, and I’ve heard this from other tanks as well.

I really don’t understand how playing 1 bar HA build way can be more comfortable than playing without a HA build. My wrist hurts terribly after just 15 minutes or so. I imagine a raid of 2 hours must be a real torture…

LunaFlora

i use a controller as i play on PlayStation 5 and even when i occasionally play on my PC i still use a controller as it is more accessible and comfortable for me.
Holding down R2 is probably different than holding a mouse button, R2 and L2 are made to be held down for long periods of time.
i know many people who use Heavy Attack builds that also use controllers, but unsure how many do on PC.


For me Light Attack Weaving hurts, because of the frequent button presses which make my joint pain worse and eventually make my hands cramp.
The frequent button presses of a 2 bar build are also because of
- bar swapping
- reactivating abilities that give a temporary buff
- reactivating damaging abilities that are single target.
with the last two points, builds usually have like 5 of these abilities that often last 10-30 seconds.

Ardriel

Okay. I’d probably have even more trouble with a controller. You have to do that with your thumb, right?
Well, people are different, and it depends on what you’re used to.
I press the ability buttons with my left hand. Even pressing them frequently isn’t a problem. But holding down the mouse button with my index finger is.

spartaxoxo

Ardriel wrote: »

Okay. I’d probably have even more trouble with a controller. You have to do that with your thumb, right?
Well, people are different, and it depends on what you’re used to.
I press the ability buttons with my left hand. Even pressing them frequently isn’t a problem. But holding down the mouse button with my index finger is.

No. Right trigger on controller is typically held down by your index finger.

frogthroat

Ardriel wrote: »

Just to see whether the build has gotten better or worse.

When challenge difficulties came, I used my solo arca for quick achievements. Basic Tome+Ass+Storm. Haven't even updated it for U50. Did the frost atro wb in the Rift. Even with challenge difficulties, easy wb.

Yesterday I loaded alt account, with basic oakensorc HA build. Got those Returning Hero quests and one of the pursuit was a wb. So... frost atro wb in the Rift. Oh man... that took ages. Longer than with my U48 solo arca on challenge difficulty. Might be it just felt so long since my solo arca still hits like a truck, but still, it really was boring.

beer781993

Pain in the fingers or wrist can also occur if your muscles are not used to a movement.
I started playing claw on a Ps5 controller. First it hurt but after 2 weeks it was fine.

Ingenon

Off topic, mods please delete if not allowed.

Exercises can help when fingers, hands, wrists are hurting. Gyro Ball and/or Adjustable Hand Grip Strengthener helps with finger, hand, and wrist. Usual caveats, talk with Primary Care before starting new exercises, and start with few repetitions and work up to more.

Ardriel

Ingenon wrote: »

Off topic, mods please delete if not allowed.

Exercises can help when fingers, hands, wrists are hurting. Gyro Ball and/or Adjustable Hand Grip Strengthener helps with finger, hand, and wrist. Usual caveats, talk with Primary Care before starting new exercises, and start with few repetitions and work up to more.

That's not off-topic. I think that's a good tip. Just practice. Build up slowly. Maybe it's not quite as exhausting in real content as it is with dummy parse, since you do take breaks or do other movements every now and then. But I don't think I could make it through a 2-hour raid right now...

However, I find it hard to imagine that this playing style is less painful for people with wrist problems.
But as I said, it's probably just a matter of getting used to it.

AzuraFan

You might not be doing anything wrong. Injuries and people are different. I prefer to play a one-bar build because of an RSI, but I don't play heavy attack builds because having to press or hold something longer than a tap can flare up my injury. I use oakensoul, but no heavy attacking unless I absolutely have to.

Whenever I play a game that has an accessibility setting for tap vs. hold, I always set it to tap. Unfortunately, ESO has overloaded the controller (assigned something to every possible input) so much that it has no room to offer alternatives (I use a controller to play).

CalamityCat

With repetitive strain issues like RSI, it tends to happen after a prolonged period of someone working for longer periods without enough breaks and often working through the really mild tiredness/discomfort until the pain isn't going away. In my case it was full-time typing for a few weeks on an old keyboard that had the stiffest keys I've ever encountered. So I don't think that's necessarily what you're getting with parsing on a HA build, unless you have been playing longer sessions without rest breaks and your hand was already tired. In which case please take breaks and shorten gaming sessions now, because if you ignore the pain it gets worse and you'll need to take a total rest from gaming to settle it down.

I suspect the issue here is the parsing. When you held the button down for 5 parses, your hand/wrist muscles aren't used to that tension and position being held so long. Some people tense up when they're concentrating. Which is why I think the tank you mentioned had an issue blocking. When I heal in guild trials and we're logging, I'll go into 'parse mode' trying to keep all the up-times perfect and not let my group members die. That tires out my hands after a few hours, but It's purely the tension because I'm making the extra effort. Same build elsewhere with no pressure and I could heal all day without a twinge. So I don't think it's the HA build, I suspect it was the parsing.

For normal play when I'm on my HA build I don't have the button constantly held all the time, as I'm in and out of combat, moving around and blocking etc. So the 5 parses hold isn't close to how I'd play normal content. There isn't a need to have the button held constantly. I'd only do that if I was in a boss fight. Even when it's on, my hand is always relaxed because all I need to do is just keep timers going on my skills so there's no need for the tension because it requires far less concentration if you just have a single bar to watch. I usually use my HA build after I've done tiring intense PvE or PvP stuff and it actually helps my hand relax, so it absolutely shouldn't hurt your wrist.

I'd suggest trying your HA build just in normal content but be aware if your hand is actually tensing up, and use as light a touch as you can. Make sure you aren't doing some crazy claw hand tight grip on the mouse too as that might be what's screwing up your wrist. If you feel tension in your neck or any tenderness around the top of your shoulder, that would suggest a tension habit.

Ardriel

CalamityCat wrote: »

With repetitive strain issues like RSI, it tends to happen after a prolonged period of someone working for longer periods without enough breaks and often working through the really mild tiredness/discomfort until the pain isn't going away. In my case it was full-time typing for a few weeks on an old keyboard that had the stiffest keys I've ever encountered. So I don't think that's necessarily what you're getting with parsing on a HA build, unless you have been playing longer sessions without rest breaks and your hand was already tired. In which case please take breaks and shorten gaming sessions now, because if you ignore the pain it gets worse and you'll need to take a total rest from gaming to settle it down.

I suspect the issue here is the parsing. When you held the button down for 5 parses, your hand/wrist muscles aren't used to that tension and position being held so long. Some people tense up when they're concentrating. Which is why I think the tank you mentioned had an issue blocking. When I heal in guild trials and we're logging, I'll go into 'parse mode' trying to keep all the up-times perfect and not let my group members die. That tires out my hands after a few hours, but It's purely the tension because I'm making the extra effort. Same build elsewhere with no pressure and I could heal all day without a twinge. So I don't think it's the HA build, I suspect it was the parsing.

For normal play when I'm on my HA build I don't have the button constantly held all the time, as I'm in and out of combat, moving around and blocking etc. So the 5 parses hold isn't close to how I'd play normal content. There isn't a need to have the button held constantly. I'd only do that if I was in a boss fight. Even when it's on, my hand is always relaxed because all I need to do is just keep timers going on my skills so there's no need for the tension because it requires far less concentration if you just have a single bar to watch. I usually use my HA build after I've done tiring intense PvE or PvP stuff and it actually helps my hand relax, so it absolutely shouldn't hurt your wrist.

I'd suggest trying your HA build just in normal content but be aware if your hand is actually tensing up, and use as light a touch as you can. Make sure you aren't doing some crazy claw hand tight grip on the mouse too as that might be what's screwing up your wrist. If you feel tension in your neck or any tenderness around the top of your shoulder, that would suggest a tension habit.

What you're saying makes perfect sense. When I concentrate really hard, I also get really tense. That's probably the problem.
I've also noticed that I get neck pain after dealing with difficult content. At other times, when everything is chill, I don't have any problems, even after hours of playing.
It's quite possible that I'm pressing the mouse button way too hard. That would explain why it starts to hurt after such a short time.

ssewallb14_ESO

Everyone's body and hand issues are a little different.

I had multiple pully injuries in my right hand last year.

I crafted an HA pet sorc build that mostly just required holding left click. Because of this I could avoid using my thumb and ring finger entirely. I probably just wouldn't have been able to play the game for a few months otherwise, at least not group content.

kargen27

Ardriel wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

With repetitive strain issues like RSI, it tends to happen after a prolonged period of someone working for longer periods without enough breaks and often working through the really mild tiredness/discomfort until the pain isn't going away. In my case it was full-time typing for a few weeks on an old keyboard that had the stiffest keys I've ever encountered. So I don't think that's necessarily what you're getting with parsing on a HA build, unless you have been playing longer sessions without rest breaks and your hand was already tired. In which case please take breaks and shorten gaming sessions now, because if you ignore the pain it gets worse and you'll need to take a total rest from gaming to settle it down.

I suspect the issue here is the parsing. When you held the button down for 5 parses, your hand/wrist muscles aren't used to that tension and position being held so long. Some people tense up when they're concentrating. Which is why I think the tank you mentioned had an issue blocking. When I heal in guild trials and we're logging, I'll go into 'parse mode' trying to keep all the up-times perfect and not let my group members die. That tires out my hands after a few hours, but It's purely the tension because I'm making the extra effort. Same build elsewhere with no pressure and I could heal all day without a twinge. So I don't think it's the HA build, I suspect it was the parsing.

For normal play when I'm on my HA build I don't have the button constantly held all the time, as I'm in and out of combat, moving around and blocking etc. So the 5 parses hold isn't close to how I'd play normal content. There isn't a need to have the button held constantly. I'd only do that if I was in a boss fight. Even when it's on, my hand is always relaxed because all I need to do is just keep timers going on my skills so there's no need for the tension because it requires far less concentration if you just have a single bar to watch. I usually use my HA build after I've done tiring intense PvE or PvP stuff and it actually helps my hand relax, so it absolutely shouldn't hurt your wrist.

I'd suggest trying your HA build just in normal content but be aware if your hand is actually tensing up, and use as light a touch as you can. Make sure you aren't doing some crazy claw hand tight grip on the mouse too as that might be what's screwing up your wrist. If you feel tension in your neck or any tenderness around the top of your shoulder, that would suggest a tension habit.

What you're saying makes perfect sense. When I concentrate really hard, I also get really tense. That's probably the problem.
I've also noticed that I get neck pain after dealing with difficult content. At other times, when everything is chill, I don't have any problems, even after hours of playing.
It's quite possible that I'm pressing the mouse button way too hard. That would explain why it starts to hurt after such a short time.

Another game I play I have to keep the mouse button pressed down for a period of time. I was pressing way to hard. Not only hurt my hand but also wore out my mouse quicker than it should have. I still hold the button down to hard I think but in that game I can switch hands (I use two mice anyway for other stuff) so each hand gets a break.

LootAllTheStuff

Try and pay attention to how hard you're pressing down the mouse button. It may be that you're applying more pressure than you need to, and that is the issue. If that isn't the issue, maybe look into how else you might set up your attack? I know if I have a long session of artwork where I'm holding down the mouse button a lot it also gets quite painful - it's why I greatly prefer a pad/stylus for that.

tsaescishoeshiner

I believe you can add a second bind for light/heavy attack, so that you can find a more comfortable finger (or even a foot pedal).

They're adding more channeled abilities, where you press a button once for 4-5 seconds. Arcanist, werewolf, and Dragonknight all have one currently, with Arcanist probably being the best damage and working as a subclass.

CalamityCat

Ardriel wrote: »

What you're saying makes perfect sense. When I concentrate really hard, I also get really tense. That's probably the problem.
I've also noticed that I get neck pain after dealing with difficult content. At other times, when everything is chill, I don't have any problems, even after hours of playing.
It's quite possible that I'm pressing the mouse button way too hard. That would explain why it starts to hurt after such a short time.[/quote]
I had a neck injury years ago that wouldn't settle, it was the hospital Doctor who suggested I might be tensing and/or lifting my shoulders when I concentrate because apparently it's a thing. She also checked I had a decent ergonomic chair/computer setup, because you can get pain through not having the monitor/chair at the correct height etc. I ended up with timers to remind me to take breaks and do some shoulder/neck stretch exercises. But it's an annoying habit when you're just trying to play a computer game!

Gabriel_H

I have considerable dexterity issues. Damaged nerves and tendons. A lack of very fine motor control.

The difference between me playing a 1-bar build vs 2-bars build:



Also Synergy bound to the middle button helps to.

Pixiepumpkin

I find HA builds easier on my hands than builds where you are required to weave. Weaving hurts my hands significanly more than holding down a button.

I find that target dummy can induce hand pain moreso than normal combat where positioning is required.

ApoAlaia

I hold LMB with my foot.

Regrettably I am not dextrous enough with my feet to run a dynamic rotation on a two bar build but I can certainly press a pedal (or three).

A triple pedal setup allows me to play the game with a one bar build on days where my upper extremities need to take it easy.

There are good days, meh days and bad days but this allows me to play regardless.

I have a different device ordered that will allow me to do more but CE certification hurdles and import issues have delayed it for a year (and counting)... can't wait tbh.

ApoAlaia

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I have considerable dexterity issues. Damaged nerves and tendons. A lack of very fine motor control.

The difference between me playing a 1-bar build vs 2-bars build:



Also Synergy bound to the middle button helps to.

I have synergy bound to scroll wheel (down) instead.

Bliss.

And I have swap bar bound to 'forward' and bash/break free to 'back' side buttons.

I choose mice where the are positioned vertically rather than horizontally so I don't have to reach with my thumb for the 'forward' button.

Then the pedals for whatever is needed in content (sprint, block, interact, whathaveyou...)

This allows me to play a two bar build for two or three hours on a good day and about an hour on a meh one.

Game changer.

Still need the one bar build for the bad days tho...

o_Primate_o

i'm totally the opposite than many pp - holding the trigger for HA build or perma-block on tank hurts my knuckles, but weaving is usually no problem but if i parse too long my LA finger twitches involuntarily.

Gabriel_H

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I have considerable dexterity issues. Damaged nerves and tendons. A lack of very fine motor control.

The difference between me playing a 1-bar build vs 2-bars build:



Also Synergy bound to the middle button helps to.

I have synergy bound to scroll wheel (down) instead.

Bliss.

And I have swap bar bound to 'forward' and bash/break free to 'back' side buttons.

I choose mice where the are positioned vertically rather than horizontally so I don't have to reach with my thumb for the 'forward' button.

Then the pedals for whatever is needed in content (sprint, block, interact, whathaveyou...)

This allows me to play a two bar build for two or three hours on a good day and about an hour on a meh one.

Game changer.

Still need the one bar build for the bad days tho...

I could do with pedals for things like tab target and quickslot. It's my two outer fingers on my left hand that have little functionality. Though new keyboard is more stepped than the old one, which means the I can use gravity just to let my finger "press" the buttons needed.

katanagirl1

I have issues with repetitive motion injury from a previous job. I am on PS so I use a controller, and I get pain in the wrist and right index finger from light attacking since I have to use that finger twice as often as my other fingers. If I just don’t light attack then the wrist pain is still there. Heavy attack Oakensoul is worse, since I have to squeeze the right trigger and hold it for several seconds. Some people like it because they don’t have to bar swap, but hitting the d-pad to swap is not a problem for me.

SkillzMFG

Yes, this even happened to me at some point when I was playing a lot.

Attack-weaving is not only a ridiculous looking, awkward, buggy mechanic it also can generate actual real-life health problems for you. It's just a matter of time before it happens too.

I didn't have this pain even when I played MOBA games at a high level. There's just something about holding the button in these intervals that makes you develop all kinds of issues with your fingers, carpal tunnel, wrists etc.

Before anyone says 'you don't use your wrists and fingers regularly' - I am a piano player who regularly works out, I'm pretty sure my fingers and wrists are agile enough.

Ardriel

Those are a lot of interesting suggestions. Thank you very much.
But I don't think I could get used to rebind the main attack button (left mouse button). I've been used to this since 2014.
I have a 5-button mouse (top left: attack; top right: block; middle button: ultimate; top side: bar swap; bottom side: synergy), and I actually get along with it just fine. As I said light attack weaving is no issue.

A foot pedal—that sounds really cool. But I think I'd get terrible cramps in my foot if I had to use it for light attacks...
Heavy attacks probably wouldn't be a problem, after all it's the same thing you do when you're driving.

I think the problem is simply that I’m pressing the mouse button to hard when I'm tense.
It’s also possible that my fingers are a bit overworked right now because I have a lawn mower that requires me to hold down two switches at the same time to operate it. That’s very tiring.

kargen27 wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

With repetitive strain issues like RSI, it tends to happen after a prolonged period of someone working for longer periods without enough breaks and often working through the really mild tiredness/discomfort until the pain isn't going away. In my case it was full-time typing for a few weeks on an old keyboard that had the stiffest keys I've ever encountered. So I don't think that's necessarily what you're getting with parsing on a HA build, unless you have been playing longer sessions without rest breaks and your hand was already tired. In which case please take breaks and shorten gaming sessions now, because if you ignore the pain it gets worse and you'll need to take a total rest from gaming to settle it down.

I suspect the issue here is the parsing. When you held the button down for 5 parses, your hand/wrist muscles aren't used to that tension and position being held so long. Some people tense up when they're concentrating. Which is why I think the tank you mentioned had an issue blocking. When I heal in guild trials and we're logging, I'll go into 'parse mode' trying to keep all the up-times perfect and not let my group members die. That tires out my hands after a few hours, but It's purely the tension because I'm making the extra effort. Same build elsewhere with no pressure and I could heal all day without a twinge. So I don't think it's the HA build, I suspect it was the parsing.

For normal play when I'm on my HA build I don't have the button constantly held all the time, as I'm in and out of combat, moving around and blocking etc. So the 5 parses hold isn't close to how I'd play normal content. There isn't a need to have the button held constantly. I'd only do that if I was in a boss fight. Even when it's on, my hand is always relaxed because all I need to do is just keep timers going on my skills so there's no need for the tension because it requires far less concentration if you just have a single bar to watch. I usually use my HA build after I've done tiring intense PvE or PvP stuff and it actually helps my hand relax, so it absolutely shouldn't hurt your wrist.

I'd suggest trying your HA build just in normal content but be aware if your hand is actually tensing up, and use as light a touch as you can. Make sure you aren't doing some crazy claw hand tight grip on the mouse too as that might be what's screwing up your wrist. If you feel tension in your neck or any tenderness around the top of your shoulder, that would suggest a tension habit.

What you're saying makes perfect sense. When I concentrate really hard, I also get really tense. That's probably the problem.
I've also noticed that I get neck pain after dealing with difficult content. At other times, when everything is chill, I don't have any problems, even after hours of playing.
It's quite possible that I'm pressing the mouse button way too hard. That would explain why it starts to hurt after such a short time.

Another game I play I have to keep the mouse button pressed down for a period of time. I was pressing way to hard. Not only hurt my hand but also wore out my mouse quicker than it should have. I still hold the button down to hard I think but in that game I can switch hands (I use two mice anyway for other stuff) so each hand gets a break.

I've lost count of how many mice I've bought since I started playing ESO... The left mouse button had broken on most of them.
Since then, I've only been buying high-quality ones that last at least a year or two...

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone's body and hand issues are a little different.

Thats exactly how it is.

Anyway, I find it interesting to see how other players handle the game controls.
It’s great that there are HA and 1-bar builds that give many people access to endgame content.
Hopefully, it stays that way.

HatchetHaro

If holding down a key/button is straining, you might be interested in toggle-keys. Check your mouse software to see if there's an option for that, and if your mouse doesn't come with software, you can also look into using AutoHotkey for the same thing.

RSI can manifest differently in everyone. I myself have no issues spamming buttons, but have issues with prolonged pronation of my wrists, so I solved those by 1. switching to a vertical mouse, and 2. propping up the right side of my keyboard with block of wood.

Korvax_Ironwhisper

I recommend arcanist, werewolf or dk breath channel builds over HA at times. DPS should be better as well, HA have nice perks though. On controller it can bother my trigger fingers during 1-2hour runs. Overall much less wrist pain compared to "meta" weave builds.

ZOS_Kevin

Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

Gabriel_H

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

Just to say explicitly, as has been implied during the thread, a lot of us with varying conditions or disabilities go to our own great lengths in order to mitigate the problem.

Anything ZOS can do to alleviate that burden we admittedly place on ourselves in order to play, would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Missed Word

Cloudtrader

I have played with foot pedals and buttons in the past, for Sprint. It REALLY helped. Maybe you could try a toe button or foot pedal for heavy attack builds, bind the heavy attack to the pedal.

allochthons

For console players, controllers with extra paddles on the back can help some people a lot, depending on what in their hands or wrists are problematic. I tried the Hex controller, but ended up using the PS Edge, because the Hex (nor any 3rd party controller) can't remap the Options button which is the Rez button on a controller. *
I love the Edge, but it is expensive, and a bit heavier than a standard PS5 controller. OTOH, I just replaced a thumb stick that had started to drift, without having to buy a whole new controller.

On a standard controller, I would remap/swap right D-Pad and R3 press, so I can swap weapons with the R3 press, and crouch using D-Pad.

On the Edge, I have bar-swap mapped to the back left paddle, and rez mapped to the back right paddle.

*There is now an add-on, which I haven't really tested, called Oh No My Menu, which prevents a menu from opening when you're trying to rez another player.