what happened to the mid-sized pvp map

seventy_kg

these vengeance tests are getting exhausting. it's already a permanent campaign, why shut down grayhost for it
instead of allocating even more resources on vengeance, maybe focus on bringing the mid-sized map as fast as you can
i dont know whos asking for vengeance, no pvper i know is, and pvers dont pvp so why would they care

Gabriel_H

Vengeance is still a test environment. They are still adding things back in. They need a large number of players to test the performance.

Anybody asking for the performance problems to be fixed in Cyrodiil is asking for Vengeance, because that is what it is trying to fix. ZOS have just been poor communicators about their intent and the envisioned end result. The current Vengeance is not the finished product.

wolfie1.0.

seventy_kg wrote: »

these vengeance tests are getting exhausting. it's already a permanent campaign, why shut down grayhost for it
instead of allocating even more resources on vengeance, maybe focus on bringing the mid-sized map as fast as you can
i dont know whos asking for vengeance, no pvper i know is, and pvers dont pvp so why would they care

Wait a minute. We PVE folks fo care about our PVP cousins. Yall get cranky when you have to venture into our lands. So we want to keep you happy so yall dont convince the devs to nerf our builds because they are OP in your lands.

Seriously, though vengeance needs to happen as painful as it is. The only other option would be to move PVP over to the PTS in its entirety and we all know that would be worse.

imPDA

I would not be sure they will apply Vengeance experience back to GH. Now it looks like Vengeance will always be a separate simplified instance and GH will be separate instance with everything working as usual. Game was simpler 4, 5, 6 years ago and then they started adding buffs to every skill to make classes identical, so we ended up with every player running with 20+ buffs all the time (solo, in group it can be much more), which for sure *** up performance. And now they introduced exactly this (separate from PvE simplified set of skills) but in Vengeance. Why not in GH?

They also announced that Vengeance is not a solution for a GH issue, mid-size battles are, so you could get full Cyro experience without lags there, not in Vengeance. Vengeance will always be simplified version of GH. If they will manage to make it very close to original GH, people probably migrate over time, but for that they have to add sets, more skills, mastery, WW, etc. etc, and remove templated resources and loadouts. Nowadays it is too dull to take Vengeance seriously.

Even RW was better with limited sets, it was simplified version but close enough to make me want to play it.

RedMamba

imPDA wrote: »

I would not be sure they will apply Vengeance experience back to GH. Now it looks like Vengeance will always be a separate simplified instance and GH will be separate instance with everything working as usual. Game was simpler 4, 5, 6 years ago and then they started adding buffs to every skill to make classes identical, so we ended up with every player running with 20+ buffs all the time (solo, in group it can be much more), which for sure *** up performance. And now they introduced exactly this (separate from PvE simplified set of skills) but in Vengeance. Why not in GH?

They also announced that Vengeance is not a solution for a GH issue, mid-size battles are, so you could get full Cyro experience without lags there, not in Vengeance. Vengeance will always be simplified version of GH. If they will manage to make it very close to original GH, people probably migrate over time, but for that they have to add sets, more skills, mastery, WW, etc. etc, and remove templated resources and loadouts. Nowadays it is too dull to take Vengeance seriously.

Even RW was better with limited sets, it was simplified version but close enough to make me want to play it.

Vengeance still lags

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey all, just to confirm the mid-size PvP zone is still in progress.

NovelliESO

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still a test environment. They are still adding things back in. They need a large number of players to test the performance.

Anybody asking for the performance problems to be fixed in Cyrodiil is asking for Vengeance, because that is what it is trying to fix. ZOS have just been poor communicators about their intent and the envisioned end result. The current Vengeance is not the finished product.

[snip] There are thousands of people asking for performance issues to be fixed that do not want anything allocated to vengeance and want it to be done live on the greyhost server instead. Vengeance is unpopular, but don't worry the billion dollar company has noticed your hundreds of comments in defense of them.

[edited for flaming]

LadyGP

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still a test environment. They are still adding things back in. They need a large number of players to test the performance.

Anybody asking for the performance problems to be fixed in Cyrodiil is asking for Vengeance, because that is what it is trying to fix. ZOS have just been poor communicators about their intent and the envisioned end result. The current Vengeance is not the finished product.

They said in no uncertain terms that Vengeance was just a test and the final product would never be like what we saw in Test 1 - yet they put Vengeance on production in almost the same form as Test 1.

That isn't poor communication that is an intentional design decision. The moment the announced Vengeance the feedback about the rule set couldn't have been more clear - even during the live stream.

I'm not sure what their final intent is for Vengeance. Part of me thinks they pushed it to live and was hoping the players would flock to it, even though the outrage about it was brutally clear, but I think they just had a hope and a prayer that it would slowly populate over time.

For me my dislike comes down to one thing - I feel like no matter what "build" I run I have little to no impact in this game mode. The TTK is brutally long, healing seems really difficult, and no matter what people do it just comes down to a zerg vs zerg numbers game or a siege simulator.

Nothing about this is fun.

As for a midsize map and the OP question - I too have been wondering what happened to this map. I am concerned though, that without massive changes to ball groups (not the pull sets but the shield stacking) this map will be an absolute disaster of just small man groups and ball groups that are near unkillable running around farming - obviously I say all of this with knowing literally nothing about the map/play type.

I just hope they don't think this new mode/map will make ball groups want to fight each other. If their mindset is something along the lines of "lets put something in place where ballgroups can just fight each other and maybe they will leave GH and let everyone else have a good time" - we are cooked.

Ballgroups will fight each other and often do.. but it's more of a one off GvG per night kind of thing for a few minutes - which they almost always end up in stale mates because of just the over-healing/shield stacking etc. So if you're trying to build a mode where ball groups can come and just fight each other... I'm sure they would go there from time to time but you're still going to have the overwhelming majority of ball groups raids taking place in GH.

- xCatGuy

reazea

The only map ZOS should be working on right now is improving GH performance.

reazea

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still a test environment. They are still adding things back in. They need a large number of players to test the performance.

Anybody asking for the performance problems to be fixed in Cyrodiil is asking for Vengeance, because that is what it is trying to fix. ZOS have just been poor communicators about their intent and the envisioned end result. The current Vengeance is not the finished product.

No it's not, and no they don't. And vengeance hasn't been used to improve anything in GH to date. No reason to think it will in the future either.

CalamityCat

seventy_kg wrote: »

these vengeance tests are getting exhausting. it's already a permanent campaign, why shut down grayhost for it
instead of allocating even more resources on vengeance, maybe focus on bringing the mid-sized map as fast as you can
i dont know whos asking for vengeance, no pvper i know is, and pvers dont pvp so why would they care

Did you ever consider that maybe Vengeance testing isn't only being used for developing Vengeance further, but could also being used to help the devs build the mid-sized map or other PvP content so it performs better than GH?

When the devs are working on a new mid-sized PvP environment, they don't want players lagging and crashing, so it makes sense if they're adding more stuff like sets into Vengeance for testing, because that data might help them construct a new environment that doesn't stop working the second something interesting happens.

I just don't believe the mid-size area dev time is just placing millions of pumpkins and slapping the GH stuff on top. Funny as that would be....

tomofhyrule

CalamityCat wrote: »

seventy_kg wrote: »

these vengeance tests are getting exhausting. it's already a permanent campaign, why shut down grayhost for it
instead of allocating even more resources on vengeance, maybe focus on bringing the mid-sized map as fast as you can
i dont know whos asking for vengeance, no pvper i know is, and pvers dont pvp so why would they care

Did you ever consider that maybe Vengeance testing isn't only being used for developing Vengeance further, but could also being used to help the devs build the mid-sized map or other PvP content so it performs better than GH?

No, because the whole point of the mid-size zone is that it would be “Grey Host but smaller scale so there is only a low number of players in a small map,” so the calculations aren’t taxing.

Remember: the way they’re fixing the “too many calculations” problem is by changing the skills to have fewer extended effects, DoTs, and target caps. None of those changes will be able to be implemented in general without fundamentally changing the skills themselves.

Grey Host’s problem is that it’s 1) a giant map with 2) over a hundred players to track at once. The performance problems can be seen anywhere - we even had issues with the Night Market due to tracking only 36 players, but the server had to also track all three districts simultaneously for each instance and all boss mechanics across the full zone.

tsaescishoeshiner

They showed a very early version of the midsize PvP zone on a recent stream. We only saw pumpkins and snow, but it's real!

CalamityCat

tomofhyrule wrote: »

No, because the whole point of the mid-size zone is that it would be “Grey Host but smaller scale so there is only a low number of players in a small map,” so the calculations aren’t taxing.

Remember: the way they’re fixing the “too many calculations” problem is by changing the skills to have fewer extended effects, DoTs, and target caps. None of those changes will be able to be implemented in general without fundamentally changing the skills themselves.

Grey Host’s problem is that it’s 1) a giant map with 2) over a hundred players to track at once. The performance problems can be seen anywhere - we even had issues with the Night Market due to tracking only 36 players, but the server had to also track all three districts simultaneously for each instance and all boss mechanics across the full zone.

Sheer numbers of players isn't the only thing you can change to improve performance though. Cutting down the scale and number of players to suit a mid-sized map isn't going to magically give us optimal performance. It might help, but it's so lazy and lacking creativity that I can't really see the point.

Either way, there's little logic in the devs continuing to test in Vengeance if they only use the results in Vengeance development. Especially when so few PvPers play there. Just as I don't see the point in making this midsize pumpkin patch and crippling it with lag. But considering how devoted PvPers are to Grey Host it's probably what we deserve.

tomofhyrule

CalamityCat wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

No, because the whole point of the mid-size zone is that it would be “Grey Host but smaller scale so there is only a low number of players in a small map,” so the calculations aren’t taxing.

Remember: the way they’re fixing the “too many calculations” problem is by changing the skills to have fewer extended effects, DoTs, and target caps. None of those changes will be able to be implemented in general without fundamentally changing the skills themselves.

Grey Host’s problem is that it’s 1) a giant map with 2) over a hundred players to track at once. The performance problems can be seen anywhere - we even had issues with the Night Market due to tracking only 36 players, but the server had to also track all three districts simultaneously for each instance and all boss mechanics across the full zone.

Sheer numbers of players isn't the only thing you can change to improve performance though. Cutting down the scale and number of players to suit a mid-sized map isn't going to magically give us optimal performance. It might help, but it's so lazy and lacking creativity that I can't really see the point.

Either way, there's little logic in the devs continuing to test in Vengeance if they only use the results in Vengeance development. Especially when so few PvPers play there. Just as I don't see the point in making this midsize pumpkin patch and crippling it with lag. But considering how devoted PvPers are to Grey Host it's probably what we deserve.

But it will be a lot smaller of a map with a lot less to track at once.

From the little tidbit they let slip showed, it looked like it was really only one or two keeps with their associated resources. That means that the server would be tracking less than 20% of the information on structures, nothing on Volendrung or scrolls, nothing on destructables, and that's in addition to the fewer players. In essence, they could have several instances open of that new thing to essentially make them 12v12v12 group maps.

Of course we don't know what they will end up looking like because the Combat Team refuses to communicate anything. But we even did have several instances of the Night Market open (too many, in PCNA's case) and the only time performance started to seriously degrade was when you did manage all 36 players to be at the same skirmish at the same time and then a Calamitous wandered in as well. Similarly, PvP performance starts to degrade as more players are together. This is why degradation really ramps up with proximity to a well-organized ballgroup.

seventy_kg

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, just to confirm the mid-size PvP zone is still in progress.

thank you for confirming that, it's good to know!

SaffronCitrusflower

reazea wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Vengeance is still a test environment. They are still adding things back in. They need a large number of players to test the performance.

Anybody asking for the performance problems to be fixed in Cyrodiil is asking for Vengeance, because that is what it is trying to fix. ZOS have just been poor communicators about their intent and the envisioned end result. The current Vengeance is not the finished product.

No it's not, and no they don't. And vengeance hasn't been used to improve anything in GH to date. No reason to think it will in the future either.

Yep. Patiently waiting for ZOS to use the data gathered from these tests to improve GH in some way, you know, like they said they were doing.

SaffronCitrusflower

I'm have zero interest in a scaled down Cyrodiil map.

ZOS needs to do what they've always said they were working on doing, improving GH performance.