Shattered Paths Signet

Highwayman · May 6

Hi ZOS,

I'd just like to thank you for this perfectly balanced mythic. No notes.

On a completely unrelated topic though the following are overperforming and need serious nerfs:

These sets:

Serpent's Disdain
Threads of War
Dro'Zakar's Claws
Unleashed Terror
Draugrkin's Grip
Dragon's Appetite

Plus these class related items:

The Ardent Flame skill line
The Storm Calling skill line
The Herald of the Tome skill line
Warden class masteries
Sorcerer class masteries

And let's face it pretty much the entire Werewolf kit still needs to be brought into line. I advocate just taking skills away from them entirely.

Thanks for listening!

Highwayman · May 6

Ok, ok... I may have been a bit heavy handed with Dro'Zakar's Claws but we definitely need to add the Winter's Embrace skill line to that list.

xylena · May 6

Thank god we gutted NB to preserve Monomyth Reforged!

Now let's gut DK, WW, and every pressure set in the game to preserve Shattered Path Signet!

Who cares about classes or skills, I'm here to let busted sets play the game for me! /s

Firstmep · May 6

You forgot Blood for blood and plaguebreak.

Highwayman · May 6

Firstmep wrote: »

You forgot Blood for blood and plaguebreak.

Very solid point.

Hey ZOS, here's the updated list:

Please gut:

Serpent's Disdain
Threads of War
Unleashed Terror
Draugrkin's Grip
Dragon's Appetite
Plaguebreak
The Ardent Flame skill line
The Storm Calling skill line
The Herald of the Tome skill line
The Winter's Embrace skill line
Warden class masteries
Sorcerer class masteries
Blood for blood (oh wth, let's just do vamp entirely)

Please delete from game:

Werewolf

ItsNotLiving · May 6

“We heard what you guys were saying in the PTS and decided to remove the Battle Spirit limitations on The Shattered Path Signet. We also decided to remove another jab from the Templar Puncturing Strike and its morphs so it now hits twice per cast and replace the Nighthollow staff with a model of a flower. We also deleted all Nightblade characters from the PTS and will be doing so on the live server as well.”

coop500 · May 6

It's sad that half of this is likely to happen because of this damn ring. Oh my god I never hated a piece of gear more, but this thing is beyond busted in every game mode.

Vaqual · May 6

I am having a bit of a hard time differentiation the satire from the genuine complaints. Isn't Threads with full Signet buff still doing less than, e.g., Way of Fire (without burn proc) in PvP? Also, why throw in the on-hit sets there, when the Signet only provides 0.25-1.25 hits/second? 300 DPS broke the camels back? And don't explain me that they both buff status proc spam, they do that independently of each other.
I recognize that this was posted to direct a nerf towards the Signet instead of most of the elements that were listed. But after seeing Monomyth remaining untouched for a year I have a hard time imagining that ZOS is going to nerf stuff based on indirect synergies. There are genuine issues when it comes to the Signet, but mixing real complaints with jokes seems not very helpful. A good number of posts and comments lately almost seem to be manifesting issues.

acanca · May 6

.

Vaqual wrote: »

I am having a bit of a hard time differentiation the satire from the genuine complaints. Isn't Threads with full Signet buff still doing less than, e.g., Way of Fire (without burn proc) in PvP? Also, why throw in the on-hit sets there, when the Signet only provides 0.25-1.25 hits/second? 300 DPS broke the camels back? And don't explain me that they both buff status proc spam, they do that independently of each other.
I recognize that this was posted to direct a nerf towards the Signet instead of most of the elements that were listed. But after seeing Monomyth remaining untouched for a year I have a hard time imagining that ZOS is going to nerf stuff based on indirect synergies. There are genuine issues when it comes to the Signet, but mixing real complaints with jokes seems not very helpful. A good number of posts and comments lately almost seem to be manifesting issues.

I agree 100%. Signet is strong but so was monomyth and the meta eventually adapted to it, its not seen as op atm despite it providing insane offensive and defensive value. I find the calls to nerf Signet a bit overeager.
So far i dont see anything broken, just strong. Even pulse gankers are more of a funny meme than something actually good and you can tank multiple pulse gankers if you know they are focusing you, its kinda trivial with hearth of flame.

xylena · May 6

Vaqual wrote: »

I am having a bit of a hard time differentiation the satire from the genuine complaints

In another thread, Decimus said he got 40k skeleton dummy dps just from LA + Ele Sus weaving. I've tested various OW builds on the skeleton dummy also, getting approx 35k with other mythics (or no mythic), but approx 45k with the same rotations and skills using Shattered Path.

One main problem here is how Shattered Path specifically enables low effort high reward cheese like ranged LA + Ele sus + proc sets, or the WW LA + Rip spam that was being debated in the other threads. Pressure builds are balanced when they demand a deliberate rotation to build up enough to overpower the opponent, but not when you get it for free from brainless spam.

Another main problem is how since the U35 skill nerfs, pressure builds have basically only existed when some busted gear piece pushes the playstyle, so players demand nerfs, then a meta without pressure builds is just tanks holding block for 40 sec in between attempts to one shot.

Highwayman · May 6

Vaqual wrote: »

I am having a bit of a hard time differentiation the satire from the genuine complaints.

Yes, it's satire, the form of which is hyperbole to mock the typical balancing response to issues like this. I don't expect them to nerf everything on the list, nor do I want it. I do expect a chunk of them to get gutted for no real reason to address what I know of mostly as a pvp issue (like entire bg teams almost fully dropping because of the oppressiveness of a couple people with this mythic). I haven't seen anything pve side that bothers me, but then I'm not score chasing or anything either.

This mythic makes pvp into a meat grinder for the inexperienced to an absurd point even in comparison to before. Maybe I'm inexperienced as well, as it makes me spend the majority of my time on the defensive.

If the purpose is to drive people to the new vengeance campaign, I think they nailed the first half (getting people to drop other pvp modes). I am not sure the result is going to be what was planned in the long run though.

Edit:

Oh... and ele sus.. how could i forget that one. That definitely is going on the list, NERF DESTRO STAFF

Vaqual · May 6

xylena wrote: »

One main problem here is how Shattered Path specifically enables low effort high reward cheese like ranged LA + Ele sus + proc sets, or the WW LA + Rip spam that was being debated in the other threads. Pressure builds are balanced when they demand a deliberate rotation to build up enough to overpower the opponent, but not when you get it for free from brainless spam.

Yeah I fully agree that this is one of the valid issues. But there seem to be far more other complaints free-riding on that point. Also two things to keep in mind about Decimus' post, without detracting from the message: Of course a status Mythic will be expected to buff a status spam more effectively than other Mythics. And the damage is still overinflated from the doubled value in PvE the dummy parse example. Common burst builds have been easily able to hit DPS values in the 35-45k range for years with a comparably low number of inputs. Maybe not equally brainless, but still not rocket science.
I find the points regarding Destro Staff (Ele Sus and Crushing Shock) and WW are the most valid in this debate. Very reminiscent of the Savage Werewolf CWep era.
I fully agree that pressure builds should be balanced according to their build-up and not just provide an alternative form of up-front burst. But here it is also very important to emphasize that the great majority of pressure tools have been performing extremely poorly due to the wider availability of Netch and rampant HPS. All the more important to precisely focus on the real offenders.

Suffice it to say that I also think Decimus' suggestions of reworking the Signet are quite good. But even those would inevitably give rise to some extreme interactions. I am not denying that at the end of the day some things will need adjustments. I'd just like to see as many things as possible remain valid, and ideally none overpowered.

xylena · May 6

Vaqual wrote: »

I'd just like to see as many things as possible remain valid, and ideally none overpowered.

The devs can handle that. It's sufficient for us players to say that Shattered Path Signet is pushing too much damage from some very low effort brainless tactics, especially ranged LA + Ele Sus + proc set spam, and this is NOT how pressure builds should be designed. It can be added that it chokes the build meta by obligating an entire playstyle to its use to be competitive.

Highwayman · May 6

xylena wrote: »

It can be added that it chokes the build meta by obligating an entire playstyle to its use to be competitive.

Pshaw! We have all sorts of choices!

Pick any two:

Serpent's Disdain
Threads of War
Unleashed Terror
Draugrkin's Grip
Dragon's Appetite
Plaguebreak

Pick pure class Sorc, Warden or any three:

The Ardent Flame skill line
The Storm Calling skill line
The Herald of the Tome skill line
The Winter's Embrace skill line

Choose a spammable:

Elemental Susceptibility
Blood for Blood

That equals almost 1500 entirely (ahem) different options. Vibrant meta full of choices! Is the bit getting old yet? I know that feeling.

Turtle_Bot · May 6

xylena wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I'd just like to see as many things as possible remain valid, and ideally none overpowered.

The devs can handle that. It's sufficient for us players to say that Shattered Path Signet is pushing too much damage from some very low effort brainless tactics, especially ranged LA + Ele Sus + proc set spam, and this is NOT how pressure builds should be designed. It can be added that it chokes the build meta by obligating an entire playstyle to its use to be competitive.

While I agree it's up to the devs to implement a solution in the end, the new team has definitely been listening to players solutions/suggestions much more as of late (see the week 4 changes to static reverb where 5% base chance and 0.3s cooldown were both suggestions made by commenters here on the forums).

So imo, if we players can at least provide some useful directions/suggestions (within reason) in where we think a change should land, it seems as though ZOS might just be listening/reading and contemplating such suggestions now that certainly seemed to be missing in the past.

xylena · May 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

the new team has definitely been listening to players solutions

Highwayman · May 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I'd just like to see as many things as possible remain valid, and ideally none overpowered.

The devs can handle that. It's sufficient for us players to say that Shattered Path Signet is pushing too much damage from some very low effort brainless tactics, especially ranged LA + Ele Sus + proc set spam, and this is NOT how pressure builds should be designed. It can be added that it chokes the build meta by obligating an entire playstyle to its use to be competitive.

While I agree it's up to the devs to implement a solution in the end, the new team has definitely been listening to players solutions/suggestions much more as of late (see the week 4 changes to static reverb where 5% base chance and 0.3s cooldown were both suggestions made by commenters here on the forums).

So imo, if we players can at least provide some useful directions/suggestions (within reason) in where we think a change should land, it seems as though ZOS might just be listening/reading and contemplating such suggestions now that certainly seemed to be missing in the past.

In all seriousness, I agree that there has been improvement. It seems almost random at times where it's applied, but there is improvement.

I would be excited to see one of the suggestions made by Decimus implemented:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692349/shattered-paths-signet-is-problematic/p1

xylena · May 6

Highwayman wrote: »

Vibrant meta full of choices! Is the bit getting old yet? I know that feeling.

The end result of busted op sets is that Vengeance has better build diversity.

VinnyGambini · May 6

It's seriously hard to understand:

"Increase your damage done with status effects by 1% for every 1 Ultimate you have, up to 170%. Both the current and maximum damage done is halved against Players. While you have 170 or more Ultimate, your Light and Heavy Attacks apply a random status effect, up to once every 4 seconds. Applies Minor Timidity to you, consuming 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds while in combat."

"Increase your damage done with status effects by 1% for every 1 Ultimate you have, up to 170%. Both the current and maximum damage done is quartered against Players. While you have 170 or more Ultimate, your Light and Heavy Attacks apply a random status effect, up to once every 4 seconds. Applies Minor Timidity to you, consuming 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds while in combat."

Why can't ZOS see this?

Seriously @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom what stops you from this easy fix?

YandereGirlfriend · May 6

Just rip the Band-Aid off and give it the full "Against Monsters" treatment.

dark_hunterxmg · May 6

I suggest that both PvE and PvP values on this mythic be reduced significantly. By significantly, I mean by 50% or more. This set seems to break the rules of procs not proccing procs. This set buffs itself, which shouldn't be happening. It's like two5peice plus some. Increases damage with status effects. Also applies said status effects. Don't make us all have to run this thing to be competitive.

Highwayman · May 6

Quoted post has been removed

There's no paywall this time though, right? It's more like the "Queen's Duck" or the bike-shed effect. It seems kind of nonsensical at this point if it's not deliberate though, I'll give you that. Also, "oopse we made it multiplicative instead of additive accidentally again". It's hard to believe, right?

Thumbless_Bot · May 6

Highwayman wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

There's no paywall this time though, right? It's more like the "Queen's Duck" or the bike-shed effect.

I have no idea. I stopped.playing the game about two weeks ago.

Orbital78 · May 6

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

YandereGirlfriend · May 6

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

acanca · May 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

Werent people saying how monomyth was overpowered when it first came out? It wasnt touched then and no one is saying to nerf it now. Signet is also a game changer but the same kind of game changer monomyth was. Signet is fine, it will be good for the meta to have more than a single playstyle be viable. I was honestly getting extremely bored of the burst + sit on shield on backbar with inhale forever meta so Signet is a very welcome change.

YandereGirlfriend · May 6

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

Werent people saying how monomyth was overpowered when it first came out? It wasnt touched then and no one is saying to nerf it now. Signet is also a game changer but the same kind of game changer monomyth was. Signet is fine, it will be good for the meta to have more than a single playstyle be viable. I was honestly getting extremely bored of the burst + sit on shield on backbar with inhale forever meta so Signet is a very welcome change.

More than one playstyle isn't viable at the moment, that's the problem.

PvP is like an Old West movie right now - pulsegank or be pulseganked. The first player to press 'X' wins the fight almost no matter what. Opportunities for counterplay are slim to nonexistent.

When a Mythic can global a 50k troll tank just as easily as it can a 20k Cyro tourist it is pretty obvious that something is wrong.

acanca · May 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

Werent people saying how monomyth was overpowered when it first came out? It wasnt touched then and no one is saying to nerf it now. Signet is also a game changer but the same kind of game changer monomyth was. Signet is fine, it will be good for the meta to have more than a single playstyle be viable. I was honestly getting extremely bored of the burst + sit on shield on backbar with inhale forever meta so Signet is a very welcome change.

More than one playstyle isn't viable at the moment, that's the problem.

PvP is like an Old West movie right now - pulsegank or be pulseganked. The first player to press 'X' wins the fight almost no matter what. Opportunities for counterplay are slim to nonexistent.

When a Mythic can global a 50k troll tank just as easily as it can a 20k Cyro tourist it is pretty obvious that something is wrong.

Pulsegank is more of a funny meme more than anything. Pressure builds are imo good vs tanks but pulsegank isnt really, blocking works for everything they've got including direct damage status effects like concussed or chill, these status effects are also blockable. You can tank multiple pulse gankers on a brawler with inhale if you know they are there and pulse gankers tend to be so squishy that they cant really survive getting focused.

Of course imo non ganker signet builds are way stronger but i still dont think its the only viable way to play the game. I still regularly play on my dk with monomyth as much as i do my signet builds and i think they are all viable. I think given time people will get used to signet just like how they got used to getting two tapped out of nowhere when subclassing and monomyth released.

YandereGirlfriend · May 6

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

Werent people saying how monomyth was overpowered when it first came out? It wasnt touched then and no one is saying to nerf it now. Signet is also a game changer but the same kind of game changer monomyth was. Signet is fine, it will be good for the meta to have more than a single playstyle be viable. I was honestly getting extremely bored of the burst + sit on shield on backbar with inhale forever meta so Signet is a very welcome change.

More than one playstyle isn't viable at the moment, that's the problem.

PvP is like an Old West movie right now - pulsegank or be pulseganked. The first player to press 'X' wins the fight almost no matter what. Opportunities for counterplay are slim to nonexistent.

When a Mythic can global a 50k troll tank just as easily as it can a 20k Cyro tourist it is pretty obvious that something is wrong.

Pulsegank is more of a funny meme more than anything. Pressure builds are imo good vs tanks but pulsegank isnt really, blocking works for everything they've got including direct damage status effects like concussed or chill, these status effects are also blockable. You can tank multiple pulse gankers on a brawler with inhale if you know they are there and pulse gankers tend to be so squishy that they cant really survive getting focused.

Of course imo non ganker signet builds are way stronger but i still dont think its the only viable way to play the game. I still regularly play on my dk with monomyth as much as i do my signet builds and i think they are all viable. I think given time people will get used to signet just like how they got used to getting two tapped out of nowhere when subclassing and monomyth released.

Pulsegank builds are good against anything.

What makes it even more ludicrous is that it's like baby's first gank build with such a low skill floor to be effective with. If this was some melee spec with actual risk or commitment involved, then that would be one thing. Ditto for if it involved the use of an ult so that it wasn't completely spammable.

But instead you can backline and deal that overtuned damage from 35m+ away. Which is completely degenerate gameplay.

I am all for skilled ganking (and bombing). But this ain't that.

acanca · May 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Mythics should be powerful, it would be nice to see some of the less used mythics get some attention to make them more valued.

Powerful in PvE at least.

When Velothi was on the PTS back in the day it was grossly overtuned and received a comparable reaction to Signet from PvP mains. The wise devs of those days then chose to make it PvE-only with "Against Monsters" which completely solved the issue. The PvE crowd could go nuts with a fun new toy while the PvP community dodged what would have been a comically overpowered boondoggle.

TLDR; "Against Monsters" is The Way.

Werent people saying how monomyth was overpowered when it first came out? It wasnt touched then and no one is saying to nerf it now. Signet is also a game changer but the same kind of game changer monomyth was. Signet is fine, it will be good for the meta to have more than a single playstyle be viable. I was honestly getting extremely bored of the burst + sit on shield on backbar with inhale forever meta so Signet is a very welcome change.

More than one playstyle isn't viable at the moment, that's the problem.

PvP is like an Old West movie right now - pulsegank or be pulseganked. The first player to press 'X' wins the fight almost no matter what. Opportunities for counterplay are slim to nonexistent.

When a Mythic can global a 50k troll tank just as easily as it can a 20k Cyro tourist it is pretty obvious that something is wrong.

Pulsegank is more of a funny meme more than anything. Pressure builds are imo good vs tanks but pulsegank isnt really, blocking works for everything they've got including direct damage status effects like concussed or chill, these status effects are also blockable. You can tank multiple pulse gankers on a brawler with inhale if you know they are there and pulse gankers tend to be so squishy that they cant really survive getting focused.

Of course imo non ganker signet builds are way stronger but i still dont think its the only viable way to play the game. I still regularly play on my dk with monomyth as much as i do my signet builds and i think they are all viable. I think given time people will get used to signet just like how they got used to getting two tapped out of nowhere when subclassing and monomyth released.

Pulsegank builds are good against anything.

What makes it even more ludicrous is that it's like baby's first gank build with such a low skill floor to be effective with. If this was some melee spec with actual risk or commitment involved, then that would be one thing. Ditto for if it involved the use of an ult so that it wasn't completely spammable.

But instead you can backline and deal that overtuned damage from 35m+ away. Which is completely degenerate gameplay.

I am all for skilled ganking (and bombing). But this ain't that.

You can also sit 35+m away and do overtuned damage with full pve set-up. Again i disagree that pulse gank is good vs everything, maybe if you are unbuffed and not expecting a fight etc sure. But again, you can survive multiple pulse gankers doing full combo out in the open almost indefinitely as long as you know they are there because i've also done it myself. And they are usually so paper that they cant even deal with you using ele sus back on a brawler not even built for ranged pvp.

Give it one week tops and you'll see most people move away from pulse ganking to actual buils that can take a hit because they are genuinely just better.