Let's tidy up the numbers a bit

xylena

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Boss hits for 70k. Both die. Get it?!

The next boss attack deals 50k raw damage.

Build #1 takes 50k and dies.

Build #2 takes 25k and lives.

Umbracat449

Mashille wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

But you can't start with 2,000 health. At level 5 you aren't fighting level 5 mobs, you are fighting level 50 160CP mobs.

I think there's a miscommunication here. Prior to update 1.6 in 2015, all ESO's stats were lower by a factor of 10. What is now 20,000 health, prior to update 1.6 was 2,000 health. And what is now 7,000 damage, was 700 damage etc.

So, even assuming the One Tamriel scaling is the same, if the numbers were brought back to where they were in 2015 it would feel less odd. As players would have 2,000 or 3,000 health rather than 20,000 or 30,000 etc.

What's your yardstick so '2000' health is more meaningful than '20,000'. Both of those are totally arbitrary concepts.


And given the sheer number of buffs and debuts and procs aha passives, a larger number can cope with all effects hitting it and not go into negative.

Umbracat449

Gabriel_H wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Lets say you have two scenarios. 33k and 50% mitigation, and 26.4k and 40% mitigation. Add Minor Protection (5%).

Please stop here. Multiplicative DR works like this:

EHP = (HP / (1-DR1)) * (HP / (1-DR2)) * (HP / (1-DR3))...

So for your example of 26k armor and Minor Protection:

EHP = (HP / (1-0.4)) * (HP / (1-0.05))

So your Armor multiplies your EHP by a factor of 1.66, then your Protection multiples that resulit by a factor of 1.05, meaning your final EHP is 1.75x your base HP. Notice that the increase in EHP factor was 0.09 not 0.05 so it is clearly NOT diminishing returns.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I have no idea what the heck is being said in this. I think this just supports OPs point

Correct.

Effective Hit Points are irrelevent outside of a spreadsheet. Actual gameplay does not work that way.

A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 45,000 at 33k and no buffs.
A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 42,750 at 33k and Minor Prot - a 2.25% reduction on a 5% buff
A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 38,475 at 33k with Minor Prot and Major Prot - a 4.275% reduction on a 10% buff

i.e. diminishing returns.

Where are you getting this math from.

I don't understand why an economic concept is being introduced into explanations of the coded mathematics..

xylena

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Where are you getting this math from.

Nowhere, he's extremely wrong and just making things up at this point.

I'm happy to answer questions about EHP with proof, but that's a bit off topic. It does show how quickly the concepts behind the numbers can become more and abstract and less intuitive, making it even more important for the devs to use "easy" numbers to lighten the math load.

Gabriel_H

xylena wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Boss hits for 70k. Both die. Get it?!

The next boss attack deals 50k raw damage.

Build #1 takes 50k and dies.

Build #2 takes 25k and lives.

The difference is like with EHP your numbers are theorectical, whereas mine are puiled from actual content. The very definition of EHP is a theorectical concept - as I said a spreadhseet calculation. It will not help you in content especially for a tank.

Thinking adding extra mitigation increasing your EHP will help is going to be detrimental to a build, because extra mitigation isn't always the answer. ESO is an opportunity cost game - taking one thing usually means you miss out on another thing. Somebody choosing to slot Major Protection (as an example) thinking 'well it increases my EHP so that's good' isn't going to help them in block heavy fights, or fights where the boss does high heavy attack damage and they already have high mitigation. A skill that helps regen, or mobility, or a build that supports dodging may be a better option.

Gabriel_H

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Lets say you have two scenarios. 33k and 50% mitigation, and 26.4k and 40% mitigation. Add Minor Protection (5%).

Please stop here. Multiplicative DR works like this:

EHP = (HP / (1-DR1)) * (HP / (1-DR2)) * (HP / (1-DR3))...

So for your example of 26k armor and Minor Protection:

EHP = (HP / (1-0.4)) * (HP / (1-0.05))

So your Armor multiplies your EHP by a factor of 1.66, then your Protection multiples that resulit by a factor of 1.05, meaning your final EHP is 1.75x your base HP. Notice that the increase in EHP factor was 0.09 not 0.05 so it is clearly NOT diminishing returns.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I have no idea what the heck is being said in this. I think this just supports OPs point

Correct.

Effective Hit Points are irrelevent outside of a spreadsheet. Actual gameplay does not work that way.

A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 45,000 at 33k and no buffs.
A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 42,750 at 33k and Minor Prot - a 2.25% reduction on a 5% buff
A boss hitting for 100,000 unmitigated hits for 38,475 at 33k with Minor Prot and Major Prot - a 4.275% reduction on a 10% buff

i.e. diminishing returns.

Where are you getting this math from.

I don't understand why an economic concept is being introduced into explanations of the coded mathematics..

Eh? Diminishing returns as a concept exists all over the place, not just economics. It's found in everything from biology to mathematics to every day life. Put simple it is: Diminishing returns mean you are getting less benefit per unit.

The damage mitigation formula in ESO is multiplactive. They made it this way so that you can never achieve 100% damage mitigation. That is because each new source of damage mitigation awards less than the previous one per 1%.

As for my numbers:

100,000 boss hit
33,000 resistance = 33,000 / 66,000 * 100 = 50% damage reduction (raw)
Minor Protection = 5% damage reduction (raw)
Major Protection = 10% damage reduction (raw)
Hidden Damage Reduction = 10% damage reduction (raw)

1) Damge Taken = 100,000 * ((1 - 0.50) = 50,000
2) Damge Taken = 100,000 * ((1 - 0.50) * (1 - 0.05) = 47,500
3) Damge Taken = 100,000 * ((1 - 0.50) * (1 - 0.05) * (1 - 0.10) = 42,750
4) Damge Taken = 100,000 * ((1 - 0.50) * (1 - 0.05) * (1 - 0.10) * (1 - 0.10)) = 38,475

At step 3 10% reduction is added reducing damage by 4,750
At step 4 another 10% reduction is added reducing damage by 4,275

The first 10% reduces damage by 475 per 1%
The second 20% reduces damage by 427.50 per 1%

i.e. the return per 1% reduces the more sources you add - it diminishes

illutian

To the OP:

How does "making the number look pretty" make it easier to understand?

You still don't know what 6000 Resistance means. Other than it'll either add or subtract, and in most cases, cancel out (especially in PVP).

New players literally do not care about 'the math' behind a game. "2% block on this shield...sounds good to me!" That's literally all they think of.

Those that do care about the numbers are going to nerd out on them no matter how they look.

....well....unless Zenny goes crazy and starts adding decimals that go to ten-thousandths. xD

If you want to make it easier. It'd be better for the game to establish if 1pt of Physical Resistance equates to 1pt of damage subtracted from a physical attack. Right now, all I know is "bigger number better".

You want an easier way to understand the numbers? Push the devs to bake in a Percentage readout. I found it in addon.
This was an issue with WoW after they went to 'ratings' for stats like Block, Dodge, Parry, etc. It was easier to see "Increases Parry chance by 1%" than "Increases Parry rating by 113".

Mashille

@illutian Don't underestimate the power and appeal of making small things look cleaner and neater. My main point is that the long-winded specific numbers ESO uses are pointless and may as well be tidied up into rounder nicer looking numbers.

Having an ability tooltip increase armour by "5948" just comes across as untidy and amateur in a game of this budget and scale.

Obviously I'd prefer them rebuild the system from the ground up so it's easier to understand and more intuitive for players but I doubt I'll get that any time soon so in the meantime I'll settle for prettier tooltips and more rounded numbers.

illutian

Mashille wrote: »

@illutian Don't underestimate the power and appeal of making small things look cleaner and neater. My main point is that the long-winded specific numbers ESO uses are pointless and may as well be tidied up into rounder nicer looking numbers.

Having an ability tooltip increase armour by "5948" just comes across as untidy and amateur in a game of this budget and scale.

Obviously I'd prefer them rebuild the system from the ground up so it's easier to understand and more intuitive for players but I doubt I'll get that any time soon so in the meantime I'll settle for prettier tooltips and more rounded numbers.

You're overlooking the issue. The numbers don't mean anything. What does 5984 Armor get me? 5984 Physical Resist? Okay. What does that get me? Do I reduce incoming damage by 5984 if it's physical? Nope, apparently that gets me ~6% reduction in physical damage (using USEP's builder and just putting armor on to 6020).

Seeing 'random bit of numbers' in a tooltip isn't what's confusing players. It's not knowing how those numbers relate to the game.

Another thing to consider is the Item Quality multiplier. I'm sure someone's worked out something like "oh Epic quality is 1.75 times the base value, which is what's used for Common quality". Or some such. - Which, btw, would take that 6000; assuming that was the 'common grade' amount and make it 6105 for the Epic quality.