Dragonknight Rework?

Vulkunne

Ardent Flame

Radiate77 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

If they do away with Roar, Leap or Dragon Blood... actually most DK skills then you may as well just call it something else and move on.

They... didn't... though. At least not in the leaks.

The negativity is getting annoying.

I’d rather people who identify as generally unhappy, to just go right ahead and mute all of my threads & polls. I can’t express enough how non-productive it is to get messages like this one…

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Where's the poll option that allows us to indicate that it doesn't matter because we dont trust ZOS to make changes that will make it better?

Like how do you even engage with that?

There’s nothing I, or anyone, could say to convince them to “trust ZOS” even when we have the baseline of changes visible to us, and surprise surprise… they are all good.

So respectfully, I wonder, why even bother playing the game if you have no trust in the team making it? And why jump into a conversation on their forum just to tell someone that they want no part in the very conversation they jumped in on. 😂

Or you can just let them say their peace and move on. Add value in your own way. One thing is for certain; everyone is not always going to agree. People are people and they will be people. You and I can't change that. Be the change you would like to see for the world is my suggestion. I automatically assume no one is going to agree with me or in some instances 'do the right thing' so it's better to plan for the worst and plan for the best.

My expectations regarding other opinions sit on solid ground.

BardokRedSnow

Vulkunne wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

If they do away with Roar, Leap or Dragon Blood... actually most DK skills then you may as well just call it something else and move on.

They... didn't... though. At least not in the leaks.

Roar was nerfed and DK wings was completely changed to be a generic skill, among other changes. Leap consistently fails to launch.

Having played a DK for most of the game's existence I suppose it's a point of contention for me. As I've said many times in other posts, I'm very optimistic about upcoming changes, yet, especially with a DK there are some skills that make the class what it is. Like nerve points. Combine the previous nerfs with things like Vengeance creating a bottleneck for each class and I think a little concern is completely justified.

In general sure, but based off the changes we’ve seen proposed alone, I don’t think so. Could that change in the future, clearly but there’s no reason to think they’d *remove* aspects of the class that make it what it is in attempt to revive class identity.

Especially when overall the changes presented from where DK is now are all much needed buffs besides maybe flames of oblivion depending how you use it.

When there’s more reason to be concerned I will be here to complain lol trust me.

Radiate77

Earthen Heart

I wonder if we’ll get a teaser for our new Dragonknight skills come January 7th.

Renato90085

Radiate77 wrote: »

I wonder if we’ll get a teaser for our new Dragonknight skills come January 7th.

yep,and new FX like fiery grip

Hamish999

I can't wait for ZOS to ruin DK even more. I don't think any class has been nerfed more in the 8+ years I've been playing ESO.

Radiate77

Earthen Heart

Hamish999 wrote: »

I can't wait for ZOS to ruin DK even more. I don't think any class has been nerfed more in the 8+ years I've been playing ESO.

Templar would love to buy you a drink.
Necromancer has a story to tell you.
Sorcerer is buried out back.

katanagirl1

Hamish999 wrote: »

I can't wait for ZOS to ruin DK even more. I don't think any class has been nerfed more in the 8+ years I've been playing ESO.

Nightblade

Radiate77

Earthen Heart

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Hamish999 wrote: »

I can't wait for ZOS to ruin DK even more. I don't think any class has been nerfed more in the 8+ years I've been playing ESO.

Nightblade

Honestly yeah, Nightblade has had a hard go of it in PvE for longer than anyone.

Horace-Wimp

Radiate77 wrote: »

Now that we know Dragonknight will be our first class on the chopping block, what Skill Line do you guys feel is too strong, too weak, or too weird?

I am curious to hear any reasons!
Ex. Corrosive Armor should be Corrosive Weapons because of XYZ… ect

For me, you need another vote option: All of the above - Too weak.

I HATE Dragonknight. It is simply no fun to play. It has NO ranged abilities for DPS, NO melee abilities either and it's self heals are atrocious.. I REALLY wish I could change my DK to a Sorcerer. At least Sorcerer has all of the above WITHOUT subclassing, something else that needs a serious rework.

Radiate77

Earthen Heart

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Now that we know Dragonknight will be our first class on the chopping block, what Skill Line do you guys feel is too strong, too weak, or too weird?

I am curious to hear any reasons!
Ex. Corrosive Armor should be Corrosive Weapons because of XYZ… ect

For me, you need another vote option: All of the above - Too weak.

I HATE Dragonknight. It is simply no fun to play. It has NO ranged abilities for DPS, NO melee abilities either and it's self heals are atrocious.. I REALLY wish I could change my DK to a Sorcerer. At least Sorcerer has all of the above WITHOUT subclassing, something else that needs a serious rework.

I’m sure some DK mains would love to debate those things with you, but yeah I wholesomely agree that the Ranged kit is pretty lacking, and would love if at least one morph of Stonefist was a viable skill outside of 12-man groups.

Part of the reason I went with Earthen Heart.

Turtle_Bot

Radiate77 wrote: »

Hamish999 wrote: »

I can't wait for ZOS to ruin DK even more. I don't think any class has been nerfed more in the 8+ years I've been playing ESO.

Templar would love to buy you a drink.
Necromancer has a story to tell you.
Sorcerer is buried out back.

Non-pet sorcerer is nothing but a long forgotten memory, an ancient tale that has been slowly lost to the sands of time.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I’m sure some DK mains would love to debate those things with you, but yeah I wholesomely agree that the Ranged kit is pretty lacking, and would love if at least one morph of Stonefist was a viable skill outside of 12-man groups.

Part of the reason I went with Earthen Heart.

I'm not a DK main (although I have played a lot of the class over the years).

While DK has always lacked in ranged combat (it's a melee brawler class), DK has a lot of really strong melee abilities (whip, breath, FoO, standard, talons to name a few) and leap is still one of the most satisfying/fun abilities in the game to use when it works (too bad it's in the tank? line, not the DPS line).

DK (imo) suffers from similar issues as templar and sorcerer, designed for the past (where it was important to bring classes), not for the modern game (where it's more important to bring individual skill lines instead).
Templar is still mostly healer/DPS with too many DPS skills to have all of them in a single line.
DK is still mostly tank/DPS, but too many skills for both roles to have all of them within single lines.
Sorc is just a complete mess due to ZOS forcing the pets onto the class to the detriment of everything else instead of creating a separate pet class.
NB is the only "base class" that has been properly updated to reflect this modern design of each line filling a specific role just like the DLC classes.

DK does suffer from one other issue though, that being a DoT based class living under the DoT standardization ruleset implemented in U35. However, DK does have one advantage over other classes though (except Arcanist), that being lots of AoE and inherent survivability to make being in melee range not as punishing.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Honestly yeah, Nightblade has had a hard go of it in PvE for longer than anyone.

NB's PvE issues stem from the themes it has, which naturally don't lean towards sustained area DPS that is required for modern PvE encounters. However in PvP where burst is king and you want that burst as fast as possible, NB has reigned as the top dog (or near enough to it) for the games entire life-span.

A blood mage theme would have helped alleviate these PvE DPS issues, but ZOS made that sub-theme into the healer line for NB, so it doesn't really work for DPS.

The main way (imo) ZOS could fix NB for PvE would be to focus assassination more on the poison sub-theme of assassins rather than the dagger approach. This allow some flexibility to introduce DoTs into the DPS line and reduce the over-dependence on burst. Make Spec bow the ultimate (since it deals ultimate levels of damage anyway) and that can be the "kill shot" of the assassin theme, then rework incap into a more DoT focused debuff ability, maybe it spreads to nearby enemies to give NB DPS some in-class cleave to pair with teleport strike.

Nemesis7884

Honestly i am not a big fan of the earth and the dragon skill line...

I dont see any Akaviri connection...i would change a lot of skills and animations in the dragon line to make them actually look more like martial arts inspired skills with a dragonic theme...

Some npc have really cool looking martial arts move, even npc dragon knights, for example this kind of rotating firy jump attack towards you that looks awesome...

GloatingSwine

AvalonRanger wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s really not a question of too weak/strong, it’s only an issue cause of subclassing.

Pure DK before subclassing was fine.
But if they’re shooting to rebalance lines based on dmg/tank/heal then Earthen Heart would be the outlier as far as competitiveness goes compared to other healing skill lines like green balance.

As a tank main player, DK is perfect class. My tank is pure DK, and I don't need changing any more.

My tank started on a DK.

It has one DK skill left, Stone Giant. Everything else is either Warden, Necro, Weapon, or Scribed.

Winter's Embrace does everything Draconic Power does but better, and since they killed Combustion for sustain and scribing let you build a better chains than Grasp there's no reason to keep Ardent Flame and AoE Major Breach/Minor Vuln/Synergy is right there on Boneyard and major vuln from Colossus.

GloatingSwine

Also, I think these changes that are leaked do what I feared and harm or even kill DK for tanking.

New Draconic Power is still just worse than Winter's Embrace but now it also has the things you used to use Earthen Heart for so you've got to take it if you want to provide some of the same team utility (especially minor brutality being class unique so very useful to bring) and you need to slot abilities from it to benefit from new Battle Roar, so that means bar greed for skills that are less useful than other ones you could be using.

You will just be less good than you could be at providing team utility because you've lost all those bonuses to Chill and its attendant Brittle/Maim *and* your resistance passive left that line onto Earthen Heart so now you've got to dump more armour traits off of Divines if you want to keep resists. Or take Winter's Embrace and have a better version of every tank tool in Draconic Power, a better self heal, better Chill application, cheaper Major Resolve that hits everyone, a cheaper immobilise that, you guessed it, also applies Chill.


If you're pureclass you'll be providing very slightly better team utility than you were because of new Molten Armaments* and Coagulating Blood, but you'll still be less useful to the team than a subclassed tank and less useful than you were before the changes if you were already subclassing for tank utility.


*Except everyone will still be bringing their own major brut/sorc because it's so easy to find under every rock and pebble so it's only the new fire tick you'd bring that for.

Personofsecrets

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Also, I think these changes that are leaked do what I feared and harm or even kill DK for tanking.

New Draconic Power is still just worse than Winter's Embrace but now it also has the things you used to use Earthen Heart for so you've got to take it if you want to provide some of the same team utility (especially minor brutality being class unique so very useful to bring) and you need to slot abilities from it to benefit from new Battle Roar, so that means bar greed for skills that are less useful than other ones you could be using.

You will just be less good than you could be at providing team utility because you've lost all those bonuses to Chill and its attendant Brittle/Maim *and* your resistance passive left that line onto Earthen Heart so now you've got to dump more armour traits off of Divines if you want to keep resists. Or take Winter's Embrace and have a better version of every tank tool in Draconic Power, a better self heal, better Chill application, cheaper Major Resolve that hits everyone, a cheaper immobilise that, you guessed it, also applies Chill.


If you're pureclass you'll be providing very slightly better team utility than you were because of new Molten Armaments* and Coagulating Blood, but you'll still be less useful to the team than a subclassed tank and less useful than you were before the changes if you were already subclassing for tank utility.


*Except everyone will still be bringing their own major brut/sorc because it's so easy to find under every rock and pebble so it's only the new fire tick you'd bring that for.

I have a feeling that having a DK line for tanks is about to be killed off and for no reason than the devs wanting to fiddle around with things instead of getting the big picture.

Cooperharley

I mean, they'll re-work all of it. My gripe with this announcement is the shear amount of time it'll take them to do all 7 classes. With the way classes feel, they need to have these changes out in a polished manner in a few updates or less. Not over the course of a couple years. How many players who are hanging on by a thread at this point will wait that long?

These re-works also should've been done (IMO) prior to subclassing. Fix the foundation first & then move on towards freedom/more choices/whatever the vision was.

Radiate77

Earthen Heart

Cooperharley wrote: »

I mean, they'll re-work all of it. My gripe with this announcement is the shear amount of time it'll take them to do all 7 classes. With the way classes feel, they need to have these changes out in a polished manner in a few updates or less. Not over the course of a couple years. How many players who are hanging on by a thread at this point will wait that long?

This is a major concern of mine too. These changes need to roll out each patch, bi-monthly at best, my impression from the stream is that we could have entire patches without a finished class rework… and that is entirely unacceptable.

Balance has been driving people away from the game for over a decade now, it’s time for ZOS to take advantage of their new leadership, and from all accounts, Jo is pretty great.

Let’s see some priority.

Personofsecrets

I feel like any changes will amount to a giant bait and switch where the niche things that DK does become less viable and useful for endgame tank play.

Arcanist feels cool because it smacks, not because it was tirelessly fiddled around with on some spreadsheets until it was deemed "balanced."

GloatingSwine

Personofsecrets wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Also, I think these changes that are leaked do what I feared and harm or even kill DK for tanking.

New Draconic Power is still just worse than Winter's Embrace but now it also has the things you used to use Earthen Heart for so you've got to take it if you want to provide some of the same team utility (especially minor brutality being class unique so very useful to bring) and you need to slot abilities from it to benefit from new Battle Roar, so that means bar greed for skills that are less useful than other ones you could be using.

You will just be less good than you could be at providing team utility because you've lost all those bonuses to Chill and its attendant Brittle/Maim *and* your resistance passive left that line onto Earthen Heart so now you've got to dump more armour traits off of Divines if you want to keep resists. Or take Winter's Embrace and have a better version of every tank tool in Draconic Power, a better self heal, better Chill application, cheaper Major Resolve that hits everyone, a cheaper immobilise that, you guessed it, also applies Chill.


If you're pureclass you'll be providing very slightly better team utility than you were because of new Molten Armaments* and Coagulating Blood, but you'll still be less useful to the team than a subclassed tank and less useful than you were before the changes if you were already subclassing for tank utility.


*Except everyone will still be bringing their own major brut/sorc because it's so easy to find under every rock and pebble so it's only the new fire tick you'd bring that for.

I have a feeling that having a DK line for tanks is about to be killed off and for no reason than the devs wanting to fiddle around with things instead of getting the big picture.

Well Draconic Power will be "the tank line" for DK, but the problem is that Chilled is overloaded, providing Minor Brittle and Minor Maim and Minor Breach when it gets comboed with an ice staff and so for doing the job a tank needs to do Winter's Embrace is Just Better Forever because it has bonuses to applying Chilled meaning you can do it with more skills (like Wall into Boneyard for AoE).

Like compare them:
Hardened Armour is more expensive than Expansive Frost Cloak because it pays the damage shield tax, the returned damage scales on a capped value so it has a strict upper limit, and EFC hits everyone.

Choking Talons is more expensive than Gripping Shards for the sake of a synergy, Shards has a high chance to produce Chilled which means it also gives Maim as an incidental ability.

Dragon Blood costs the same as Polar Wind, but because it scales off missing health it's less reliable as a refill from low to full, and Polar hits someone else as well.

Meanwhile Winter's Embrace gets the same value as the two good passives from Draconic (block value and resistance) but also gets 250% chance to inflict Chilled, and that stacks with all the other +chances to inflict like with an Ice Staff and Flawless Ritual.

So what you need for a non-pureclass tank now is something that does things Winter's Embrace doesn't that aren't already getting done by other characters. And with these changes DK isn't going to have that any more, because the DK line you use on a tank isn't Draconic Power it's Earthen Heart, the things they're taking off Earthen onto Draconic won't make Draconic worth taking over Winter's Embrace but will make Earthen Heart no good as a utility line for tanks. It might now be a utility line for healers with the circle that looks like it provides ult to people standing in it, but not for tanks.