ESO PvP (A Red Sun Rises)

Vulkunne

aetherix8 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

And so, ZOS, I realize this may not be well received by all. I know what people think about me. But I also realize, in spite of everything, we cannot continue to PvP by going down this road without accountability. Is some of it on ZOS, why sure it is. But all of it no. Some of the players are contributing to everyone else who's not uh... on their level... as they have said themselves, both on the forums and in game. Make no mistake and listen close. The reason we are not logging into Cyrodiil PvP anymore is not because of ZOS. It's because of you. It's because of your Toxic and un-sportsman like behavior. It's because many of you have to be on top. You have put yourselves on this uh 'clandestine saddle' and rode the faction and ultimately everyone else there into the ground with your Rush of Agony abuse, as well as abusing people's time in other ways such as standing around watching them die while your ball group sits there all smug and coy.

I mostly agree with your OP, but I think that you put too much fault on players and too little on ZOS. I mean, we can complain about “un-sportsman like behaviour” all we want, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is a part of human nature and can be particularly pronounced in some individuals. There will always be trolls, griefers, or people who “have to be on top” for as long as humanity exists. We will encounter them in any version of Cyrodiil.

ZOS can’t change human nature, but they definitely can and should control their own created environment much better than during the first 10 years in order to reign in all the toxic behaviour. Right now, there are just too many broken combinations of systems that give some players, grouped or not, way too much power. In-game imbalance exacerbates the inherent toxicity of PvP (toxicity is also present in PvE, in case that needs to be stated).

That brings me to another thing you mentioned, an example on page 2. I just can’t understand why you hate ballgroups so much. My own experience with ballgroups tells me that the picture is very much nuanced; my parcours, zergling > pug lead > zergsurfer >, is exactly where ballgroups are active too, and I can tell that they are all different. Some of them play mostly for one faction, while others switch factions every day (RW campaign) – one day they help you retake scrolls, the next they farm you. Some of them care about the campaign and the score, others only want to farm AP. Sometimes they chase solos from keep to keep, or run in circles around resource towers, that’s more or less a common trait. Sometimes it is fun to ballgrpsurf as well. And I have some fond memories of my faction ballgroups saving the day from time to time, like when we randoms were outnumbered while defending a temple, and we would have lost this scroll if they didn’t show up and bombed the enemy zerg (spectacular DDK ). I also remember some AD ballgroups trolling their own faction by never bringing scrolls home, but instead using them as bait for farming players all around the map. A behaviour that should be banned as it is destructive to faction cohesion and results in lower population over time for the affected faction.

I believe it is pointless to ask trolls and griefers to become decent people all of a sudden. Rather keep requesting some major balance adjustments from ZOS, to make group play in PvP less powerful than what is required in end game PvE, etc. Also, there is the reporting tool for some particularly egregious toxicity, which can include undermining one’s faction effort for a selfish play style.

@aetherix8

Thank you for your reply, thanks for sharing your experiences, as well as your thoughtful considerations for this thread.

I have discussed some of what had happened in previous conversations. It is understood that not everyone has umm had to deal with some of the same things. However, I do believe the time has come now to 'move on' from that conversation and offer the matter to karma for resolution. Hopefully ZOS can look at the situation in a very realistic, professional and fair way. Cause you have to remember I'm not alone in this; others are also not happy about it.

That said, I never (or at least very rarely) ask others to do what I am not willing to do myself. In this matter with the ball groups and so forth, I literally can do nothing. My fate in game at least, is not even in my own hands. The first mistake I make is logging in to a server where they are dominant and active. Therefore, the burden of fixing this problem does fall on ZOS, so yes in that you are also right. Because there's literally again, nothing I can do. However, as it where another matter has become problematic, which requires much of my attention for now and so I can and will do something about that.

However, I find it interesting you mention human nature, so on, and then you asked very respectfully regarding my motivations. And so rather than me continue typing on and on umm I'll let a genuine professor of the humanities provide us with a concise and more direct answer...

“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”

― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

aetherix8

Vulkunne wrote: »

@aetherix8

Thank you for your reply, thanks for sharing your experiences, as well as your thoughtful considerations for this thread.

I have discussed some of what had happened in previous conversations. It is understood that not everyone has umm had to deal with some of the same things. However, I do believe the time has come now to 'move on' from that conversation and offer the matter to karma for resolution. Hopefully ZOS can look at the situation in a very realistic, professional and fair way. Cause you have to remember I'm not alone in this; others are also not happy about it.

That said, I never (or at least very rarely) ask others to do what I am not willing to do myself. In this matter with the ball groups and so forth, I literally can do nothing. My fate in game at least, is not even in my own hands. The first mistake I make is logging in to a server where they are dominant and active. Therefore, the burden of fixing this problem does fall on ZOS, so yes in that you are also right. Because there's literally again, nothing I can do. However, as it where another matter has become problematic, which requires much of my attention for now and so I can and will do something about that.

We all have differing experiences, and even if we happened to live through the exact same situation, we would have reacted to it differently as well. I'm aware that many players complain about ballgroups - there is no way to have any PvP related discussion without it devolving at some point into analyzing the ballgrps issue all over again. And I don't try to undermine your experience; all I'm saying is that ZOS needs to do better to curb toxicity, and balancing the game aka taking away OP tools and broken combinations, would be a step in the right direction.

Vulkunne wrote: »

However, I find it interesting you mention human nature, so on, and then you asked very respectfully regarding my motivations. And so rather than me continue typing on and on umm I'll let a genuine professor of the humanities provide us with a concise and more direct answer...

“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”

― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

In a way, I was relieved to read "I do believe the time has come now to 'move on' from that conversation and offer the matter to karma for resolution." But then you end your post with "revenge". They are mutually exclusive; karma doesn't require you to do anything, while revenge is an action to undertake. Revenge, and associated pain, grudge, disappointment, etc., must be cultivated for it to come to fruition, and it can be more destructive to the person attached to their revenge than to their arch enemy. There is a good example in West Weald - Marcan Caelum

So, to answer your question/quote: personally, I find the mindset "when they go low, we go high" (Michelle Obama) to be a more beneficial approach.

Yudo

Theignson wrote: »

I think Zerodil could be hugely improved with just a few ez changes:
1) RoA: can only cast every 30 seconds, causes cc immunity, 8m range.
2) VD: only procs for solo players. Back to high risk high reward
3) warden charm: delete it and find something else
4) group heals only apply to 3 players, same with shields
5) you can only have two stacked HOTS : one from yourself and one from another player

I would love playing under these conditions. True, ball groups could still 12v1 but the risk reward ratio would be improved

This is the type of direction I expected, especially with so much time spent into Vengeance to learn what could be done to improve GH. Fixing obvious pinpoints and imbalances + trying to improve performance, even if not fully fixed. Would be a lot of fun to come back and play.

Lucasl402

Yudo wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I think Zerodil could be hugely improved with just a few ez changes:
1) RoA: can only cast every 30 seconds, causes cc immunity, 8m range.
2) VD: only procs for solo players. Back to high risk high reward
3) warden charm: delete it and find something else
4) group heals only apply to 3 players, same with shields
5) you can only have two stacked HOTS : one from yourself and one from another player

I would love playing under these conditions. True, ball groups could still 12v1 but the risk reward ratio would be improved

This is the type of direction I expected, especially with so much time spent into Vengeance to learn what could be done to improve GH. Fixing obvious pinpoints and imbalances + trying to improve performance, even if not fully fixed. Would be a lot of fun to come back and play.

And making a few of these small changes would surely be easier, faster and less time consuming than developing a whole new system from scratch.

Vengeance and subclassing makes me wonder if ZOS was given an ultimatum by MS; make the game self sustainable in the next year. In other words, put the game into maintenance mode so it doesn't require any noteworthy company investment going forward.

Vulkunne

aetherix8 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

@aetherix8

Thank you for your reply, thanks for sharing your experiences, as well as your thoughtful considerations for this thread.

I have discussed some of what had happened in previous conversations. It is understood that not everyone has umm had to deal with some of the same things. However, I do believe the time has come now to 'move on' from that conversation and offer the matter to karma for resolution. Hopefully ZOS can look at the situation in a very realistic, professional and fair way. Cause you have to remember I'm not alone in this; others are also not happy about it.

That said, I never (or at least very rarely) ask others to do what I am not willing to do myself. In this matter with the ball groups and so forth, I literally can do nothing. My fate in game at least, is not even in my own hands. The first mistake I make is logging in to a server where they are dominant and active. Therefore, the burden of fixing this problem does fall on ZOS, so yes in that you are also right. Because there's literally again, nothing I can do. However, as it where another matter has become problematic, which requires much of my attention for now and so I can and will do something about that.

We all have differing experiences, and even if we happened to live through the exact same situation, we would have reacted to it differently as well. I'm aware that many players complain about ballgroups - there is no way to have any PvP related discussion without it devolving at some point into analyzing the ballgrps issue all over again. And I don't try to undermine your experience; all I'm saying is that ZOS needs to do better to curb toxicity, and balancing the game aka taking away OP tools and broken combinations, would be a step in the right direction.

Vulkunne wrote: »

However, I find it interesting you mention human nature, so on, and then you asked very respectfully regarding my motivations. And so rather than me continue typing on and on umm I'll let a genuine professor of the humanities provide us with a concise and more direct answer...

“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”

― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

In a way, I was relieved to read "I do believe the time has come now to 'move on' from that conversation and offer the matter to karma for resolution." But then you end your post with "revenge". They are mutually exclusive; karma doesn't require you to do anything, while revenge is an action to undertake. Revenge, and associated pain, grudge, disappointment, etc., must be cultivated for it to come to fruition, and it can be more destructive to the person attached to their revenge than to their arch enemy. There is a good example in West Weald - Marcan Caelum

So, to answer your question/quote: personally, I find the mindset "when they go low, we go high" (Michelle Obama) to be a more beneficial approach.

Well, that's Shakespeare. But anyways, yeah, that's why we're having this discussion. Which ultimately, the argument, coming from the bestest of intentions and honorable and true... hasn't proven quite as successful as was expected. Why won't they listen @aetherix8 hmm? Or is it just they don't like the messenger. Some people are like that and so, it's for this reason I have no choice but to consider every possibility.

Instead, knowing this would happen, I chose to stand my ground... knowing full well how it be. And that action alone, doesn't make me a saint, it doesn't buy me any new friends, but along the way, dealing with this consistent annoyance has allowed for some discoveries on this end over others sitting in quiet lines staying silent. Silence is acceptance.

Vulkunne

aetherix8 wrote: »

@aetherix8
...
So, to answer your question/quote: personally, I find the mindset "when they go low, we go high" (Michelle Obama) to be a more beneficial approach.

Was thinking about this post and all after... actually reading about something else. Now from before you had said you might have reacted differently and then later described having a mindset about going high and all. Let me ask a question. Let's talk about ball groups for a moment. When you're in Cyrodiil and you're just playing the game ok. You're just helping the faction, minding your own business relatively speaking and then, this ball group who you don't know, does the following over at least two days:

1) Stands there while you fight another faction. And does this like at least twice. Like a couple of you are fighting and they just stand there, not healing throwing out heals. Just standing there, they fight but stop fighting when you or others are around.
2) Entire uh 'other other faction' is sitting on Ash, ready to siege. You arrive as their only defense. Ball group is on your left. Other other faction attacks and the blue ball group just stand there, they do nothing, they are not attacked... both of you are outside the Keep.
3) Same ball groups, other ball groups too, don't provide rezzes or they rez some but not others. But mostly no rezzes.
4) Ball groups say, "let us know if you need help" sounds good right? Ok, I grab scroll, not on one faction but two factions, neither ball group helped. They ignored my asking. Not only that but a blue ball group sat at Ash gate, allowed other other faction to kill me, again, they were standing right there, and I was almost thru the gate. No heals, nothing, they literally just stood and watched. This is blue guys now. They let the other other guys take the scroll and then they left fighting them.
5) Instances where I grab scroll or ham and groups/guilds just sit there and refuse to help, then say the thing wasn't mine to take. Do they own everything now? So, they just sit there and watch us die ... but then sometimes ask zone to help escort them.

Let's talk about PvP Guilds for a moment. Blackreach AD Guild Officer says: AD Faction no longer needs solos. Ok. Yeah, he actually said this. Well fast forward about a year or two and Blackreach AD... where is it at? How are they doing over there. Its dead. Why did they treat us this way? Why run off the solos, because everyone wanted a ball group. If scroll needed to be picked up, we wait for the PvP Guild or ball group to come online n 5 or 6 hours. I could go further but I won't. Now you didn't like my comment about revenge, which really was Shakespeare talking more than me. And I understand that you weren't there so no there's no way to understand what I had seen. But the problem is this, how do you rise above something when you're not at fault. I did everything right. Even played by their rules, for a season. And there's more, there's more to this story, more corruption more hatefulness that's been done at me with no explanation provided. Just a high school mentality and a do as I say and not as I do attitude.

How do you rise above something when you're already not only doing more than you should, but you're also doing what others won't do and being consistently treated badly for it, including being asked to leave the server because the clique can't handle someone having a different opinion than them over there. I guess someone reading this might say I'm full of revenge or this and that, but umm I'm the one whose been wronged. I'm the one who for so many years led the way forward, perhaps not in every way, but in several notable ways, winning campaigns and making good decisions. But it seems none of it mattered and instead of getting a nod, or a simple handshake, a umm coupon on my next order of curly fries, these guys would rather dig a trench to hell and back than say one nice to thing to me. They'd rather sit there like some kind of Victorian era dolls rather than face the truth on any of their actions.

And everyone else always stays silent thru all of this. Yeah, that's not my glass to sweep up anymore.

heimdall14_9

@xDeusEJRx

I just can't ever see any "pvp balance" team of players come together when players cannot even have a general consensus over anything balance related. Heck, a lot of the times players don't even want to admit that a problem exists in the first place. Forget agreeing on a balance change, if we won't even admit to there being a problem.


this 100%

aetherix8

Vulkunne wrote: »

Was thinking about this post and all after... actually reading about something else. Now from before you had said you might have reacted differently and then later described having a mindset about going high and all. Let me ask a question. Let's talk about ball groups for a moment. When you're in Cyrodiil and you're just playing the game ok. You're just helping the faction, minding your own business relatively speaking and then, this ball group who you don't know, does the following over at least two days:

1) Stands there while you fight another faction. And does this like at least twice. Like a couple of you are fighting and they just stand there, not healing throwing out heals. Just standing there, they fight but stop fighting when you or others are around.
2) Entire uh 'other other faction' is sitting on Ash, ready to siege. You arrive as their only defense. Ball group is on your left. Other other faction attacks and the blue ball group just stand there, they do nothing, they are not attacked... both of you are outside the Keep.
3) Same ball groups, other ball groups too, don't provide rezzes or they rez some but not others. But mostly no rezzes.
4) Ball groups say, "let us know if you need help" sounds good right? Ok, I grab scroll, not on one faction but two factions, neither ball group helped. They ignored my asking. Not only that but a blue ball group sat at Ash gate, allowed other other faction to kill me, again, they were standing right there, and I was almost thru the gate. No heals, nothing, they literally just stood and watched. This is blue guys now. They let the other other guys take the scroll and then they left fighting them.
5) Instances where I grab scroll or ham and groups/guilds just sit there and refuse to help, then say the thing wasn't mine to take. Do they own everything now? So, they just sit there and watch us die ... but then sometimes ask zone to help escort them.

We obviously refer to different experiences when talking about ballgroups. I have both good and bad memories, and I can tell that some (groups of) players indeed suffer from delusions of superiority and think they can decide a campaign's results and what not. I can also confirm that ballgrps mostly don't rez anyone outside of their own group, and they might sometimes just stare at fights without participating, for whatever reason. But so do smallscales and individual players. And yes, ballgrps don't usually escort scrolls, but they will protect it if they carry it themselves, which can also work if your sole objective is to return the scroll (get a pug to take a keep where our scroll is > order "don't touch the scroll" > wait up to 5 min > ballgrp ports in and grabs the scroll > obv they don't run to the temple but to the last emp keep > they drop the scroll after dethrone for a rnd player to do the legwork to the temple > scroll's back).

Vulkunne wrote: »

Let's talk about PvP Guilds for a moment. Blackreach AD Guild Officer says: AD Faction no longer needs solos. Ok. Yeah, he actually said this. Well fast forward about a year or two and Blackreach AD... where is it at? How are they doing over there. Its dead. Why did they treat us this way? Why run off the solos, because everyone wanted a ball group. If scroll needed to be picked up, we wait for the PvP Guild or ball group to come online n 5 or 6 hours. I could go further but I won't. Now you didn't like my comment about revenge, which really was Shakespeare talking more than me. And I understand that you weren't there so no there's no way to understand what I had seen. But the problem is this, how do you rise above something when you're not at fault. I did everything right. Even played by their rules, for a season. And there's more, there's more to this story, more corruption more hatefulness that's been done at me with no explanation provided. Just a high school mentality and a do as I say and not as I do attitude.

How do you rise above something when you're already not only doing more than you should, but you're also doing what others won't do and being consistently treated badly for it, including being asked to leave the server because the clique can't handle someone having a different opinion than them over there. I guess someone reading this might say I'm full of revenge or this and that, but umm I'm the one whose been wronged. I'm the one who for so many years led the way forward, perhaps not in every way, but in several notable ways, winning campaigns and making good decisions. But it seems none of it mattered and instead of getting a nod, or a simple handshake, a umm coupon on my next order of curly fries, these guys would rather dig a trench to hell and back than say one nice to thing to me. They'd rather sit there like some kind of Victorian era dolls rather than face the truth on any of their actions.

And everyone else always stays silent thru all of this. Yeah, that's not my glass to sweep up anymore.

From my point of view, there is one fundamental issue at play here: taking the game too seriously. In a context where there are many differing visions about how the game is supposed to be played (each player having their own expectations), and if it is all being taken too seriously, it is easy to end up with disappointment, frustration, and conflict.
But we're talking about a videogame here; afaik it is meant to be a fun activity.

How does one rise above such a context? By remembering it's just a game ("it's just a ride"). Literally none of it matters: score, scrolls, emp. These are but mere pretexts for getting into fights - which is the only thing of importance in a PvP mode. If some players suffer from a lack of perspective (treating a game like a job) or delusions of superiority, or both, then the best course of action is to ignore them and focus on activities that are fun. If other people's playstyle doesn't fit your expectations, then just keep in mind that you're playing the game differently and won't be helping one another, which is fine.

katorga

The original poster is in a coordinated group with comms....hmmm all the advantages of a ballgroup imo.

What the OP really means is ball groups built around all wardens with charm: warden base, templar, sorcerer subclass with mechanical acuity/balorgh/wretched vitality/monomyth.

Vengeance is just simple PVDoor - no ball groups, sure. No OP setups sure, but super boring.

Vulkunne

aetherix8 wrote: »

...

Ok yeah sure it's just a game, that's fine and all. But if it's just a game, why do people get so mad about certain nerfs? Why do they get upset when not receiving their trade for something? Like people paying for mats or a service of some kind; for their time spent helping someone else etc. There's lots of things that people get mad about, even though it is as you said, it's just a game. Same could be said for ballgroups, it's just a group, you don't need all these exploitive things. Just make a group and go, but they don't see it that way.

But alas, none of it is that simple. Why is that. Because we put our time into this thing. And time spent, no matter the reason, has its own value. People who abuse my time or my money, are in essence, abusing me. Even if that is not the intention.