How To Balance Sub-Classing

Gabriel_H

Ok, first off a few things:

1) While ZOS call it sub-classing, it's really multi-classing - I shall be referring to it as multi-classing for this thread
2) DLC classes have distinct skill lines (Tank, Heal, DPS) but base classes do not - this makes the multi-classing system inherantly unbalanced
3) The current end-game meta is so much more powerful than the next best it destroys build diversity at end-game
4) Multi-classes are more powerful than Pure-Classes

The problem with balancing that is that to do so currently would require nerfing classes to make class combinations less powerful, but then the pure-class would also be less powerful and still not stack up against a multi-classes. So,

Q: How to balance an inherantly unbalanced system and restore build diversity at end game?
A: By introducing actual sub-classing - being further specialization into a desired role.

A role specialization system could be used to provide buffs to pure-classes bringing them into line with multi-classes, as well as giving the necessary power and tools to compete at end game without destroying class identity, and increasing build diversity at end game. Base classes could be given extra perks to offset the differences caused by not having seperate skill lines. Something similar to how the CP system operates with passive and active buffs that need slotting.

It would give the player more choice on how to build - between multi-classing or sub-classing - with either choice being competitive. The more you multi-class the less you can specialize.

It would be entirely up to the player on which route they take.

Estin

I personally don't believe the solution to balancing it is to bring pure classes up to par with subclassed/multiclassed builds. The system brought in so much power creep, seeing anywhere from 40-60% increase in damage, survivability, etc. Bringing pure classes up to par with a subclassed build only allows for that power creep to remain in the game, something that I find completely unnecessary to keep. Power creep was already very high before the system dropped, there's no reason to keep this astronomically high level of one. It will only introduce further issues. Old content will (continue to) become irrelevant as it will be a breeze to make it through anything pre 2025, and future content will need to be balanced at the level of this new power creep which will both bring us back to what things were pre 2025 and also make things too hard the average player.

The simplest, albeit probably not simple in terms of designing it, solution is to balance skills while subclassed. This can be done in a numerous amount of ways, such as a flat 50% (random number, don't argue) for subclassed active and passive skills, diluting your own power the more base class skill lines you remove (reduced damage, resistance, recovery, passive bonuses on actives and passives, etc), unsynergistic combos providing penalties, etc.

The goal of subclassing should be the following. Provide a limitless amount of build options while not leaving pure classes or sub optimal subclassed combinations in the dust. Will there still be a meta setup? Yes, there's always going to be one no matter if subclassing existed or not. It shouldn't be more than 5%~ ahead of anything else in the hands of the best player, though.

As it stands, this will require a ton of work and only shows how unfinished this system truly is. It should have never been released in this state since because there are going to be players who are going to complain about the loss of their 40-60% power crept damage. Zos put themselves in a very rough spot only because they didn't want to delay this system. A ton of people left the game because of this system, and many are still leaving as the get fed up with the current state of balance. But people are also going to leave because you will take away their massive power creep if you balance subclassing with no guarantee that the people who already left will come back. But more people are still going to leave if you continue to balance individual skills in order to dial back subclassed combinations, making pure classes even weaker for no reason. The only winning move for this situation was to not play in the first place. Unfortunately they did play, and are now stuck between only negative choices.

SneaK

Any idea is welcome…

But, ESO has a really wide variety (or at least used to) of play styles that don’t exactly fit into the trinity. And there are a lot of utility buffs that could factor into these different play styles. From a PvP perspective this idea is a lot harder to implement, not saying it’s a bad idea.

For instance though, Storm Calling is a staple on 2 of 3 main builds in PvP, no one selects it for damage, healing, or tankiness. It’s selected cause it offers all three, plus mobility.

Your idea could help limit the gap, but they’d have to offer some really significant “boons” or whatever we’re gonna call it, and it really can’t just be a flat number or percent. Cause frankly that’s boring.










Oh yea and hybridization is bad

Radiate77

One idea I would like to see, would be an expansion of named Classes from 7 to our new current number. Then mythics or unique passives could be designed to incentivize each Class in different ways, instead of only doing this for the base 7.

This could be done intelligently.

For example ArcFlameBlade could receive a future passive that benefits its surviveability at the cost of it’s damage as an over-arching class passive.

Now I would love to go further into this, as I’ve got some interesting ideas of my own, but I’ll let you cook for a week or two before making my thread.

Evil_Rurouni

TBH, you could make a lot of progress towards balancing subclassing by just limiting Arcanist beam to the 0 crux and 1 crux versions.
Eliminate the 2 crux and 3 crux versions.

That'd make beam spam less powerful AND make the setup of arcanist builds less dominated by the need to generate crux to fuel beam casts.
That could result in less arcanist DPS builds in trial groups total, and more build variety in those you do see.

Assassination passives getting a mild nerf wouldn't hurt with increasing buid diversity either.


After that its case of buffing underused skills, morphs, and passives to bring them up to the level of the post nerf assassination skill line.
THAT will take a lot more time and effort.

Almost everything about sorc needs a complete rework to suit the multiclassing game we're stuck with.
Don't expect to see a job that big get done in a hurry.


As for balancing pure builds, one option would be adding a passive skill line that boosts the character based on how many native skill lines are equiped.

Downside?
Good luck making the pure character boost powerful enouth to mater in PvE without making it overpowered in PvP.

Gabriel_H

Estin wrote: »

The simplest, albeit probably not simple in terms of designing it, solution is to balance skills while subclassed. This can be done in a numerous amount of ways, such as a flat 50% (random number, don't argue) for subclassed active and passive skills, diluting your own power the more base class skill lines you remove (reduced damage, resistance, recovery, passive bonuses on actives and passives, etc), unsynergistic combos providing penalties, etc.

That still doesn't solve the inherant balance problem between base classes and DLC classes. To solve that would require a complete seperating of the skills into distinct lines or the introduction of a system such as suggested. The tweaks can then occur in that system without affecting the wider class.

Gabriel_H

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

TBH, you could make a lot of progress towards balancing subclassing by just limiting Arcanist beam to the 0 crux and 1 crux versions.
Eliminate the 2 crux and 3 crux versions.

That'd make beam spam less powerful AND make the setup of arcanist builds less dominated by the need to generate crux to fuel beam casts.
That could result in less arcanist DPS builds in trial groups total, and more build variety in those you do see.

Assassination passives getting a mild nerf wouldn't hurt with increasing buid diversity either.


After that its case of buffing underused skills, morphs, and passives to bring them up to the level of the post nerf assassination skill line.
THAT will take a lot more time and effort.

Almost everything about sorc needs a complete rework to suit the multiclassing game we're stuck with.
Don't expect to see a job that big get done in a hurry.


As for balancing pure builds, one option would be adding a passive skill line that boosts the character based on how many native skill lines are equiped.

Downside?
Good luck making the pure character boost powerful enouth to mater in PvE without making it overpowered in PvP.

Any nerf to any class will then make that pure class weaker.

As for PvP that's an entirely easy fix and one that already exists in game - different amounts or boosts against monsters and players.

Example:

SneaK

Give pure classes one extra armor slot.

Gabriel_H

SneaK wrote: »

Give pure classes one extra armor slot.

Are you trying to sneak in capes?

Estin

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

The simplest, albeit probably not simple in terms of designing it, solution is to balance skills while subclassed. This can be done in a numerous amount of ways, such as a flat 50% (random number, don't argue) for subclassed active and passive skills, diluting your own power the more base class skill lines you remove (reduced damage, resistance, recovery, passive bonuses on actives and passives, etc), unsynergistic combos providing penalties, etc.

That still doesn't solve the inherant balance problem between base classes and DLC classes. To solve that would require a complete seperating of the skills into distinct lines or the introduction of a system such as suggested. The tweaks can then occur in that system without affecting the wider class.

No, but that's another problem to solve after subclassing has been properly implemented.

Honestly, the only class that had the largest gap is Warden because nobody knew what Warden should be. Even after Necro's blunder last year (or was it earlier this year? Time is a blur), it still found a spot to fit into with the IA set. The base classes still did absolutely fine too. DK and Templar were honestly the top of the line base classes with sorc and nightblade being good but lacking significant cleave damage. Not every class needs to be accessible as Arcanist either, as in an easy 3 button gameplay with a channeled skill that obliterates everything in a 20x20 area, if that's what you mean. Some classes should honestly be harder to play because there are people who prefer a more active play style. For me, melee magblade, and necro before blastbones died, were fun to play because it was more engaging, and could still easily compete with the meta at the time.

Rittings

I think suggestions will lead to nerfs of sub-classing, rather than boosts to pure class...

In truth, I do miss the class system of old, but I also love the creativity of sub-classing. I think it is safe to say at this point that pure class builds just simply aren't as strong as sub-classed ones - and the way to balance that, is to give bonuses to class choices and identities.

Each class should have 3 unique abilities (preferably passive). When you choose a class, you get all 3 of those passives granted to you... You lose one passive each time you subclass one of your skill lines.

I would further suggest we have 3 options to select from for each passive "level" you're at. Otherwise we'll go back down the hole of certain classes making better healers/tanks/dps... Also, you could add in a line of RPG bonuses for players who enjoy questing and roleplaying... So, for example, this could be the passive choices of a Nightblade:-

LEVEL 1 (base choice of class)

Options :- 1. Increased critical healing done... 2. Gain Shadowy Resistance (crit resist increase)... 3 Strike from the Shadows (extra damage upon critical strike, cooldown of 15 seconds)

LEVEL 2 (base choice + one other Nightblade skill line)

Options :- 1 - Rogue's Purse (increased gold stolen... 2. Safety in the Shadows (percentage chance to be cloaked when a guard or NPC spots you doing something criminal)... 3. Sneak cost reduction

LEVEL 3... you get the idea at this point, and maybe level 3 could offer the best bonus options for choosing to remain as a pure class.