Another Alteration Staff Proposal

M1SHAAN

I saw an answer in the Reddit AUA that explained a little about why adding a new weapon would be a massive undertaking, and it reminded me of my favorite suggestion I have seen for a new weapon: an Alteration Staff. I'm sure that it would have many of the implementation difficulties that any new weapon would, but I see a few distinct advantages:

1. It could use the staff motifs that already exist, cutting out hundreds of models and textures that would need to be created for other new weapons (other than hand-to-hand, hah)
2. In a similar vein, it could reuse some of the existing staff animations to reduce the workload there too
3. It can function as the 'tank' staff option and thus pull defensive buffs away from the ice staff, allowing them to be replaced with offensive buffs so ice-themed damage dealers are more viable.

So, for fun, here's my take on what Alteration Staff skills could look like. And of course, any devs reading this are free to steal my ideas

Alteration Staff
Mass Telekinesis (Ultimate): (duration Y seconds, range 28m) Mark a locus point on the ground. After 2 seconds, all enemies within X meters of that point are pulled to the locus and are immobilized for the duration of the spell. This pull is repeated every 2 seconds, so new enemies that enter the area will also be pulled.

• Enduring Telekinesis: Increases the duration.
• Ravaging Telekinesis: Monsters snared by this spell take Z% more damage for the duration.

Stoneflesh: You gain Major and Minor Resolve for 20 seconds. Allies within X meters gain Minor Resolve (note: trying to avoid overlap with expansive frost cloak).

• Oakflesh: You gain X magicka and stamina every time you take damage for the duration, up to once a second.
• Ironflesh: You also gain an unnamed +X bonus to physical and spell resistance for the duration.

Force Shield: Grants a damage shield that absorbs X damage over 8 seconds (note: did 8 instead of 6 to make it a bit better than non-alteration shield options).

• Magical Shield: Also take Y% less damage from magical attacks for the duration.
• Physical Shield: Also take Y% less damage from physical attacks for the duration.

Reflect Damage: For 6 seconds, each instance of direct, single-target damage you take reflects X% of the damage back to the caster, up to a maximum of Y.

• Goading Reflection: Enemies that take reflected damage are taunted by you for 15 seconds. This effect can occur once every 1 second.
• Piercing Reflection: Enemies that take reflected damage are also afflicted with Minor Breach and Minor Vulnerability for 15 seconds (note: or other useful debuff/s).

Rend Armor: (single-target, range 28m) Taunt and apply Major Breach to the target for 15 seconds (note: make more expensive than Puncture so it isn’t strictly better).

• Disintegrate Armor: Also apply Minor Breach.
• Leaden Armor: Also attempt to stun the target for 3 seconds, and decrease their movement speed by X% for 15 seconds (concurrent with the stun).

Absorb attributes: (single-target, range 28m) Siphon strength from an enemy, gaining Minor Toughness, Strength, and Arcana for X seconds, increasing your max health, stamina and magicka by 10% respectively.

• Mass absorb attributes: Your grouped allies gain Minor Toughness, Strength or Arcana for the duration, based on which of their Health, Stamina or Magicka is higher.
• Absorb vitae: The target is also afflicted with Minor Cowardice and Enervation for the duration, while you gain Minor Courage and Minor Force.

--- Passives ---
Magical Efficiency: Decrease the Magicka cost of skills by X%/Y%.
Elemental Resistance: Decrease the amount of Flame, Frost, and Shock damage taken by X%/Y%.
Slowfall: Decrease the amount of fall damage taken by X%/Y% (Note: not so useful for group PvE but good for PvP and overland exploration).
Unburdened: Equipping an Alteration Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 18/36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 10/20%.
Spell Absorption: Alteration Staff Heavy Attacks restore X% more magicka, and restore Y% of the magicka gained as health.


I also thought about how to change the ice staff in response. My idea was to drop the tankiness while keeping a cc/debuff focus to keep it distinct from the other elements:

Destruction Staff (Ice) (cc / debuff focus)
Elemental Rage: fine as is
Wall of Frost: drop the damage shield and reduce the cost
Frost Clench: drop the taunt and increased range, increase the damage to match the other elements
Frost Impulse: drop the Minor Protection, instead apply Major Brittle for 4 seconds (note: short duration like Major Expedition / Major Berserk because powerful, this might still be too powerful for gank builds though?)
--- Passives ---
Tri Focus: Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks drain the target’s Stamina by X every second for Y seconds, restoring the same amount to you.
Ancient Knowledge: Equipping an ice staff increases damage done against enemies inflicted with a debuff by X% per debuff, up to a maximum of Y%.

Thanks for reading, I hope it was interesting/entertaining, and feel free to tell me exactly why my ideas are terrible in the comments

Gabriel_H

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I also thought about how to change the ice staff in response. My idea was to drop the tankiness while keeping a cc/debuff focus to keep it distinct from the other elements:

It's used for tanking, hence the tankiness. Your changes would fundamentally alter tank resource management. The Alteration skills you have proposed would not make up the difference:

Tri-Focus: While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina

Your Alteration skills lack a ground AoE DoT to proc enchants (namely Crusher in PvE). Something like Rend Armor would negate the need for melee tanking, and you could just kite the boss in a small circle avoiding pretty much most damage, while maintaining 9k pene, and the DDs still able to focus it down. Combined with a teleport skill from some classes would make it game breaking in PvE.

In terms of PvP, it would be totally unbalanced. You'd have a high res player with a damage reflect, sustain godhood and debuff monster.

M1SHAAN

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It's used for tanking, hence the tankiness. Your changes would fundamentally alter tank resource management. The Alteration skills you have proposed would not make up the difference:

Tri-Focus: While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina

Your Alteration skills lack a ground AoE DoT to proc enchants (namely Crusher in PvE). Something like Rend Armor would negate the need for melee tanking, and you could just kite the boss in a small circle avoiding pretty much most damage, while maintaining 9k pene, and the DDs still able to focus it down. Combined with a teleport skill from some classes would make it game breaking in PvE.

In terms of PvP, it would be totally unbalanced. You'd have a high res player with a damage reflect, sustain godhood and debuff monster.

Thanks for the feedback! Here are some of my rationales:

• I've heard that tanks usually go out of their way to not take tri focus because blocking with magicka is usually a detriment, so I didn't see the need to move it over to the alteration staff. I'm sure some tanks use it though!
• Good point on the lack of an AoE DoT, I was thinking of the ultimate as filling that niche but since it's an ultimate it wouldn't be useful for reliably proccing enchantments. For a quick fix you could make it a normal skill by swapping it with reflect damage, only do one initial pull instead of multiple, but leave a DoT on the ground for the duration.
• You can make a soft taunt (pull) with Major Breach via Scribing (Leashing Soul), so I figured Breach on a hard ranged taunt wouldn't bork the meta too much. Swapping the minor breach on Disintegrate for a small DoT or something would probably be warranted though.
• I don't understand the potential interaction with teleports you mentioned, could you explain?
• For PvP, my thought was to tune the damage reflect cap so that post-battle spirit it wouldn't completely wreck other players, just exert some pressure. That plus having a high cost (like purge) so it needs to be used strategically, not spammed, even with good sustain. Dropping the duration while maintaining high cost would also help with that, or moving it to the ultimate as I mentioned before. Also, I didn't put in a lot of numbers in general because those are so crucial to whether skills are OP or useless; even a damage reflect could be useless if it was capped at like 10 damage, for example.
• Re: sustain and debuffs in pvp, I'm not convinced this weapon would be that OP if the numbers are tuned correctly. The Animal companions line already has Major/Minor breach and minor vuln all available, for example. You could drop Courage/Cowardice or Force/Ennervation off Absorb Vitae if those would be too much.

Thanks again for the feedback, it's fun to discuss these ideas even though they will likely never come to pass.

LunaFlora

this would be awesome!
i would much prefer Tanking with an Alteration staff than ice staff.

i wanna use an ice staff for Damage Dealing builds instead, but currently it's just awful for that.

emilyhyoyeon

100% on board with an alteration staff

An easy way to deal with the need to proc a weapon enchant would be to make one skill a ground AOE ''Burden'' spell, as in, ''decrease enemies' strength and slow them for X% and damage them for (small amount of damage) for Y seconds.''

I would put this in place of Absorb Attribute, since Absorb Attribute is typically a Restoration kind of spell.

Gabriel_H

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I've heard that tanks usually go out of their way to not take tri focus because blocking with magicka is usually a detriment, so I didn't see the need to move it over to the alteration staff. I'm sure some tanks use it though!

Dogma. These would be the same tanks constantly complaining about sustain and needing synergies. It is in no way a detriment, it's a philosophical choice that has made it's way into the meta.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Good point on the lack of an AoE DoT, I was thinking of the ultimate as filling that niche but since it's an ultimate it wouldn't be useful for reliably proccing enchantments. For a quick fix you could make it a normal skill by swapping it with reflect damage, only do one initial pull instead of multiple, but leave a DoT on the ground for the duration.

AoE DoT on Weapon Skills is why people take the lines.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

You can make a soft taunt (pull) with Major Breach via Scribing (Leashing Soul), so I figured Breach on a hard ranged taunt wouldn't bork the meta too much. Swapping the minor breach on Disintegrate for a small DoT or something would probably be warranted though.

The scribed skill is limited to 22m. You can have Major Breach just by using Ele Sus. The difference is you'd have Major AND Minor on the same skill. This is currently only on Pierce Armour, and the cost of that is having to be in melee range. Having both on a long range taunt would make a lot of fights meaningless.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I don't understand the potential interaction with teleports you mentioned, could you explain?

A tank could simply ping-pong from one side of the battlezone to the other, staying out of melee range the whole time, while maintaining a taunt and the full 9k pene. Not even having to worry about the enrage mechs on a dodged/avoided boss heay attack.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

For PvP, my thought was to tune the damage reflect cap so that post-battle spirit it wouldn't completely wreck other players, just exert some pressure. That plus having a high cost (like purge) so it needs to be used strategically, not spammed, even with good sustain. Dropping the duration while maintaining high cost would also help with that, or moving it to the ultimate as I mentioned before. Also, I didn't put in a lot of numbers in general because those are so crucial to whether skills are OP or useless; even a damage reflect could be useless if it was capped at like 10 damage, for example.

You'd need to factor in sustain from group members.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Re: sustain and debuffs in pvp, I'm not convinced this weapon would be that OP if the numbers are tuned correctly. The Animal companions line already has Major/Minor breach and minor vuln all available, for example. You could drop Courage/Cowardice or Force/Ennervation off Absorb Vitae if those would be too much.

The difference is the range.

Froil

I still say Illusion staff for tanking and Alteration for overall utility. I think I have a write-up of my own Illusion staff idea somewhere.

M1SHAAN

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Dogma. These would be the same tanks constantly complaining about sustain and needing synergies. It is in no way a detriment, it's a philosophical choice that has made it's way into the meta.

Uhhh pretty sure Hyperioxes advises against it, and while he is not the sole arbiter of How To Tank(tm), I've never seen him complain about sustain. For many players and builds blocking with magicka makes sustain worse. I am personally ambivalent to moving the passive to a proposed alteration staff :shrug: let the tank mains decide

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AoE DoT on Weapon Skills is why people take the lines.

I personally take the weapon lines so that I'm not just using my fists

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The scribed skill is limited to 22m. You can have Major Breach just by using Ele Sus. The difference is you'd have Major AND Minor on the same skill. This is currently only on Pierce Armour, and the cost of that is having to be in melee range. Having both on a long range taunt would make a lot of fights meaningless.

Shalks is mid-range and has major and minor too, though I don't think many PvE tanks use Animal Companions nowadays. In any case my proposed change (minor breach -> small DoT) would fix that.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

A tank could simply ping-pong from one side of the battlezone to the other, staying out of melee range the whole time, while maintaining a taunt and the full 9k pene. Not even having to worry about the enrage mechs on a dodged/avoided boss heay attack.

I'd love to see someone do that tbh. I imagine on some bosses it would be difficult to do that without obliterating your group with cleave. Not saying it'd be good for the meta, but I'd want to see what it'd look like.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

You'd need to factor in sustain from group members.

... if I was plugging in numbers, which for the most part I'm not. Someone else can do the math if they so desire.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

The difference is the range.

If Reflect Damage was moved to the ultimate slot as I proposed, you wouldn't get great uptimes, bringing down the power.

M1SHAAN

Froil wrote: »

I still say Illusion staff for tanking and Alteration for overall utility. I think I have a write-up of my own Illusion staff idea somewhere.

That sounds cool, I'd love to see that!

Gabriel_H

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Uhhh pretty sure Hyperioxes advises against it, and while he is not the sole arbiter of How To Tank(tm), I've never seen him complain about sustain. For many players and builds blocking with magicka makes sustain worse. I am personally ambivalent to moving the passive to a proposed alteration staff :shrug: let the tank mains decide

Again, dogma. Hyperioxes says it as a MUST for all tanks, without considering individual builds. I run less than 600 mag/stam recovery in end-game HM trials. This allows me to stack other stats that improve mitigation or help the group. I can do that in part because of tri-focus. (Note: Most meta builds have recovery on mag/stam well above 1500). Oh and not for nothing, but it also means I can choose any Mundus I like. I typically run Steed because for the increased mobility.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I'd love to see someone do that tbh. I imagine on some bosses it would be difficult to do that without obliterating your group with cleave. Not saying it'd be good for the meta, but I'd want to see what it'd look like.

It would make the cleave irrelevent, along with every melee mechanic that ZOS have put in to address power creep on tanks. A player could teleport and turn the cleave, without having to consider how much time is left on taunt, maj/min breach.

Renato90085

but why tank need a new weapon?

Vaqual

How would LA/HA work? Would it have any? If not, how do you see this? Something like empowering the next ability by X %?

GloatingSwine

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It's used for tanking, hence the tankiness. Your changes would fundamentally alter tank resource management. The Alteration skills you have proposed would not make up the difference:

Tri-Focus: While an Ice Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina

TBH I'd love them to delete that so that tanks could actually get the HA damage shield from ice staffs. Changing blocking to magicka is just too inconvenient though so we never take Tri-Focus.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

A tank could simply ping-pong from one side of the battlezone to the other, staying out of melee range the whole time, while maintaining a taunt and the full 9k pene. Not even having to worry about the enrage mechs on a dodged/avoided boss heay attack.

Also removing the boss from everyone's floor AoEs and reducing their uptime on Exploiter. There might be one or two situations where that might be useful, but most of the time in most fights the tank's primary job is to make the boss stand still so everyone can use all their effects on it reliably.

Renato90085

i know Tri-Focus unwelcome in must good tank, but as a few tank who use this passive for shield,i feel in pug and bad group this passive still good,can swap bar block and recovery stam or magic in long combat is pretty good

Gabriel_H

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Also removing the boss from everyone's floor AoEs and reducing their uptime on Exploiter. There might be one or two situations where that might be useful, but most of the time in most fights the tank's primary job is to make the boss stand still so everyone can use all their effects on it reliably.

Not with a good tank. Boss wouldn't move. Just simply switch direction it is facing. A skilled tank could ping-pong so the boss switches by a 45 degree angle, avoiding the melee penalty and most damage. There are a myriad of boss fights and trials that would allow a group to only run one healer in such a scenario. It would be game breaking.

ArchMikem

Whatever buffs Cryomancer builds im all for.

PeacefulAnarchy

Gabriel_H wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Also removing the boss from everyone's floor AoEs and reducing their uptime on Exploiter. There might be one or two situations where that might be useful, but most of the time in most fights the tank's primary job is to make the boss stand still so everyone can use all their effects on it reliably.

Not with a good tank. Boss wouldn't move. Just simply switch direction it is facing. A skilled tank could ping-pong so the boss switches by a 45 degree angle, avoiding the melee penalty and most damage. There are a myriad of boss fights and trials that would allow a group to only run one healer in such a scenario. It would be game breaking.

Why don't people do this now then? Have your healer slot shalks and be responsible for breach and have the tank just use inner fire or frost clench and do whatever it is that you're proposing?

SilverIce58

I would also like to see an Alteration staff, but I can understand it being a bit of an...interesting weapon to make real. Not every Alteration spell lends itself to being a skill used in battle (Feather, Water-Breathing, Water-Walking, Jump), but I can see some of them being skills like Shield turns into an ult that makes you ignore all sources of physical types of damage (bleed, poison, disease) for x second or all sources of magical damage (fire, frost, magic, shock) for x seconds, or the skin spells being resistance boosts/major or minor protection, or the Paralysis spells for a stun, tho that one would have to do something unique as Petrify already does that. Maybe it could be a skill that uses Stamina and does poison damage while paralyzing the enemy for x seconds.

What I think would be a very good idea to differentiate it and make it a very unique weapon would be to give Alteration staff a mass taunt and pull. I know, I know, mass taunt its been thought of so many times before, but I feel like if you really want to make the weapon stand out and be cool in these modern times of Arc Beam, it needs something just as unique. Especially since it would just use the same models as already existing staves.

My idea for a "Mass Taunt" would be something like how Frozen Gate pulls enemies, but you use Alteration's Telekinesis to do it, and it taunts them when pulled. I'd say only 3 enemies at a time would be ideal, tho I can see them putting it as 2. I could see it like "Force an enemy towards you with Alteration magic. Also pulls 2 (or 1) other enemies nearby the target, and taunts upon completion of the pull. Deals x Magic damage." or maybe something like that.