Siege Damage

Lavum

As i drag myself into Cyro to suffer another 36k Geode grind I noticed.
Why hasn't Siege damage increased with the game? It use to be you avoided Siege damage at all costs, it would either kill you outright or put you near-death. Now, people don't care. get hit 1-2x. no big deal.
How about a adjustment on damage against players.

WaywardArgonian

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Lavum

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

After this last week, I would disagree. It has not grown with the game, and IMO needs to be adjusted.

Oblivion_Protocol

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Yes, siege damage is powerful enough to kill or put near-death the vast majority of players who just stand there doing nothing about it. But that’s about where it ends. Players resistances have increased. Average HP on PvP builds has jumped to 35k. Healing is in the stratosphere.

I remember when getting hit with Coldfire was a legitimate death sentence. Now I can outheal it with Vigor. No shields. No ball group heals. Not even a burst heal.

Just Vigor.

And if you’re in a ball group? Flaming Oils might as well be a refreshing spring rain. I’ve literally had two oils pour on me during a siege, and my health bar didn’t move.

On top of that, builds have gotten twice as fast as they were two years ago. Now, when you see that circle pop up under your feet, you can just take two steps and be half a mile away from where it hits, then go right back to whatever you were doing.

I propose doubling the damage siege does against players. Individual people shouldn’t be able to survive getting hit by a sharpened iron pole that’s as big around as your forearm, traveling at highway speeds, and enchanted with an explosion that can burn your soul. Not without extreme measures or a HM Trial final boss fight worth of hps on them, anyway.

Reverb

I barely bother to step out of Coldfire these days. I don’t even bother to step out of other siege, including lancers and meatbags. Every night I see groups standing at a door under 8 oils and they shrug it off and keep sieging.

Zama666

Oils....ugh...they do a LOT of damage.

I would like to see some changes, like stuns or some sort of knock back

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Siege should be health % based dmg and they should bring back sets working with siege would help a lot with the tank problem and not punish regular players as much.

Proccing VD from an oil pour was always fun as was building specifically to boost the duration of the fire dot on coldharbour ballistas.

Rohamad_Ali

People don't use the strongest siege equipment most times. If you go up against a group of good defenders with specialty siege, it is a nightmare to get through.

Bogaisha

Make Siegemaster Set Good. We can already tab target players to see where they are through walls. Just make Siegemaster buff siege damage by X%

MincMincMinc

Seige is a good measure of the power creep we have seen in the game at least.

What used to be a death sentence for players is now just an annoyance while they pvdoor

YandereGirlfriend

Brother, what?!

Siege damage is so crazily overtuned that it is the dominant playstyle for like 75% of players in Cyrodiil. They just camp on walls and pew pew anything that comes within range, never daring to actually engage in a fight. That's not the type of "PvP" that should be rewarded and is the sort of thing that has killed many a campaign.

OP elides how the unique debuffs sourced from siege damage somehow managed to completely avoid being adjusted back during Major/Minor buffs reset. So we have Scattershots out there placing 30% damage taken debuffs on enemies and Meatbags and Oils reducing healing taken by like 90%. And, of course, Coldfires hit harder than ultimates and often fail to create AOE circles before they land, etc.

A buff to siege is literally one of the last things that PvP needs at this time.

kiwi_tea

If you combine stacked HoTs, Major and Minor Evasion, a semi-decent health pool, and Siege Shield, then most siege just tickles even now. When a group is smart enough to combo Scattershot + Shock Lancer (for Concussed), AoE hard CC, and fast-firing siege that can adjust quickly like Fire Ballista *on a chokepoint* siege is still potent, but movement is so fast, snares are so irrelevant, and the lag is so bad... ... ...good luck timing your CC just right to fix a ball group on the choke for any amount of time.

Siege isn't OP at all, but it doesn't need a buff either. Competent, coordinated siege use is vanishingly rare. And healing and speed and Snowtreaders are OP.

At any rate, if someone truly hates siege, they can go play BGs or IC.

xFocused

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Too bad it’s not powerful at all against ball groups, lol.

Joy_Division

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Yes, siege damage is powerful enough to kill or put near-death the vast majority of players who just stand there doing nothing about it. But that’s about where it ends. Players resistances have increased. Average HP on PvP builds has jumped to 35k. Healing is in the stratosphere.

I remember when getting hit with Coldfire was a legitimate death sentence. Now I can outheal it with Vigor. No shields. No ball group heals. Not even a burst heal.

Just Vigor.

And if you’re in a ball group? Flaming Oils might as well be a refreshing spring rain. I’ve literally had two oils pour on me during a siege, and my health bar didn’t move.

On top of that, builds have gotten twice as fast as they were two years ago. Now, when you see that circle pop up under your feet, you can just take two steps and be half a mile away from where it hits, then go right back to whatever you were doing.

I propose doubling the damage siege does against players. Individual people shouldn’t be able to survive getting hit by a sharpened iron pole that’s as big around as your forearm, traveling at highway speeds, and enchanted with an explosion that can burn your soul. Not without extreme measures or a HM Trial final boss fight worth of hps on them, anyway.

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

Oblivion_Protocol

Joy_Division wrote: »

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

I think you misunderstand my point. I didn’t say I want an instant, unavoidable death sentence. I want increased damage to give more players a chance against ball groups, damage shields, and overhealing. You can still get out of the way. But you should HAVE TO get out of the way. You should be punished for getting hit by the big, obvious AOE, not just stand there and tank it.

Have you ever noticed how many players beg for groups to join in zone chat? It’s because, as it stands, solo players don’t have meaningful ways to contribute to fights in Cyro PvP, unless they’re players with either meta builds, veteran-level skills, or both. As least with more powerful siege, newer players can do SOMETHING when a ball group comes around. They can at least hold off or chase away the ball group or zerg, rather than just melt, get frustrated, and log off.

Because as I said before, you shouldn’t just be able to stand under 2-3 Oils with no siege shield or cleanse, and not only survive, but shrug it off like nothing.

Joy_Division

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

These real world comparisons are silly. You shouldn't survive getting hit in the head with a axe or a fireball, but that's exactly how fantasy games are.

Asking for a "death sentence" just screams a low skill player wanting an "I win" button to defeat more experienced/better players.

I think you misunderstand my point. I didn’t say I want an instant, unavoidable death sentence. I want increased damage to give more players a chance against ball groups, damage shields, and overhealing. You can still get out of the way. But you should HAVE TO get out of the way. You should be punished for getting hit by the big, obvious AOE, not just stand there and tank it.

Have you ever noticed how many players beg for groups to join in zone chat? It’s because, as it stands, solo players don’t have meaningful ways to contribute to fights in Cyro PvP, unless they’re players with either meta builds, veteran-level skills, or both. As least with more powerful siege, newer players can do SOMETHING when a ball group comes around. They can at least hold off or chase away the ball group or zerg, rather than just melt, get frustrated, and log off.

Because as I said before, you shouldn’t just be able to stand under 2-3 Oils with no siege shield or cleanse, and not only survive, but shrug it off like nothing.

I understand your point. But you are exaggerating and could make that same argument with regular skills and especially ultimates.

I have played in a ball group for years and anyone who has will say the same thing: siege is already very dangerous and lethal and even ball groups cannot sustain themselves under prolonged siege fire and standing under oils for any length of time is a spectacularly terrible idea . You are looking for an instant death sentence because from your perspective what is happening now: ball groups get hit by siege, ball groups move away from siege because it is a lethal threat, is not acceptable. Do you know why it is that ball groups choose to run around on the third floor of a tri-keep? Because the way it is designed, it is pretty much impossible for the defenders to use siege weaponry against them. Do you know why ball groups in outposts go out of their way to the ledges above the postern to kill the one person dropping oils? Because that is by far the most threatening person to them on the map.

The siege advocates will never be satisfied until they have immediate gratification that a solo player can all by themselves with single cheap piece of purchasable inventory will actually kill the most organized and skill groups in Cyrodiil. They've never accepted anything less. Even now with siege so powerful that trying to defend an inner keep is all but impossible when the attackers cover the tiny area on the upper inner with meatbags and coldifres, they still claim it is underpowered when it fundamentally breaks the entire point of a castle, which is supposed to give the defenders an advantage,

I would be more sympathetic to this argument that solo players need powerful anti-ball group measures if they were consistent and made the argument that skills and abilities are also needed to bust groups. This is a huge problem with Vengeance because there is only a limited amount of siege that can be place down, so ultimately the "PvP" that happens isn;t PvP at all, but a few players who can actually do anything useful playing with their inventory (that has nothing to do with PvP) while the rest of us have to twiddle our thumbs.

There are few people in ESO that has used more oil than I have since launch and I know exactly what it can and cannot do. Nobody can stand under 2-3 oils with no siege shield and no cleanse. Some tricky people have figured out there are certain spots that pouring oil does not hit. That won;t be solved by buffing siege. that problem, like ball groups, is an issue that should be resolved directly, not by introducing more broken mechanics to the game.

kiwi_tea

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have played in a ball group for years and anyone who has will say the same thing: siege is already very dangerous and lethal and even ball groups cannot sustain themselves under prolonged siege fire and standing under oils for any length of time is a spectacularly terrible idea . You are looking for an instant death sentence because from your perspective what is happening now: ball groups get hit by siege, ball groups move away from siege because it is a lethal threat, is not acceptable. Do you know why it is that ball groups choose to run around on the third floor of a tri-keep? Because the way it is designed, it is pretty much impossible for the defenders to use siege weaponry against them. Do you know why ball groups in outposts go out of their way to the ledges above the postern to kill the one person dropping oils? Because that is by far the most threatening person to them on the map.

It's also why ball groups go out of their way to run 5c medium armor for the Elude skill's Major Evasion, and they often spam siege shield in open field.

But you are exaggerating if you think any but the most coordinated, organised, knowledgeable groups put up coordinated siege against a ball group. In my experience a competent siege defense against a ball takes an incredible level of coordination - far beyond what a large group of solo players who happen to be defending a keep are ever capable of. The fact is the average player is just helpless against a ball group. Their best option is just to leave the fight and do something else.

That's no fun. Ball groups are only fun for the people in them - they centralise any fight around them. They really are not good for Cyro's overall playability - and for someone playing on 200 ping they slow the map to a crawl to the point where, if the game starts crawling in GH on a weekend, I have an early warning system that a ball group is nearby (but my skills will barely cast and bar won't swap, so good luck against them!)

Siege having an effect that scales on the number of people it hits, that might not be terrible - or unique siege snares that affect people wearing Snowtreaders - players would need enough foresight to put them on chokepoints, and balls would have to respect chokepoint breaches into keeps more than they do at present.

WaywardArgonian

xFocused wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Siege damage is already ridiculously powerful.

Too bad it’s not powerful at all against ball groups, lol.

Yeah it is. A big enough siege defense at the right time can prevent almost any ballgroup from entering a keep. Nearly every wipe of a ballgroup that doesn't involve another ballgroup happens with the crucial aid of siege damage.

People just seem to expect to hit a ballgroup with one coldfire and get frustrated when it doesn't immediately wipe them.