Nerf Velothi not Arcanist

Urvoth

Velothi is the clear enabler for Arcanist beam builds and has been so strong that in many scenarios there's effectively no tradeoff whatsoever for running it. Removing the minor force and reducing the damage against monsters from 15% down to 10% would keep it relevant and viable for beam builds, while opening up more space for other mythics/monster sets and class lines.

Even other high dps setups like Dread builds usually run Velothi and it's been BIS for most content for several years now. It's about time for it to be toned back to allow more space for alternate playstyles and build options.

Jaimeh

I agree, it synergizes so well with the arcanist playstyle since it revolves around a channeled skill that eats up weaving time, it also gives the extra advantage of freeing up a lot from using barbed trap for minor force (presumably if not used for the DOT), while being a disadvantage on other classes who rely on LAs for things like grim focus/bound armament proc.

daemondamian

I play 14 different characters of all classes with one arcanist (soloing most content including group dungeons) and use velothi on many of my builds.

I would prefer a nerf to arcanist beam rather velothi even though I do use beam on my arcanist and subclass beam on several of my non-arcanist builds.

MashmalloMan

Urvoth wrote: »

Removing the minor force and reducing the damage against monsters from 15% down to 10% would keep it relevant and viable for beam builds.

It already wasn't BIS for non channeled setups as far as I can summize, this would destroy it for everyone AND Arcanist. Arcanist would just find another set to use, so it would be viable for no one.

The reason people even considered it outside of Arcanist was to sacrifice single target dps for aoe dps, they're not great or find weaving unfun to engage with, or they want to save a bar slot. How would nerfing it that harshly keep it relevant?

I think it's important to understand why people pick sets over others, a lot of the times its just ease of use, not necessarily because it performs better. Of all the mythics available, everything is too weak or has punishing mechanics to jump through which makes them noncompetitive in pve, but thats where the problem lies. Harpooners was the next best mythic, but it has low max stack uptime, and crit damage is easily capped out with subclassing, so it's become irrelevant.

Jaimeh wrote: »

I agree, it synergizes so well with the arcanist playstyle since it revolves around a channeled skill that eats up weaving time..

Isn't that the entire purpose of it, when did it become the objective to nerf items that are good at what they're meant to do? I wish we had more sets like that because then maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Fartcarver is too strong for its competitive single target dps that also gives insane cleave, and that would remain the case post velothi nerf.

Jaimeh wrote: »

... it also gives the extra advantage of freeing up a lot from using barbed trap for minor force (presumably if not used for the DOT)

As you implied, Barbed Trap and the rare source of Hemorhaging it provides is so good, that even when you have minor force, it's still worth using as a damage skill alone. It's usually the 1st generic flex dot you can add in when the subclassed lines you picked can't fill the 10 spaces. Pretty much the only high end setups that gain dps by dropping trap is Fartcarver, which speaks more to how strong that skill is, than how strong the set it.

Jaimeh wrote: »

..while being a disadvantage on other classes who rely on LAs for things like grim focus/bound armament proc.

This is just false. Velothi only negatively effects things that scale from light/heavy attacks like Empower or Overload. Skills like Grim Focus have a minigame/proc condition like many other burst skills in the game. That would be like saying you can't pair Relequen and Velothi together because you need to weave.

Velothi may help people who can't weave by eliminating the strong requirement for it, but it does not punish people who can weave well, even with it you want to weave to keep up your ultimate generation and enchants.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=abT0kVItrak

TLDR: 178k dps using Tentacular Dread without Velothi;
Selene = 6.1%/10.8k dps
Front Bar Light Attacks = 7.3%/12.9k dps

Velothi would eliminate these 2 sources, but buff everything else they have. In my personal testing as someone who can't perfectly weave like the youtuber, I typically gain about 4-5% dps by using Selene/Weaving over Velothi, so I'm guessing this player would probably be closer to 6-8%. That would put their 178k parse at about 165k if they swapped Velothi in. They would lose 23.7k single target dps in favour of potentially 10k aoe dps and less reliance on perfect weaving. This is an even trade in my opinion.

If you have a problem with Fartcarver, tackle that first, instead they buffed it last patch for reasons? We'll see how the banner change effects the meta, but I'd maybe even wait for that to pan out before making any further changes to the single target dps side of Fartcarver. Realistically it's the competitive single target dps + insanely strong cleave that makes it overwhelming right now.

RaptorRodeoGod

Yes nerf something that enhances the problem, not the actual problem

MashmalloMan

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Yes nerf something that enhances the problem, not the actual problem

Esentially what my long winded comment was trying to say. Agreed.

CalamityCat

If the problem lies with arcanists, then any fixes need to be specifically focused on arcanists. Not gear that non arcanists also use. My non arcs use Velothi when I'm wanting to relax without weaving. Why should they be nerfed when the issue lies solely with arcanists and their skill lines/beam playstyle?

I'd also say that rather than nerf this or that, if the devs are happy with the power an arcanist has, then the focus should be on buffing up other less popular skill lines/gear etc so that arcanist skill lines are just one of many options.

robpr

Velothi on anything other than Arc enables to skip weaving altogether while retaining marginally lower total damage output. Beam duration makes the weaving irrelevant on Arc thus making it bis for them. So clearly, the problem here is Beam, not the mythic.

preevious

The problem is not with velothi. It's the beam that's too easy to make powerful.
Eitheir limiting the splash (like, only 50% of damage to adds behind the primary target) damage or nerfing the bonus damage given by crux should suffice.

madmufffin

Urvoth wrote: »

Velothi is the clear enabler for Arcanist beam builds and has been so strong that in many scenarios there's effectively no tradeoff whatsoever for running it. Removing the minor force and reducing the damage against monsters from 15% down to 10% would keep it relevant and viable for beam builds, while opening up more space for other mythics/monster sets and class lines.

Even other high dps setups like Dread builds usually run Velothi and it's been BIS for most content for several years now. It's about time for it to be toned back to allow more space for alternate playstyles and build options.

This would outright kill the item. It's used on most builds that aren't beam but outperformed by Selene's in the hands of capable players. Reducing it at all would be devastating to endgame PVE, especially when you can just reduce the tooltip on beam to get your desired effect without nuking every other build in the game.

SolarRune

I think most people would agree the beam needs the 10% buff it received in u46 reverted and that would probably make it more on par with other things

francesinhalover

whats up with the cancel beam stuff lol

If yall don't want to use beam don't.

Ppl like the skill and should be fine to use what ever they want lol. Game aint even pvp and on pvp beam isn't even that strong.

like yeah beam was broken due to banner. but that's gone now on pts.

Morvan

francesinhalover wrote: »

whats up with the cancel beam stuff lol

If yall don't want to use beam don't.

Ppl like the skill and should be fine to use what ever they want lol. Game aint even pvp and on pvp beam isn't even that strong.

like yeah beam was broken due to banner. but that's gone now on pts.

Not using beam and pretending everything is fine doesn't change the balancing problems, this isn't about liking the skill or not.

I particularly think they should be focusing on buffing the underperforming lines rather than nerfing down the overperforming ones, but either way, beam provide accessibility to players, but it shouldn't come at the expense of everything else being inferior by default.

Thalindra_Moonveil

No, it's also for players who can't be bothered to light attack, so no. I find light attacking boring and tedious, it also bothers my hand. I assume it's easier on a mouse. But before Velothi I was only playing heavy attack builds, now I put Volothi on every class I play cause even if I don't light attack I don't lose out too much.

gamergirldk

Stop trying to advocate for Velotih nerf, it is fine. This is neither overtuned or overused in builds.

We just have to face it,that this skill line and its passives is godlike good.
They ought to buff other classes aoe skills, so they are more on par with beam cleave, but we know that will likely not happen like ever..

You have to buff other aoe skills if they intend to nerf this, so people feel like they have other options that can replace beam.

I dont belive they can balance this skill without destroying it.

YandereGirlfriend

Velothi is good in comparison because most other Mythics are fairly dogwater and not worth using, having followed the typical pattern of release-OP-then-nerf-into-Oblivion.

Velothi has simply been lucky that there hasn't been a new PvE Mythic released yet.

Renato90085

as 1~2 year ago 2 time nerfed of light attacks,this mythic just no drawback
but ,yes ,it maybe dead when zos released other new pve mata mythic

Major_Toughness

imaslowlearner

Velothi is overpowered because it grants minor force which is a 10% damage buff to crit damage

Best way to nerf velothi is simply removing the minor force, instead have it grant major savagery/prophecy since there are so many sources of these buffs its basically useless.

pen and crit damage are the biggest damage increases in the game!!!!!
remove the pen line completely and just slap on 300 weapon damage as a safety net to avoid over nerfing it and still making it viable for use overland


Proposed changes would make it look something like this
(1item) Adds 300 Weapon/Spell Damage, Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Major Savagery/Prophecy at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical by 12%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.

Iriidius

300 weapon dmg is a full major (5) setboni while 1650 is slightly less than half so replacing 1650 penetration with 300 weapon dmg would be buff.
142 weapon dmg would be equivalent.

imaslowlearner wrote: »

Velothi is overpowered because it grants minor force which is a 10% damage buff to crit damage

Best way to nerf velothi is simply removing the minor force, instead have it grant major savagery/prophecy since there are so many sources of these buffs its basically useless.

pen and crit damage are the biggest damage increases in the game!!!!!
remove the pen line completely and just slap on 300 weapon damage as a safety net to avoid over nerfing it and still making it viable for use overland


Proposed changes would make it look something like this
(1item) Adds 300 Weapon/Spell Damage, Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Major Savagery/Prophecy at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical by 12%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.

Increasing 15% dmg to monsters for nonchanneled abilities only would keep velothi amulett viable for not channeled abilities but prevent too high stats for abilities where you not light attack anyway.
Could also be applied only to part of the 15%.

Estin

No. Even though it was the defacto arcanist mythic, the mythic is great for other classes. Nerfing it will only negatively affect builds/classes that aren't using beam (sounds familiar lol). Beam will still be far ahead of everything else even if velothi was nerfed, and there will be more of a push to play as a beam build because of it.

preevious

imaslowlearner wrote: »

Velothi is overpowered because it grants minor force which is a 10% damage buff to crit damage

Best way to nerf velothi is simply removing the minor force, instead have it grant major savagery/prophecy since there are so many sources of these buffs its basically useless.

pen and crit damage are the biggest damage increases in the game!!!!!
remove the pen line completely and just slap on 300 weapon damage as a safety net to avoid over nerfing it and still making it viable for use overland


Proposed changes would make it look something like this
(1item) Adds 300 Weapon/Spell Damage, Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Major Savagery/Prophecy at all times, increasing your Weapon Critical by 12%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.

No set is overpowered because of minor force.
With the advent of scribing, minor force is really easy to source. Relying on a set for it is an opportunity cost, actually.

Malyore

The velothi have already been nerfed into the dunmer by Azura, and you want MORE?