Sorcerer review and Update 47

Major_Toughness

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

@Major_Toughness

There's a brief delay before you actually teleport when casting Streak, and a player that isn't CC'd is going to be moving at a rate of at most 6.6 m/s (if the UESP move speed calculations are correct). A player moving at that speed only needs to move for 2 seconds to be squarely within melee range. A character fleeing using Streak is going to run out of mag using successive casts well before a character sprinting at the speed cap runs out of stamina (and they'll be caught sooner if they stop streaking and sprinting to reapply buffs). And if you're streaking through your opponent as sorcs commonly do, the net distance between you and your opponent is going to much less than 15m; they'll be moving quickly enough to be able to melee you in no time.

A small range increase is only going to buy players an extra second or so. It's not that big of a deal; You're very stuck on what is ultimately a very minor hypothetical change. It's also true that it might just be annoying for players who have used Streak forever and are accustomed to the current distance, even if it's beneficial. Maybe the solution to Streak being less useful in a high speed environment lies elsewhere, especially in the era of subclassing (though Magsorc's distinct playstyle is hard to emulate without two or all three of sorc's lines).

Please stop trolling. You didn't answer my question.

If speed is so easy to get, do you not have the same speed? Therefore you are always 15m, or 2s in your latest dribble, away from your enemies?

i11ionward

Suggestion for improving Daedric Summoning pet abilities

I'd like to propose a change to the Daedric Summoning pet skills. A frequent complaint is that pet skills occupy a slot on both ability bars, yet their impact doesn't justify the space they consume. My suggestion is that each pet’s activated ability should behave differently depending on whether it's activated from your primary or secondary weapon bar.

For example, here is the current description for Summon Unstable Clannfear:

Command the powers of Oblivion to send a Daedric clannfear to fight at your side. The clannfear's headbutt deals 358 Physical Damage, while its tail spike hits nearby enemies for 358 Physical Damage after 1 second. Once summoned, you can activate the clannfear's special ability for 4320 Magicka, healing you for 5121 and the clannfear for 2560. The clannfear remains until killed or unsummoned.

My proposed revision for Summon Unstable Clannfear:

Command the powers of Oblivion to send a Daedric clannfear to fight at your side...
(same base damage and summon description as above)
Once summoned, you can activate the clannfear's special ability:
On your Primary Weapon bar: costs 4320 Magicka; heals you for 5121 and the clannfear for 2560.
On your Secondary Weapon bar: costs 3510 Magicka; applies Minor Cowardice (duration of Minor Cowardice on the enemy 5 seconds) every 4 seconds for 20 seconds to enemies near them.

Of course, these specific numbers and effects are just illustrative. The core idea is to give pets different active abilities depending on which bar they're used from. That would make them more flexible and meaningful without needing additional skill slots.

madmufffin

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

MincMincMinc

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

or just balance dark magic and daedric summoning on their own because they have nothing to do with streak?

madmufffin

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

or just balance dark magic and daedric summoning on their own because they have nothing to do with streak?

But the issue is that Storm Calling is pretty obviously Sorc's "DPS" line, and should be treated as such. Balancing it in accordance with how we've seen all the other classes would entail that being buffed to relevance as a dps line. Making that line stronger while streak exists is going to cause issues for pvp. Because of that, Sorc's power continues to be watered down and split between the three lines at great detriment to the class.

hoangdz

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

It’s not Streak, but more so that the line between a balanced Sorc and a broken Sorc is very thin. U41-U45 Sorc is a prime example of that thin line leaning way too much into broken territory, while U35 Sorc was the complete opposite. ZOS should have just listened to me (StaticWave before my forum account got banned) and converted the burst heal into a HoT lol.

Anyways, Dark Magic is the best sustain line in the game and it allows you to use max stat food instead of regen food. When combined with the max stat passives, you can get very high tooltip values for your abilities. That’s a distinct advantage of this class that people always shrug off. Imo, ZOS needs to focus more on this advantage and give Sorc more passives that boost max stam/magicka so that people don’t lose value when stacking max stat compared to traditional weapon damage.

madmufffin

hoangdz wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

It’s not Streak, but more so that the line between a balanced Sorc and a broken Sorc is very thin. U41-U45 Sorc is a prime example of that thin line leaning way too much into broken territory, while U35 Sorc was the complete opposite. ZOS should have just listened to me (StaticWave before my forum account got banned) and converted the burst heal into a HoT lol.

Anyways, Dark Magic is the best sustain line in the game and it allows you to use max stat food instead of regen food. When combined with the max stat passives, you can get very high tooltip values for your abilities. That’s a distinct advantage of this class that people always shrug off. Imo, ZOS needs to focus more on this advantage and give Sorc more passives that boost max stam/magicka so that people don’t lose value when stacking max stat compared to traditional weapon damage.

This is only relevant in pvp though. The class can't just be made a worthless pile of skills in pve because it's functionally good in pvp. It's the same issue that warden has, but to a much larger extent since it has much less defined skill lines. There has to be a way for them to make the class appealing without just making it devastating to pvp (not that it really matters when NB can triple bow proc next patch)

hoangdz

madmufffin wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

It’s not Streak, but more so that the line between a balanced Sorc and a broken Sorc is very thin. U41-U45 Sorc is a prime example of that thin line leaning way too much into broken territory, while U35 Sorc was the complete opposite. ZOS should have just listened to me (StaticWave before my forum account got banned) and converted the burst heal into a HoT lol.

Anyways, Dark Magic is the best sustain line in the game and it allows you to use max stat food instead of regen food. When combined with the max stat passives, you can get very high tooltip values for your abilities. That’s a distinct advantage of this class that people always shrug off. Imo, ZOS needs to focus more on this advantage and give Sorc more passives that boost max stam/magicka so that people don’t lose value when stacking max stat compared to traditional weapon damage.

This is only relevant in pvp though. The class can't just be made a worthless pile of skills in pve because it's functionally good in pvp. It's the same issue that warden has, but to a much larger extent since it has much less defined skill lines. There has to be a way for them to make the class appealing without just making it devastating to pvp (not that it really matters when NB can triple bow proc next patch)

I mean the same can be said for Arc and NB. NB wasn’t that great in PvE before subclassing, but borderline broken in PvP. Arc isn’t that great in PvP, but always a must pick in PvE. I could just as easily say that Arc needs a buff in PvP and PvErs would probably say no lol.

Like I said, Sorc only needs minor adjustments to be good in PvP. If you attempt to buff it to the point that it’s good in PvE, then you may possibly create a broken class in PvP (unless you redesign the class completely)

madmufffin

hoangdz wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I feel like any potential to fix sorc is just ruined by the fact that streak is good for pvp. The class will never get proper focusing of functional skills because it'll become "broken" in pvp and it doesn't matter how awful the class performs in pve. At this point we just have to accept that approach it feels like, because every change just seems like trolling sorc enjoyers at this point

It’s not Streak, but more so that the line between a balanced Sorc and a broken Sorc is very thin. U41-U45 Sorc is a prime example of that thin line leaning way too much into broken territory, while U35 Sorc was the complete opposite. ZOS should have just listened to me (StaticWave before my forum account got banned) and converted the burst heal into a HoT lol.

Anyways, Dark Magic is the best sustain line in the game and it allows you to use max stat food instead of regen food. When combined with the max stat passives, you can get very high tooltip values for your abilities. That’s a distinct advantage of this class that people always shrug off. Imo, ZOS needs to focus more on this advantage and give Sorc more passives that boost max stam/magicka so that people don’t lose value when stacking max stat compared to traditional weapon damage.

This is only relevant in pvp though. The class can't just be made a worthless pile of skills in pve because it's functionally good in pvp. It's the same issue that warden has, but to a much larger extent since it has much less defined skill lines. There has to be a way for them to make the class appealing without just making it devastating to pvp (not that it really matters when NB can triple bow proc next patch)

I mean the same can be said for Arc and NB. NB wasn’t that great in PvE before subclassing, but borderline broken in PvP. Arc isn’t that great in PvP, but always a must pick in PvE. I could just as easily say that Arc needs a buff in PvP and PvErs would probably say no lol.

Like I said, Sorc only needs minor adjustments to be good in PvP. If you attempt to buff it to the point that it’s good in PvE, then you may possibly create a broken class in PvP (unless you redesign the class completely)

Night blade was already extremely good in pve before subclassing, but was gatekept by a high skill floor. At an endgame raiding level, it outdamaged everything with good players. Arc is kind of weird because its kit is very oriented to pve and pve functionality with the herald line, but I'm pretty sure some of the morphs could definitely be changed to make it better in pvp and not make it more broken in pve. Sorc on the otherhand is completely non-functional in pve dps in a post-subclassing world while still being underwhelming from my understanding in pvp compared to Assassination and Animal Companions for dps and many other lines for healing and tankiness. These changes make things even worse for pve and pvp.

Zyaneth_Bal

i11ionward wrote: »

Suggestion for improving Daedric Summoning pet abilities

I'd like to propose a change to the Daedric Summoning pet skills. A frequent complaint is that pet skills occupy a slot on both ability bars, yet their impact doesn't justify the space they consume. My suggestion is that each pet’s activated ability should behave differently depending on whether it's activated from your primary or secondary weapon bar.

For example, here is the current description for Summon Unstable Clannfear:

Command the powers of Oblivion to send a Daedric clannfear to fight at your side. The clannfear's headbutt deals 358 Physical Damage, while its tail spike hits nearby enemies for 358 Physical Damage after 1 second. Once summoned, you can activate the clannfear's special ability for 4320 Magicka, healing you for 5121 and the clannfear for 2560. The clannfear remains until killed or unsummoned.

My proposed revision for Summon Unstable Clannfear:

Command the powers of Oblivion to send a Daedric clannfear to fight at your side...
(same base damage and summon description as above)
Once summoned, you can activate the clannfear's special ability:
On your Primary Weapon bar: costs 4320 Magicka; heals you for 5121 and the clannfear for 2560.
On your Secondary Weapon bar: costs 3510 Magicka; applies Minor Cowardice (duration of Minor Cowardice on the enemy 5 seconds) every 4 seconds for 20 seconds to enemies near them.

Of course, these specific numbers and effects are just illustrative. The core idea is to give pets different active abilities depending on which bar they're used from. That would make them more flexible and meaningful without needing additional skill slots.

Great suggestion. Seems like a very simple yet efficient way to go about pets. However, there's still the problem of their fragility still remains. Could possibly be solved by some extra health and innate health recovery?

Also, personally, I would like for pet's basic attacks to be more meaningful, deal noticeable damage at least, maybe change their basic attacks and remake them into skills or somehow merge the 2, make them interact. Maybe make twilight's basic attacks a skill, remove familiar's basic attacks but instead give it a meaningful strong skill.

Neither negligible damage nor passivity of pets' basic attacks feel good. Same goes for their skills. Their damage is split between passive basic attacks and active skills making both bad, not to mention daedric prey eats a great share of their power budget too.

Turtle_Bot

hoangdz wrote: »

Anyways, Dark Magic is the best sustain line in the game and it allows you to use max stat food instead of regen food. When combined with the max stat passives, you can get very high tooltip values for your abilities. That’s a distinct advantage of this class that people always shrug off. Imo, ZOS needs to focus more on this advantage and give Sorc more passives that boost max stam/magicka so that people don’t lose value when stacking max stat compared to traditional weapon damage.

The issue I find with this claim (Dark Magic being the best sustain line), is that while technically can be argued for, it has the exact same issues as NB had pre sub-classing in PvE. It only really shines (in the way you are describing it as, being able to swap to max stat foods instead of regen food) in the hands top tier players.

The average player will never see that side of Dark Magic, and even mid-tier players struggle to see it. It's why we see the majority of players take Animal Companions and Restoring Light for their sustain over Dark Magic, even in PvP, because the sustain from those lines are on par with Dark Magic, but insanely more forgiving for lesser skilled players. This same reason is also why we see builds for average players set the bar for regens at ~1800-2k (using Orzorga's food/drinks), compared to the much lower 12-1300 for min-maxed builds run by top tier players.

This also ties into the whole "Sorc is OP", vs "Sorc is trash tier garbage" debate every single time Sorc is mentioned in the PTS notes. In the hands of a truly skilled player, Sorc is OP, but in the hands of an average player or even a mid-tier player, the class requires too much and results in a massive drop off in performance of the class that it severely underperforms compared to the other classes.

This mess is why I tried (back in U36) to put forward different morphs as part of my reworks to Sorc. 1 morph keeps the current high skill, high ceiling playstyle with multiple minigames to play the class well, while the other (new) morphs would lower that skill requirement, for a performance vs skill requirement that is closer to what the other classes have.

There is a way to solve this issue, but (as you said) it requires, not just a complete rework of Sorc, but also a complete shift in design direction, away from themes and role based skill lines to easy vs hard mode skill morphs with appropriate payoffs for each, which is a lot of work/effort on ZOS part and given recent news re MSFT layoffs, I doubt they have the team in place to do the required work in a timely way.

gc0018

Class change ticket please, ZOS. And new paid DLC allow 3 skill lines for subclassing. Don't waste time on the pathetic balance and just sell freedom for money.

Lebensf0rm

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Lebensf0rm wrote: »

@Major_Toughness

There's a brief delay before you actually teleport when casting Streak, and a player that isn't CC'd is going to be moving at a rate of at most 6.6 m/s (if the UESP move speed calculations are correct). A player moving at that speed only needs to move for 2 seconds to be squarely within melee range. A character fleeing using Streak is going to run out of mag using successive casts well before a character sprinting at the speed cap runs out of stamina (and they'll be caught sooner if they stop streaking and sprinting to reapply buffs). And if you're streaking through your opponent as sorcs commonly do, the net distance between you and your opponent is going to much less than 15m; they'll be moving quickly enough to be able to melee you in no time.

A small range increase is only going to buy players an extra second or so. It's not that big of a deal; You're very stuck on what is ultimately a very minor hypothetical change. It's also true that it might just be annoying for players who have used Streak forever and are accustomed to the current distance, even if it's beneficial. Maybe the solution to Streak being less useful in a high speed environment lies elsewhere, especially in the era of subclassing (though Magsorc's distinct playstyle is hard to emulate without two or all three of sorc's lines).

Please stop trolling. You didn't answer my question.

If speed is so easy to get, do you not have the same speed? Therefore you are always 15m, or 2s in your latest dribble, away from your enemies?

No. The answer to the question is actually in the "dribble" ("drivel" is the word you were looking for). For example: I'm 8m from you and stationary. You streak 15m at me. You are now 7m behind me.