It's time to reshuffle the other three base game classes

madmufffin · July 10

Given that subclassing now exists and has very strong implications on the intention and value of each skill line, I think it's time for ZOS to look to get the lines of all the original classes to better align with the role specific nature that they've added in the DLC classes. This is almost exclusively from a PVE perspective, but I don't really see anything that would outright break the balance present in PVP.

Templar: Templar is in a weird place of having a very clearly defined healing line, 1.5 dps lines, and like 2 tank skills.
Aedric Spear(Tank) - Add Eclipse and make this the tank skill line. Passives don't really fit the concept as they are largely damage oriented and probably would need a rework with bonuses being pushed into the Dawn's Wrath line, but at least the skills themselves would largely encompass the tank line with Focused Charge, Sun Shield, and Eclipse being together. Restructuring Radial Sweep to provide maim or something as opposed to damage would be ideal.
Dawn's Wrath(DPS) - Thematically I don't really see a great fit here to come over from Aedric Spear, but I'd say Spear Shards is probably the best fit as it fits the aoe damage over time concept the line has and kinda have the firey theme that the line leans towards. With Prism now being entirely worthless, I'd definitely look to carry over some of the benefits, be it the minor berserk or weapon/spell damage, from Aedric Spear to properly boost the lines damage emphasis. Nova definitely needs a rework to be a stronger damage skill comparable to something like Standard as it is already completely worthless and would reflect even more so in a purely damage oriented skill line.
Restoring Light(Heal) - In a great place for a heal line o7

Dragonknight: For the most part I think DK is pretty well put together relative to the intention of 3 funtioning lines. Passives fit for the most part and really just needs to swap around talons and chains. Adding a taunt to leap would be a cool addition as well as making things a bit more thematically appropriate.
Ardent Flame(DPS)- Add Dark Talons to the line. AoE, fire damage, increased burning, and a damage synergy. Everything about it fits with the theme and damage oriented nature of the line and it's been a huge part of DK's damage kit for a while now. Overall passives are in a great spot for the line and its intent as is.
Draconic Power(Tank)- Add Fiery Grip to the line. The skill for most of ESO's time as a game has been the iconic tank add grouping skill. Pretty useless at this point given the superior nature of the scribing chains, but still very much tank oriented and definitely not dps oriented.
Earthen Heart(Heal)- Not ideal, but DK doesn't exactly have anything else heal oriented or worth swapping around. Would like to justify moving stagger, but doesn't really have a reason to imo.

Nightblade: As the class that is the use case for ZOS being able and willing to change skill lines around, it's pretty much already sorted out.
Assassination(DPS) - Skills and passives fit the role
Shadow(Tank) - Skills and passives fit the role
Siphoning(Heal) - Skills and passives fit the role

Sorcerer: The class is an absolute disaster and the recent uneccessary nerfs just make it worse. All 3 lines are exceptionally mediocre on their own and none of them really fit a role based niche either. To make them functional within the modern subclassing era of ESO, you need to outright ignore thematic fit to brute force things being worthwhile while also providing significant buffs and reworks to some skills.
Dark Magic(Heal) - Add Daedric Curse. This is largely about just getting the skill out of the "tank" line and into something it at least thematically kinda works with. As opposed to making it damage oriented, giving some form of debuff coupled with magickasteal and/or lifesteal seems like it would be appropriate. Add Surge. As the "heal" line, it seems appropriate to move surge up here to allow for some personal buff access as well as the amplified healing benefits from Power Surge. Negate Magic needs to get a lot of love to make it remotely viable. Amping up the healing and adding some other buffs to it like vitality would go a long way. Passive wise, I would swap the effects of Exploitation and Capacitor to meet the needs of the new role oriented lines.
Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.
Storm Calling(DPS) - Add crystal frags and make one or both morphs do shock damage. Sorc desperately needs a class based source of damage and this is really the only option without creating a net new skill which we know isn't going to happen. Mage's Fury needs quite a rework as it's far and away the worst execute in the game and has no functionality aside from PVP kill stealing memes. Would boost it's tooltip to be comparable to other class executes around 1100 and then make it scale from 33% as that is now apparently the new execute threshold. Energized also needs a rework to be in line with other passives of similar nature either outright boosting phys and shock by 10-15% or dealing an additional 10-15% damage to sundered and concussed enemies. Either of these are comparable to similar passives present in other classes. As mentioned under Dark Magic, we'd look to add the minor prophecy trigger in this line while moving regen to Dark Magic.

While ultimately I don't think this picks up dead lines like Shadow, Dark Magic, and Draconic Power to a point of viability, it still helps create more value and incentive for one to pick the better defined skill lines for subclassing. Just for reference:

GloatingSwine · July 10

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Also on DK talons and chains are both tank oriented skills (immobilise and maim vs yank), Stagger is a tank job, and Battle Roar is like the only sustain left.

madmufffin · July 10

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

YandereGirlfriend · July 10

madmufffin wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

Clannfear could provide like Major Vitality while summoned or something. Right now, it's just a two-bar burst heal that every other tank class gets in a single bar slot. So it needs some extra pizazz.

GloatingSwine · July 10

madmufffin wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

Clannfear would be the tank pet because of the self heal, but you can source self heals now without tying up two bars, and your other changes functionally kill summoner as a viable thing, because the command-the-summons skill is now not on the summons line.

There isn't really an easy fix for this whilst summons retain their slot greed.

madmufffin · July 10

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

Clannfear could provide like Major Vitality while summoned or something. Right now, it's just a two-bar burst heal that every other tank class gets in a single bar slot. So it needs some extra pizazz.

Getting added function would definitely be nice, especially since it eats two slots while be rather mediocre at what it does

madmufffin · July 10

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

Clannfear would be the tank pet because of the self heal, but you can source self heals now without tying up two bars, and your other changes functionally kill summoner as a viable thing, because the command-the-summons skill is now not on the summons line.

There isn't really an easy fix for this whilst summons retain their slot greed.

Yeah aside from making them one bar or making them broken, I just don't see how they fit in the current game outside of heavy attack builds

pinkpom · July 10

Are animal companions not popular?

madmufffin · July 10

pinkpom wrote: »

Are animal companions not popular?

No love for Pablo the Bear

Urzigurumash · July 10

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

madmufffin · July 10

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

robpr · July 11

pinkpom wrote: »

Are animal companions not popular?

Damage wise its not bad of a skill line, but it looses in term of passives.
Dawn's Wrath gives both strongest execute in the game and 5% class skill damage done, Assasination free crit, Herald strong skills, extra status and free weapon and spell damage, Ardent poisoned and burning status damage, FoO and Venomous claw.

GloatingSwine · July 11

I've been giving a bit more thought to how Sorcerer can interact with the DPS/Tank/Healer split I think it's actually probably better for Dark Magic to be the tank line and Daedric Summoning be the healer/buffer line.

Swap Bound Armor and Conjured Ward into Dark Magic, replace them with Daedric Mines and Dark Exchange. Put the heal back on Ward so it can be a self heal for sorc tanks.

Make Exchange a group skill that sacs caster health for some kind of group buff which includes the owner's pets.

That would give the summoning line the group heal, group ward, and group buff options, and make grouping with it as a healer feel like an extension of its solo identity.

MincMincMinc · July 11

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Daedric Summoning(Tank) - Add Rune Prison or Encase. Either would work but I'm leaning towards Rune Prison as the cc component feels more tank oriented and taking the only outright heal from the class out of the healing line feels icky. I'd revert the nerfs to Bound Aegis as well since major resolve is in no way more valuable than 8% mag and minor protection. Passive wise the line already is pretty tank oriented, so I don't think it needs much change.

There's a problem with Daedric Summoning as the tank line which is that summons demand a slot on both bars and "what am I going to do with all these spare skill slots" is not a question tanks get to ask.

So even if they brought utility to the table for tanks you wouldn't be able to use them, and the only tank utility on this line right now is Atronach for team berserk.

Yeah the summons are largely worthless, but historically Clanfear has been the tank pet. Add in bound aegis, hardened ward, rune prison/encase, and atro and it makes it so that flappy bird is the only kinda dead slot as a tanking option.

Clannfear could provide like Major Vitality while summoned or something. Right now, it's just a two-bar burst heal that every other tank class gets in a single bar slot. So it needs some extra pizazz.

IMO we need to stop throwing major/minor buffs on everything. At a certain point its just making zos have to balance two scales at once. Active skills should be balanced as active skills. It is possible to adjust tooltips.

Subclassing has been like a grocery store for getting every major/minor buff in the game. At what point do we stop? When quite literally everyone has every buff? Ok at that point why bother having the major/minor buff system?

Urzigurumash · July 11

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

Hmm that's true, Claw and Breath are Draconic, but overall the core function of Talons is the CC, being the shared quality, though I suspect it's been some years since Choking Talons was in the PvE Tank meta? It's been quite a long while since Choking was effective in PvP, since back when there was much less CC Immunity.

Altogether I don't think anything should be changed with the arrangement of DK Skills, but I could get behind further buffing Empowering for DD and Choking for Tanking to give more power to those lines for those roles.

But for the Tank who wants to drop Ardent, or the DD who wants to drop Draconic, they can use Scribing as you say.

Urzigurumash · July 11

OP I should mention, that Skill Ranking graph was clearly PvE as you say. In PvP Draconic is very much a damage dealing line, with Leap and Inhale, in fact it does all 3 things for us, damage, healing, and mitigation, and in PvP, we need all 3.

I would say Draconic is a solid A Tier for PvP, but not S Tier, which is right where we want things. The consummate DK kit overall is mostly in a great balanced spot right now in PvP, and the class has usually been OP or UP in PvP.

So I advocate against any major changes for this class. I'm also an ancient adherent of the Akaviri Martial Tradition, I'm very rigid with this class as old mains should be expected to be.

Note: what goes for Draconic goes for Winter's Embrace as well, being the parallel line on the parallel class.

Vaqual · July 11

Hehe, so much for the "everyone is going to run cloak" panic.

madmufffin · July 12

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

Hmm that's true, Claw and Breath are Draconic, but overall the core function of Talons is the CC, being the shared quality, though I suspect it's been some years since Choking Talons was in the PvE Tank meta? It's been quite a long while since Choking was effective in PvP, since back when there was much less CC Immunity.

Altogether I don't think anything should be changed with the arrangement of DK Skills, but I could get behind further buffing Empowering for DD and Choking for Tanking to give more power to those lines for those roles.

But for the Tank who wants to drop Ardent, or the DD who wants to drop Draconic, they can use Scribing as you say.

The CC component and maim are wholly irrelevant in PVE, which is really the primary approach of the post. I don't think any of the above changes have any impact on the PVP meta from what I have seen or know of regarding the game's current state.

Urzigurumash · July 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

Hmm that's true, Claw and Breath are Draconic, but overall the core function of Talons is the CC, being the shared quality, though I suspect it's been some years since Choking Talons was in the PvE Tank meta? It's been quite a long while since Choking was effective in PvP, since back when there was much less CC Immunity.

Altogether I don't think anything should be changed with the arrangement of DK Skills, but I could get behind further buffing Empowering for DD and Choking for Tanking to give more power to those lines for those roles.

But for the Tank who wants to drop Ardent, or the DD who wants to drop Draconic, they can use Scribing as you say.

The CC component and maim are wholly irrelevant in PVE, which is really the primary approach of the post. I don't think any of the above changes have any impact on the PVP meta from what I have seen or know of regarding the game's current state.

The Akaviri Martial Tradition must resist, oppose, and crush the meta, rather than disintegtate to meet its fleeting demands.

madmufffin · July 13

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

Hmm that's true, Claw and Breath are Draconic, but overall the core function of Talons is the CC, being the shared quality, though I suspect it's been some years since Choking Talons was in the PvE Tank meta? It's been quite a long while since Choking was effective in PvP, since back when there was much less CC Immunity.

Altogether I don't think anything should be changed with the arrangement of DK Skills, but I could get behind further buffing Empowering for DD and Choking for Tanking to give more power to those lines for those roles.

But for the Tank who wants to drop Ardent, or the DD who wants to drop Draconic, they can use Scribing as you say.

The CC component and maim are wholly irrelevant in PVE, which is really the primary approach of the post. I don't think any of the above changes have any impact on the PVP meta from what I have seen or know of regarding the game's current state.

The Akaviri Martial Tradition must resist, oppose, and crush the meta, rather than disintegtate to meet its fleeting demands.

I think after 3 years it's a decently safe approach lol

Urzigurumash · July 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Talons are a bodily part of Dragons, like Wings, so it does thematically belong in Draconic

Could say the same thing about claw and breath too though. Ardent flame has the benefit of ambiguously covering fire so talons can be flexed there on the basis of role functionality.

Hmm that's true, Claw and Breath are Draconic, but overall the core function of Talons is the CC, being the shared quality, though I suspect it's been some years since Choking Talons was in the PvE Tank meta? It's been quite a long while since Choking was effective in PvP, since back when there was much less CC Immunity.

Altogether I don't think anything should be changed with the arrangement of DK Skills, but I could get behind further buffing Empowering for DD and Choking for Tanking to give more power to those lines for those roles.

But for the Tank who wants to drop Ardent, or the DD who wants to drop Draconic, they can use Scribing as you say.

The CC component and maim are wholly irrelevant in PVE, which is really the primary approach of the post. I don't think any of the above changes have any impact on the PVP meta from what I have seen or know of regarding the game's current state.

The Akaviri Martial Tradition must resist, oppose, and crush the meta, rather than disintegtate to meet its fleeting demands.

I think after 3 years it's a decently safe approach lol

The caution here is for the offensive aspect of numerous components of Draconic Power and Winter's Embrace. For PvP it is a miserable idea that these lines are "only for PvE tanking".

Is it true that Leashing Soul outperforms Chains for PvE Tanking? But nothing matches Burning Talons for Flame AoE DoT DPS?

Urzigurumash · July 13

Let me be clear what I mean here altogether, to me it's ideal that Choking Talons and Empowering Chains are buffed to increase the attractiveness of these lines for Subclassed Tanking and DPS respectively, while preserving the Tank Chains and the Damage Talons for the Pure DK who ought to find use in all 3 lines whatever the role or content.

Arcanist is the only class where the lines are totally neatly contained for the trinity roles, even in Necro there is overlap, although less than Warden. (Ruinous Scythe, Breach in Graveyard, Animate Blastbones, among others)

Urzigurumash · July 13

and I dont care if "no Necro dps is using Animate or Ruinous, no Necro tank is using Graveyard".

They could if they wanted, it's always been that way, the PvE Meta has no regard for any mechanical or thematic integrity whatsoever, its only desire is for more DPS.

MincMincMinc · July 13

Balancing the skill lines based on damage, tank, or heal is going to go over terribly. Instead of having 21 skill lines to choose from it'll turn into a hard meta of whatever the top 3 damage lines are, drastically hurting build variety....PvP instantly followed this because there is no stat tension between the different levels of damage stat. %modifiers like pen and Crit are already more efficient, then to top it off zos pushed us to have the ability to choose multiple crit skill lines......What did we think was going to happen.

Ideally zos would balance out skill lines to host all three trinity in each skill line. Sadly they did not follow this method with the dlc classes because it is much harder to do. So now we are up the creek without a paddle. If zos did differentiate classes to have one damage, tank, heal line than they should have implemented a subclassing restriction that only allows you to trade a tank line for a tank line.

Vaqual · July 16

I have to say I am rather enjoying Shadow and Draconic Power in my subclassed builds. If I have to choose between balanced, butchered and ignored, I think I just prefer it if they let them be. Not looking to take a gamble and get an outcome like the Lighning Form rework.

madmufffin · July 25

Every time I add Ardent Flame to a character, it makes me so sad seeing freaking chains instead of talons. Give me back my 4s cooldown of happiness

Drackolus · July 28

I'd make the exact opposite argument. Pure classed characters can only be viable if all their lines are useful for a build's mechanical goal. An Arcanist in group content can choose not to subclass in the same way they can choose to not wear any jewelry. Technically true, but not a real answer. Only one of their lines will ever be useful. You're not a pure classed arcanist dps, you're a dps with a single skill line.
If every class had one skill line for each role, then there's no good reason to not just pick three skill lines for that role, and never to keep multiple lines from your class.
In order for pure classes to be viable when subclassing is an option, each skill line has to be a reasonable decision, and that won't be true if they can't work together.

madmufffin · July 28

Drackolus wrote: »

I'd make the exact opposite argument. Pure classed characters can only be viable if all their lines are useful for a build's mechanical goal. An Arcanist in group content can choose not to subclass in the same way they can choose to not wear any jewelry. Technically true, but not a real answer. Only one of their lines will ever be useful. You're not a pure classed arcanist dps, you're a dps with a single skill line.
If every class had one skill line for each role, then there's no good reason to not just pick three skill lines for that role, and never to keep multiple lines from your class.
In order for pure classes to be viable when subclassing is an option, each skill line has to be a reasonable decision, and that won't be true if they can't work together.

Pure classes will never be truly viable again. That's simply the reality of the game now. Trying to continue to cater to that fantasy going forward for a small minority is pointless. The skills will still exist and be usable by 'purists' but can also be moved to more appropriate lines to allow for better functionality for people wanting to min/max and enjoy the power that the classes have to offer in their various roles.

xylena_lazarow · July 28

So the design philosophy is 2-3 one-stop-shops for playing competitive, the other 17 are purely aesthetic?

Probably makes it easier to balance the meta, but also makes the whole build system feel pointless.

madmufffin · July 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So the design philosophy is 2-3 one-stop-shops for playing competitive, the other 17 are purely aesthetic?

Probably makes it easier to balance the meta, but also makes the whole build system feel pointless.

Well the argument and general point of this post is that reshuffling each class' power into specific role focused lines would raise viability in all facets as opposed to right now where there's only like 4 good lines for each role and that's why they're vastly over picked in content for both pve and pvp.

MincMincMinc · July 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So the design philosophy is 2-3 one-stop-shops for playing competitive, the other 17 are purely aesthetic?

Probably makes it easier to balance the meta, but also makes the whole build system feel pointless.

Funny how in all the vengeance threads people cry for build diversity like on live...... meanwhile on live its the same handful of builds.

Assassin+Animal+storm+aedric
Trainee
BS+onslaught or Bal+dbos
Mono
RC backbar
Acuity or your favorite pen/dmg set frontbar