Totally Tone-Deaf Balance Changes

drip_fromtheinkwell

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

sarahthes

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

I mean, one of the reasons beam arc was overperforming was banner with the class signature script. And that's been gutted.

Firstmep

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

It's very much a pvp oriented change as storm.calling was one of the most used in sub classing.

madmufffin

Sorc getting nerfed for no reason again is just peak ZOS at this point

sarahthes

Quoted post has been removed

Run out of stamina?

Reginald_leBlem

sarahthes wrote: »

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

I mean, one of the reasons beam arc was overperforming was banner with the class signature script. And that's been gutted.

This change is mildly annoying but I am much more offended by nerfing all the ultimate sources

alpha_synuclein

sarahthes wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Run out of stamina?

With magic banner? Unlikely.

Sleep724

madmufffin wrote: »

Sorc getting nerfed for no reason again is just peak ZOS at this point

All the Nerf Sorc forum posts over the years finally worked.

NoSoup

Hahaha yeah the sorc nerfs are pretty brutal. If "sorc" pure class players were annoyed last patch boy oh boy are they going to be raging with this one.

The NB nerf is probably warrented but again is going to pee off a few NB's. But the sorc nerfs, hahah ohh gggeeeeezzzzz.

Dojohoda

Quoted post has been removed

Oh darn.

Vulkunne

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class (in PvP) has reigned as something uncanny and dominating for far too long. I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

drip_fromtheinkwell

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

The biggest problem is that right now, sorcerers, particularly magicka sorcerers, are way behind, in both DPS and survivablity. It's not even close. And it's a pretty disingenuous argument when they have not even touched fatecarver, which is vastly out performing anything sorc has in its toolkit, by far.

MashmalloMan

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

There's pretty much no pure Sorc's right now in PvP. Ward was gutted, Max Magicka scaling went from 18% down to 5%, Curse can be purged in an era where everyone is using Betty for free passive/reactionary purging, Bound Armaments is weak and easily dodgable, Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic passives are mostly weak, Mages Fury is a terribly weak and easy to dodge execute which was previously only good for timed Delayed Burst or Kill Stealing, of which only 1 of those things it does decently now, even then, Radiant Oppression is vastly stronger and although it can be dodged, ticks so frequently that you can't dodge the entire 3.8s.

The only thing people took Sorc for was Hurricane, Surge, and Streak. Hurricane was just gutted, meaning every player relying on the line for Major Resolve is going to seek elsewhere. You think they're going to pick up Daedric Summoning over essentially any other defensive line?... Restoring Light, an already popular choice?.. nah.

What if you wanted minor crit? You going to take Dark Magic or are you going to take Assassination? Both have a burst skill, but NB has much better passives and abilities.

Okay maybe you wanted burst and sustain? Well why would you take Dark Magic over Animal Companions? Betty, Scorch.

PvE? Everyone who picked up Storm Calling only did so after choosing Assassination and Herald of the Tome, of which both provide so many useful skills, that the only thing Storm Calling was used for was good passives with no ability activation requirement. For that same propose, you could take Aedric Spear and get a fantastic aoe spammable. Hurricane is a great skill, but again, 1 skill/and some good passives doesn't make an entire class competitive.

I don't understand, is your comment meant for a previous update because Sorc is not at the top right now. The only saving grace was Storm Calling, and they decided to nerf Sorc even further with little to no compensation in the other terrible lines just because of subclassing.

Vulkunne

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

There's pretty much no pure Sorc's right now in PvP. Ward was gutted, Max Magicka scaling went from 18% down to 5%, Curse can be purged in an era where everyone is using Betty for free passive/reactionary purging, Bound Armaments is weak and easily dodgable, Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic passives are mostly weak, Mages Fury is a terribly weak and easy to dodge execute which was previously only good for timed Delayed Burst or Kill Stealing, of which only 1 of those things it does decently now, even then, Radiant Oppression is vastly stronger and although it can be dodged, ticks so frequently that you can't dodge the entire 3.8s.

The only thing people took Sorc for was Hurricane, Surge, and Streak. Hurricane was just gutted, meaning every player relying on the line for Major Resolve is going to seek elsewhere. You think they're going to pick up Daedric Summoning over essentially any other defensive line?... Restoring Light, an already popular choice?.. nah.

What if you wanted minor crit? You going to take Dark Magic or are you going to take Assassination? Both have a burst skill, but NB has much better passives and abilities.

Okay maybe you wanted burst and sustain? Well why would you take Dark Magic over Animal Companions? Betty, Scorch.

PvE? Everyone who picked up Storm Calling only did so after choosing Assassination and Herald of the Tome, of which both provide so many useful skills, that the only thing Storm Calling was used for was good passives with no ability activation requirement. For that same propose, you could take Aedric Spear and get a fantastic aoe spammable. Hurricane is a great skill, but again, 1 skill/and some good passives doesn't make an entire class competitive.

I don't understand, is your comment meant for a previous update because Sorc is not at the top right now. The only saving grace was Storm Calling, and they decided to nerf Sorc even further with little to no compensation in the other terrible lines just because of subclassing.

I am speaking from my experiences with them in PvP, over time.

MincMincMinc

Vulkunne wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

There's pretty much no pure Sorc's right now in PvP. Ward was gutted, Max Magicka scaling went from 18% down to 5%, Curse can be purged in an era where everyone is using Betty for free passive/reactionary purging, Bound Armaments is weak and easily dodgable, Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic passives are mostly weak, Mages Fury is a terribly weak and easy to dodge execute which was previously only good for timed Delayed Burst or Kill Stealing, of which only 1 of those things it does decently now, even then, Radiant Oppression is vastly stronger and although it can be dodged, ticks so frequently that you can't dodge the entire 3.8s.

The only thing people took Sorc for was Hurricane, Surge, and Streak. Hurricane was just gutted, meaning every player relying on the line for Major Resolve is going to seek elsewhere. You think they're going to pick up Daedric Summoning over essentially any other defensive line?... Restoring Light, an already popular choice?.. nah.

What if you wanted minor crit? You going to take Dark Magic or are you going to take Assassination? Both have a burst skill, but NB has much better passives and abilities.

Okay maybe you wanted burst and sustain? Well why would you take Dark Magic over Animal Companions? Betty, Scorch.

PvE? Everyone who picked up Storm Calling only did so after choosing Assassination and Herald of the Tome, of which both provide so many useful skills, that the only thing Storm Calling was used for was good passives with no ability activation requirement. For that same propose, you could take Aedric Spear and get a fantastic aoe spammable. Hurricane is a great skill, but again, 1 skill/and some good passives doesn't make an entire class competitive.

I don't understand, is your comment meant for a previous update because Sorc is not at the top right now. The only saving grace was Storm Calling, and they decided to nerf Sorc even further with little to no compensation in the other terrible lines just because of subclassing.

I am speaking from my experiences with them in PvP, over time.

Right well my experience is that warden is over powered, so we should move netch to the winter line because it is a tank skill. Polar should move to the greenbalance line because it is a healing skill, etc..... (just an example, no I am not saying this is a good idea)

Solely dedicating lines to only have damage or tank or support is just going to power creep the game further. We already saw in pvp pre subclassing people had 1 damage line. Immediately after people had 3 damage lines. On UESP the effective power of something like a PvP stamsorc went from around 9k to 14k. Each skill line would be better off designed on its own, otherwise you should assume (already happened) people are just going to stack 3x of each trinity.

Major_Toughness

Firstmep wrote: »

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

It's very much a pvp oriented change as storm.calling was one of the most used in sub classing.

Or a thematic one, putting armour buff on a skill called Bound Armour.

Nothing else about Storm Calling is a defensive line. This change seems to be more in line with the changes to NB last year, moving Blur and Veiled Strike.

It's also a coin toss as the what's more common currently between Storm Calling or Restoring Light, I would argue it's Restoring Light.

What this change does do is potentially make Restoring Light a 100% pick for all builds which sucks.

EDIT: Somehow I did forgot that the best defensive skill in the game is in Storm Calling - Bolt. Although Streak is also insanely strong offensively. But I will admit there is some defense in the skill line

MincMincMinc

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

It's very much a pvp oriented change as storm.calling was one of the most used in sub classing.

Or a thematic one, putting armour buff on a skill called Bound Armour.

Nothing else about Storm Calling is a defensive line. This change seems to be more in line with the changes to NB last year, moving Blur and Veiled Strike.

It's also a coin toss as the what's more common currently between Storm Calling or Restoring Light, I would argue it's Restoring Light.

What this change does do is potentially make Restoring Light a 100% pick for all builds which sucks.

Lol already swapping to it for rune. It is just next on the totem pole. Cant wait for rune to lose its resolve because it makes more sense for it to be on sunshield....... You know, because sunshield is on a tank skill line, it only makes sense. Why should a tank buff be on a heal skill line?

Cooperharley

Where are the buffs?

Lots of (confusing) nerfs with a complete lack of balance in the opposite direction feels bad. What have we been doing since U46 launch other than gathering data?

Vulkunne

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

There's pretty much no pure Sorc's right now in PvP. Ward was gutted, Max Magicka scaling went from 18% down to 5%, Curse can be purged in an era where everyone is using Betty for free passive/reactionary purging, Bound Armaments is weak and easily dodgable, Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic passives are mostly weak, Mages Fury is a terribly weak and easy to dodge execute which was previously only good for timed Delayed Burst or Kill Stealing, of which only 1 of those things it does decently now, even then, Radiant Oppression is vastly stronger and although it can be dodged, ticks so frequently that you can't dodge the entire 3.8s.

The only thing people took Sorc for was Hurricane, Surge, and Streak. Hurricane was just gutted, meaning every player relying on the line for Major Resolve is going to seek elsewhere. You think they're going to pick up Daedric Summoning over essentially any other defensive line?... Restoring Light, an already popular choice?.. nah.

What if you wanted minor crit? You going to take Dark Magic or are you going to take Assassination? Both have a burst skill, but NB has much better passives and abilities.

Okay maybe you wanted burst and sustain? Well why would you take Dark Magic over Animal Companions? Betty, Scorch.

PvE? Everyone who picked up Storm Calling only did so after choosing Assassination and Herald of the Tome, of which both provide so many useful skills, that the only thing Storm Calling was used for was good passives with no ability activation requirement. For that same propose, you could take Aedric Spear and get a fantastic aoe spammable. Hurricane is a great skill, but again, 1 skill/and some good passives doesn't make an entire class competitive.

I don't understand, is your comment meant for a previous update because Sorc is not at the top right now. The only saving grace was Storm Calling, and they decided to nerf Sorc even further with little to no compensation in the other terrible lines just because of subclassing.

I am speaking from my experiences with them in PvP, over time.

Right well my experience is that warden is over powered, so we should move netch to the winter line because it is a tank skill. Polar should move to the greenbalance line because it is a healing skill, etc..... (just an example, no I am not saying this is a good idea)

Solely dedicating lines to only have damage or tank or support is just going to power creep the game further. We already saw in pvp pre subclassing people had 1 damage line. Immediately after people had 3 damage lines. On UESP the effective power of something like a PvP stamsorc went from around 9k to 14k. Each skill line would be better off designed on its own, otherwise you should assume (already happened) people are just going to stack 3x of each trinity.

Makes sense. The problem I saw with subclass, from the very beginning, there are too many instances where skills are having the same net effect. What is there a couple different kinds of burst heal out there? Are these skills in a proper setting now or just different flavors?

How do we set direction for these, do we scope them all independent from one another or choose to pick one and let the others wither away... should they get the summons treatment? I don't hate subclass, I understand there is work needing to be done but I think something like this should have required more preparation then and less shuffling now.

AdmiralDigby

sarahthes wrote: »

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

I mean, one of the reasons beam arc was overperforming was banner with the class signature script. And that's been gutted.

It's about a 3% dps nerf. You can run cavaliers charge and have a support keep up rapids for similar effect. They could completely get rid of banner for Arc "arcs can no longer run this skill". Arcs will still be meta. It's not the change needed.

hoangdz

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class (in PvP) has reigned as something uncanny and dominating for far too long. I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

I’m StaticWave, a seasoned stamsorc main on PC NA and a lot of PvPers here probably know me. I have been dabbing into subclassing for the past month and occasionally going back to pure Sorc (stamsorc in particular). I can say with utmost certainty that pure Sorc (both stam and mag) are at best B tier (A tier if using a very specific spec that I’m currently using). The rest are C tier and D tier.

ZOS continuing to nerf this class isn’t surprising to me. Before my main forum account got banned, I have already warned about this when everyone asked for total nerfs to the class lol.

MincMincMinc

Vulkunne wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've known many talented, respectable Sorcs.

But that said, Sorc class has reigned as something uncanny unbeatable for far too long. That said, I have never advocated to nerf this class into the ground but something had to give.

Now the burden of proof is once again on them. Time for those folks to start making decisions...

Do you stand with the changes or subclass? Only time will tell and it will be interesting to see this unfold.

There's pretty much no pure Sorc's right now in PvP. Ward was gutted, Max Magicka scaling went from 18% down to 5%, Curse can be purged in an era where everyone is using Betty for free passive/reactionary purging, Bound Armaments is weak and easily dodgable, Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic passives are mostly weak, Mages Fury is a terribly weak and easy to dodge execute which was previously only good for timed Delayed Burst or Kill Stealing, of which only 1 of those things it does decently now, even then, Radiant Oppression is vastly stronger and although it can be dodged, ticks so frequently that you can't dodge the entire 3.8s.

The only thing people took Sorc for was Hurricane, Surge, and Streak. Hurricane was just gutted, meaning every player relying on the line for Major Resolve is going to seek elsewhere. You think they're going to pick up Daedric Summoning over essentially any other defensive line?... Restoring Light, an already popular choice?.. nah.

What if you wanted minor crit? You going to take Dark Magic or are you going to take Assassination? Both have a burst skill, but NB has much better passives and abilities.

Okay maybe you wanted burst and sustain? Well why would you take Dark Magic over Animal Companions? Betty, Scorch.

PvE? Everyone who picked up Storm Calling only did so after choosing Assassination and Herald of the Tome, of which both provide so many useful skills, that the only thing Storm Calling was used for was good passives with no ability activation requirement. For that same propose, you could take Aedric Spear and get a fantastic aoe spammable. Hurricane is a great skill, but again, 1 skill/and some good passives doesn't make an entire class competitive.

I don't understand, is your comment meant for a previous update because Sorc is not at the top right now. The only saving grace was Storm Calling, and they decided to nerf Sorc even further with little to no compensation in the other terrible lines just because of subclassing.

I am speaking from my experiences with them in PvP, over time.

Right well my experience is that warden is over powered, so we should move netch to the winter line because it is a tank skill. Polar should move to the greenbalance line because it is a healing skill, etc..... (just an example, no I am not saying this is a good idea)

Solely dedicating lines to only have damage or tank or support is just going to power creep the game further. We already saw in pvp pre subclassing people had 1 damage line. Immediately after people had 3 damage lines. On UESP the effective power of something like a PvP stamsorc went from around 9k to 14k. Each skill line would be better off designed on its own, otherwise you should assume (already happened) people are just going to stack 3x of each trinity.

Makes sense. The problem I saw with subclass, from the very beginning, is there are too many instances where skills are having the same net effect. What is there a couple different kinds of burst heal out there? Are these skills in a proper setting now or just different flavors?

How do we set direction for these, do we scope them all independent from one another or choose to pick one and let the others wither away... should they get the summons treatment? I don't hate subclass, I understand there is work needing to be done but I think something like this should have required more preparation then and less shuffling now.

There were many instances of things like brutality, but generally those skills had strong enough effects on their own. Like critsurge and netch would still be used if you ran animal and storm for the heal or resource/purge.

madmufffin

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

drip_fromtheinkwell wrote: »

We haven't had the patch notes very long, but already there are a ton of concerning things to be seen: gutting sorcs... in general, really, but particularly their survivability and sustain at the expense of buffs that's already extremely easy to get, through scribing, sets, or skills. The relentless focus change is just nonsensical: there are so many ways to increase your critical damage rating that it'd be easier to think of how to keep it down.

On top of all of this, the one class that is demonstrably overperforming (take a look at the other threads in these forums and encounter logs if you don't believe it) hasn't been touched. Am I missing something? These changes are genuinely baffling and hurt anyone who doesn't take an arcanist skill tree.

I mean, one of the reasons beam arc was overperforming was banner with the class signature script. And that's been gutted.

It's about a 3% dps nerf. You can run cavaliers charge and have a support keep up rapids for similar effect. They could completely get rid of banner for Arc "arcs can no longer run this skill". Arcs will still be meta. It's not the change needed.

With the changes to relentless and the banner nerf, Arcs are down like 20k dps lol