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Subclassing Lowered DPS For Most Groups On Majority of FIghts
AdmiralDigby
✭✭✭
On paper (or via parse), damage went up 30-40% from UD 45 to UD 46 (subclassing). However I noticed something strange while looking at Logs. For alot of boss's, looking at clear times between old and new updates (even among same teams). Clear times stayed the same or actually went down. You can see an attached screenshot of Twins/Reef in VDSR showing this and is true for Oax, Bahsei, Orphic, Exarch, Chimera, Ansul (and I'm sure many more I didn't check)
First lets go back to UD 45 and see what the meta was. Well it was Arc (since it has been since they released this absolutely busted OP class). Here's why:
- Best Cleave in the game while still having great ST damage.
- Have the unique ability to DPS 20 meters in front of them and 7 meters behind them at same time.
- Relatively easy rotation
Lets talk about Azureblight (AB) now. AB was absolutely king for AOE fights. Which are the majority of boss encounters, certainly at least in the later DLC trials. Arc's were able to effectively use AB since their beam was DOT damage. Making the best cleave class in the game, even better.
Fast forward to UD 46. AB was nerfed into the ground & damage (for a few selective setups) went up by 30-40%. So why is damage not skyrocketing on every fight? The reason is due to the reduction in damage from AB roughly equating to the increase of damage from subclassing. Resulting in the clear times shown in this post.
What are the pratical implications of this? Well for my prog team. Last patch we were running 2 Arcs (banners) - 5 Plars - 1 DK (zenkosh). Many in my group don't like Arcs and plars had decent cleave and actually a hair better ST damage than Arc. We were able to clear at trifecta pace and hit % thresholds for current strats used. We lacked the cleave of all Arc comps. However AB gave us the cleave we needed to hit the pace & % thresholds needed. To put this more clearly:
1. In order to do the same AOE damage as last patch. YOU MUST PLAY 7-8 Arc DPS comps. Even then, you may fall short due to AB nerfs.
2. If your comp is not all Arc DPS, you will deal SIGNIFICANTLY less damage in majority of fights (that are AOE based).
3. This means...."Play as you want" is not being fulfilled.
The worst part of this, is ZOS actually fixed the problem of AB & Arc and didn't realize it. Since Arc beam is now direct damage, Arc's can no longer effectively build AB stacks. If they had made only this change and kept AB similar. Off meta comps using alot of ground dots could have an alternative cleave option compared to spamming beam. Even scorepushing groups may mix in some alternate builds for AB procs. A tiny bit of build diversity in trials that look like lazer light shows.
There will always be a meta.... I get that. Option A will always be X% better than Option B. The goal of the developers is to try and make X% as small as possible. You are utterly failing at this right now. Reverting the AB nerfs would be a good placeholding until you figure out how to have genuine pros/cons to Arc DPS. As well as balancing out many options among class's, including pureclass options which are dead in the water.
First lets go back to UD 45 and see what the meta was. Well it was Arc (since it has been since they released this absolutely busted OP class). Here's why:
- Best Cleave in the game while still having great ST damage.
- Have the unique ability to DPS 20 meters in front of them and 7 meters behind them at same time.
- Relatively easy rotation
Lets talk about Azureblight (AB) now. AB was absolutely king for AOE fights. Which are the majority of boss encounters, certainly at least in the later DLC trials. Arc's were able to effectively use AB since their beam was DOT damage. Making the best cleave class in the game, even better.
Fast forward to UD 46. AB was nerfed into the ground & damage (for a few selective setups) went up by 30-40%. So why is damage not skyrocketing on every fight? The reason is due to the reduction in damage from AB roughly equating to the increase of damage from subclassing. Resulting in the clear times shown in this post.
What are the pratical implications of this? Well for my prog team. Last patch we were running 2 Arcs (banners) - 5 Plars - 1 DK (zenkosh). Many in my group don't like Arcs and plars had decent cleave and actually a hair better ST damage than Arc. We were able to clear at trifecta pace and hit % thresholds for current strats used. We lacked the cleave of all Arc comps. However AB gave us the cleave we needed to hit the pace & % thresholds needed. To put this more clearly:
1. In order to do the same AOE damage as last patch. YOU MUST PLAY 7-8 Arc DPS comps. Even then, you may fall short due to AB nerfs.
2. If your comp is not all Arc DPS, you will deal SIGNIFICANTLY less damage in majority of fights (that are AOE based).
3. This means...."Play as you want" is not being fulfilled.
The worst part of this, is ZOS actually fixed the problem of AB & Arc and didn't realize it. Since Arc beam is now direct damage, Arc's can no longer effectively build AB stacks. If they had made only this change and kept AB similar. Off meta comps using alot of ground dots could have an alternative cleave option compared to spamming beam. Even scorepushing groups may mix in some alternate builds for AB procs. A tiny bit of build diversity in trials that look like lazer light shows.
There will always be a meta.... I get that. Option A will always be X% better than Option B. The goal of the developers is to try and make X% as small as possible. You are utterly failing at this right now. Reverting the AB nerfs would be a good placeholding until you figure out how to have genuine pros/cons to Arc DPS. As well as balancing out many options among class's, including pureclass options which are dead in the water.
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Cooperharley✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with what you're saying, but their "play how you want" mantra has never and will never align with the META just plain and simple.
Most people that play this game aren't doing this high level gameplay. ESO has never really been known for its expansive, deep and detailed end game. It's all the horizontal progression that's added that people have enjoyed. WoW is the opposite and is more focused on vertical progression and end game. As a result, I feel like many people are playing however they want and having fun and the small sect of people in end game that care about that won't be enough to change anything drastically unfortunately.PS5-NA. For The Queen!1 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭✭I personally think the major issue is that ZOS hasn´t left their trial model since Elsweyr (with the exception of a mini trial). All trials feel more or less the same to me, 3 bosses, 3 HM´s, and a completely overtuned trifecta (I´m personally not against difficult fights, just not a huge fan of the design choice of trifectas), most of them being static fights where AoE/cleave is super essential. If ZOS don´t want to adress the elephant in the room (fatecarver) then at least give us more variation when it comes to designing trials. Give us more mini trials, more trials where AoE damage isn´t welcome (or maybe even un-wanted due to certain mechanics) and where more single target focus is to be preferred. Hell I´d take fights that are more mechanic heavy but where super high DPS isn´t necessary the way to go. I´m just brainstorming but please ZOS give us better variation in how you design your content so there is a reason to put together a comp that isn´t 8 DD´s with fatecarver.Edited by Major_Mangle on 6 July 2025 13:44Ps4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -2 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭Major_Mangle wrote: »I personally think the major issue is that ZOS hasn´t left their trial model since Elsweyr (with the exception of a mini trial). All trials feel more or less the same to me, 3 bosses, 3 HM´s, and a completely overtuned trifecta (I´m personally not against difficult fights, just not a huge fan of the design choice of trifectas), most of them being static fights where AoE/cleave is super essential. If ZOS don´t want to adress the elephant in the room (fatecarver) then at least give us more variation when it comes to designing trials. Give us more mini trials, more trials where AoE damage isn´t welcome (or maybe even un-wanted due to certain mechanics) and where more single target focus is to be preferred. Hell I´d take fights that are more mechanic heavy but where super high DPS isn´t necessary the way to go. I´m just brainstorming but please ZOS give us better variation in how you design your content so there is a reason to put together a comp that isn´t 8 DD´s with fatecarver.
I agree with almost all of your points. However I just want a bandaid fix for the interim while they get this stuff together.
One of my biggest grips with trifectas is the no death component. Mainly because of how buggy and laggy the game can be at times. So many no deaths ruined by a DC, a mechanic glitching out. A lag spike. I think players should have to hit a base score. THat way if you have a death or two, but still clear really fast. You get it.1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭Cooperharley wrote: »I agree with what you're saying, but their "play how you want" mantra has never and will never align with the META just plain and simple.
Most people that play this game aren't doing this high level gameplay. ESO has never really been known for its expansive, deep and detailed end game. It's all the horizontal progression that's added that people have enjoyed. WoW is the opposite and is more focused on vertical progression and end game. As a result, I feel like many people are playing however they want and having fun and the small sect of people in end game that care about that won't be enough to change anything drastically unfortunately.
I agree, however being optimized for overland content isn't needed. So they can optimize and balance end game without worry about making overland "too hard". Even Vet Trial/HMs leave alot of room to balance around end game without effecting them too much.2 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been struggling with this too and I found that my subclassed heavy attack pet build lost 20k dps as compared to my pure sorc heavy attack build. No matter what I do (at least so far), I can't seem to get the builds to parse more than 60-65k vs my 85-88k I was hitting with a pure class heavy attack pet sorc. Frustrating because on paper, I should be doing more damage. I have more crit chance, more crit damage, more weapon and spell damage, and I even have an execute!
No, it doesn't work the same way it worked before. And a heavy attack build is super easy to parse consistently because of the nature of the build.
I don't get it. I guess if I want to improve my DPS, I'll have to build the Meta setup and drop the pets, but still. Super frustrating. So far, subclassing IMO hasn't been all it was cracked up to be.1 -
freespirit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I've been struggling with this too and I found that my subclassed heavy attack pet build lost 20k dps as compared to my pure sorc heavy attack build. No matter what I do (at least so far), I can't seem to get the builds to parse more than 60-65k vs my 85-88k I was hitting with a pure class heavy attack pet sorc. Frustrating because on paper, I should be doing more damage. I have more crit chance, more crit damage, more weapon and spell damage, and I even have an execute!
No, it doesn't work the same way it worked before. And a heavy attack build is super easy to parse consistently because of the nature of the build.
I don't get it. I guess if I want to improve my DPS, I'll have to build the Meta setup and drop the pets, but still. Super frustrating. So far, subclassing IMO hasn't been all it was cracked up to be.
I hate parsing but I took my HA Pet Sorc into IA last night and until I read this post I thought I was just imagining she was weaker than before because on paper she shouldn't be.
I was quite confused so I then took my Templar, who I have only made a couple of minor changes to so far, into IA next, she seemed to be significantly stronger!
I am not good with builds and thought it might just be because I have always prefered my Templar, now I'm not so sure. 🤔When people say to me........
"You're going to regret that in the morning"
I sleep until midday cos I'm a problem solver!0 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I've been struggling with this too and I found that my subclassed heavy attack pet build lost 20k dps as compared to my pure sorc heavy attack build. No matter what I do (at least so far), I can't seem to get the builds to parse more than 60-65k vs my 85-88k I was hitting with a pure class heavy attack pet sorc. Frustrating because on paper, I should be doing more damage. I have more crit chance, more crit damage, more weapon and spell damage, and I even have an execute!
No, it doesn't work the same way it worked before. And a heavy attack build is super easy to parse consistently because of the nature of the build.
I don't get it. I guess if I want to improve my DPS, I'll have to build the Meta setup and drop the pets, but still. Super frustrating. So far, subclassing IMO hasn't been all it was cracked up to be.
can i see your build?0