AOE needs to matter again for all classes

spartaxoxo

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

kargen27

I like the AOE damage my Templar does. The only thing keeping me from doing over 100K DPS is my clumsy fingers. Fingers are also the reason I can't play piano worth a spit. A better piano isn't going to help.

spartaxoxo

kargen27 wrote: »

I like the AOE damage my Templar does. The only thing keeping me from doing over 100K DPS is my clumsy fingers. Fingers are also the reason I can't play piano worth a spit. A better piano isn't going to help.

Jabs sucks now compared to its glory days. This is one of the skills I'm most annoyed with as an aoe skill

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I like the AOE damage my Templar does. The only thing keeping me from doing over 100K DPS is my clumsy fingers. Fingers are also the reason I can't play piano worth a spit. A better piano isn't going to help.

Jabs sucks now compared to its glory days. This is one of the skills I'm most annoyed with as an aoe skill

Maybe? I was looking at some logs from target dummies last night and my DPS is close to 30K higher on my Templar now than it was in 2021. I didn't look at jabs specifically to see the damage difference there. I haven't tried subclassing on my Templar yet so I might even get more DPS?

LittlePinkDot

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

Can you explain what changed with AOE damage?

Desiato

I haven't observed any issues. My non-arc dps still melt dungeon trash. The aoe cap is offset by the increase in power from subclassing. Consider that the AOE cap and Azureblight adjustments are completely offset by the power increase in trial groups, so this isn't just in my personal experience.

I seem to recall the aoe cap changes described in the context of puncturing strikes and fatecarver. I did searched the patch notes for the names of other cleave abilities -- including cleave! -- and didn't see them referenced. But if they were affected I haven't noticed.

I have tanked in vet trial groups with fundamentally u45 builds and in that case, cleave damage is definitely lower -- but these nerfs were surely designed mindful of the increase in power from subclassing.

Arc is easy and can cleave from range, but in dungeon runs I can easily outdamage decent beam-based builds as long as I can get to the trash pack as they start beaming.

Even when I'm parse healing or tanking with a decent group that out-parses me on the bosses, I usually do more than 50% of the trash damage in u46. My parse tank is currently using puncturing sweep.

Honestly, subclassing is the correct action here. If one wants their favorite character to beam like an arc, they can!

Pevey

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

Can you explain what changed with AOE damage?

I'm guessing it has to do with AOE DOTs specifically, as opposed to spammables. AOE DOTs used to be a lot more appropriate in a variety of settings. When skills were standardized for U35, the AOE DOT standard was set in such a way that it logically does not make sense to cast them in the vast majority of encounters. In another chunk of encounters, they make sense only for reasons not directly related to their own damage (like proccing Azureblight or backbar infused weapon damage enchantment). If you do the math, you will find that only in a tiny, tiny percent of encounters (where you can be sure that the target will be stationary for the entire length of the DOT so as to get its full power budget) does it make sense to cast those AOE DOTs for their own sake. I think that's pretty ridiculous. This was brought up many times in PTS feedback, of course, and was then and still is completely ignored.

spartaxoxo

Pevey wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

Can you explain what changed with AOE damage?

I'm guessing it has to do with AOE DOTs specifically, as opposed to spammables. AOE DOTs used to be a lot more appropriate in a variety of settings. When skills were standardized for U35, the AOE DOT standard was set in such a way that it logically does not make sense to cast them in the vast majority of encounters. In another chunk of encounters, they make sense only for reasons not directly related to their own damage (like proccing Azureblight or backbar infused weapon damage enchantment). If you do the math, you will find that only in a tiny, tiny percent of encounters (where you can be sure that the target will be stationary for the entire length of the DOT so as to get its full power budget) does it make sense to cast those AOE DOTs for their own sake. I think that's pretty ridiculous. This was brought up many times in PTS feedback, of course, and was then and still is completely ignored.

Yup. And ever since then they don't feel good to use

Asikoo

You may not believe it, but I'm coming to the forum this time because of that.

I want to start a topic about making all AoE abilities from all classes work the same way as the Arcanist's beam. What I mean is: when you cast an AoE with any class, it should hit every single mob from Telvanni Peninsula to High Isle, just like the Arcanist beam does.

I think this is a fair request. If the Arcanist beam can do it, why can't other classes have the same kind of functionality?


And please; stop focusing only on profit $$$$$$. Give us our game back and do something about all this nonsense!

Desiato

Asikoo wrote: »

I think this is a fair request. If the Arcanist beam can do it, why can't other classes have the same kind of functionality?

Because it's not necessary and many players hate the concept of class homogenization. One if the greatest parts about subclassing is ZOS can roll back their homogenization efforts. For example, with hardened ward.

Someone could make the same argument for any ability they want on their favorite class. Why not a DK themed invisibility!? Where is my nb themed damage shield!? and etc..

I'm sure ZOS will have skill styles for the style/theme/aethstetics crowd that cover all bases soon enough. Which I don't like for practical reasons of identification, but who cares!

Asikoo

Desiato wrote: »

Because it's not necessary and many players hate the concept of class homogenization. One if the greatest parts about subclassing is ZOS can roll back their homogenization efforts. For example, with hardened ward.

Someone could make the same argument for any ability they want on their favorite class. Why not a DK themed invisibility!? Where is my nb themed damage shield!? and etc..

I'm sure ZOS will have skill styles for the style/theme/aethstetics crowd that cover all bases soon enough. Which I don't like for practical reasons of identification, but who cares!

So, let me see if I understand you correctly.
When people ask for more DPS with Oakensoul, the argument is: “Pressing one button is too easy.”
But when the Arcanist hits ONE BUTTON and the beam hits mobs from Telvanni Peninsula to High Isle, the argument becomes: “Many players hate the concept of class homogenization.”

Damn. Lol.

So... as long as it’s the Arcanist doing whatever it wants, it’s all good? Yes?

BXR_Lonestar

What they should have done with this game when the classes were more rigid was make some classes better at AOE, and some classes better at Single Target. I think that was maybe their intent when the game launched, but somewhere along the way, they lost focus on what each character was supposed to do well, and then you had the Templar with the best execute in the game, even though the Nightblade is arguably supposed to be king of single target damage (its abilities offer the least amount of cleave damage), and the class with the best single target attack - the arcanist - was able to use that same ability to engage multiple targets in a straight line.

It kinda feels like subclassing was their way of saying "screw it, we give up. we can't balance this so we're just going to let everyone do anything they want."

Ph1p

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I like the AOE damage my Templar does. The only thing keeping me from doing over 100K DPS is my clumsy fingers. Fingers are also the reason I can't play piano worth a spit. A better piano isn't going to help.

Jabs sucks now compared to its glory days. This is one of the skills I'm most annoyed with as an aoe skill

Maybe? I was looking at some logs from target dummies last night and my DPS is close to 30K higher on my Templar now than it was in 2021. I didn't look at jabs specifically to see the damage difference there. I haven't tried subclassing on my Templar yet so I might even get more DPS?

Was that on the 21m trial dummy? It‘s hard to compare without more build and set details, but some of that increase also comes from the additional buffs that were put on the dummy as part of U35 in 2022.

moderatelyfatman

Asikoo wrote: »

You may not believe it, but I'm coming to the forum this time because of that.

I want to start a topic about making all AoE abilities from all classes work the same way as the Arcanist's beam. What I mean is: when you cast an AoE with any class, it should hit every single mob from Telvanni Peninsula to High Isle, just like the Arcanist beam does.

I think this is a fair request. If the Arcanist beam can do it, why can't other classes have the same kind of functionality?


And please; stop focusing only on profit $$$$$$. Give us our game back and do something about all this nonsense!

Why not make arcanist beam NOT penetrate targets but do a 5m cleave on the first target it hits like HA lightning staff. You wouldn't have to nerf any of the damage and the class will still parse just the same on the dummy but will pull it back closer to the other classes in actual content.

Pixiepumpkin

Asikoo

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Why not make arcanist beam NOT penetrate targets but do a 5m cleave on the first target it hits like HA lightning staff. You wouldn't have to nerf any of the damage and the class will still parse just the same on the dummy but will pull it back closer to the other classes in actual content.

That will work too...

VvwvenomwvV

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

Zos should add cleave back to the ticks of a lightning staff, and put the number back to a total of four.

Desiato

Asikoo wrote: »

So, let me see if I understand you correctly.
When people ask for more DPS with Oakensoul, the argument is: “Pressing one button is too easy.”
But when the Arcanist hits ONE BUTTON and the beam hits mobs from Telvanni Peninsula to High Isle, the argument becomes: “Many players hate the concept of class homogenization.”

Damn. Lol.

So... as long as it’s the Arcanist doing whatever it wants, it’s all good? Yes?

Apparently you didn't understand me at all because I didn't mention oakensoul. I don't believe it's relevant.

Yes, Fatecarver is unique to Arcanist in terms of a pure class. All classes have unique abilities. Giving other classes generic versions of them definitely does relate to homogenization.

There are plenty of Fatecarver threads out there. I don't like beam, but I don't think it's OP. I would guess most who think it's OP have never tried a shalk+whirling blades build for trash. Or Stamepede into the pack and use any AE. You know, when it comes to trash, LA weaving is essentially irrelevant to trash packs as long as one hits one, LA/HA/bash/block every 8 seconds?

There's a dk I play sometimes in dungeon pugs that doesn't have a trash build and he melts trash with blockade + talons + spamming flames of oblivion. Fiery breath an its morphs can work as an AE spammable too.

Now that everyone has access to addons, the concept of trash and boss builds is easily available to console users.

It seems to be the "power fantasy" audience that wants this so they can essentially play any way they want and have the same results as gamers playing a game by the rules to achieve the best results possible.

ZOS has given every class access to Fatecarver. Try it for yourself. I would bet it will underperform with the builds one is currently using if they are legitimately having problems melting trash packs with other AE abilities.

I play with players who use heavy attack builds. They are doing more damage in u46 compared to before after adapting. Content creators have shown the ceiling is quite high if the skill is there.

It's funny how our personal subjective realities relate to these topics. I play strong builds and it's rare for me to not do the most damage in a dungeon pug, even if I'm healing or tanking a normal. I have no beam envy when I'm playing a build without it. Is that because I'm an elite gamer? NO! I'm genx -- old and slow. I have tendinitis basically everywhere! I simply learned to play the game by the rules.

Most arcs are wielding green wet noodles. At least in my subjective reality. But when someone plays with me on my trial meta Arc in a gf pug, they are probably thinking "omg nerf arcanist that's op" -- yet I do more damage to trash (and bosses) with my warden that doesn't use fatecarver.

Pure Stamden vs dungeon trash in the image below. Yes, that's 329k dps. The other DD was an Arc. Of course it's cherry picked, but so is this discussion! Regardless, I can't recall anyone out-damaging me on trash with that character. The % is pretty consistent.

BasP

Yeah, I definitely agree that it would be great if all classes got access to more AOE damage again. I still find it a bit baffling that AOE skills such as Jabs and Shalks were nerfed, while sometime later the Arcanist's Fatecarver was introduced (which I believe is basically on par with Jabs without any Crux, and deals almost twice the DPS with 3 Crux - not to mention that it has a larger radius and can even hit targets behind you).

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ever since the changes to AOE, they have been expensive and low damage. This makes fighting packs of enemies on anything that isn't an Arcanist more tedious than it should be. There's an argument to just nerf Arcanist but frankly, Arc or not, fighting packs of trash just doesn't feel as good it used to on the other classes and hasn't since before Arc even launched.

Can you explain what changed with AOE damage?

These were some of the nerfs to AOE skills:

• Boneyard: Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 27%. Reduced the bonus damage when consuming a corpse to 30%, down from 50%.
• Winter's Revenge: Decreased the damage per tick of this morph by approximately 55%.
• Twisting Path: Reduced the damage per tick of this morph by approximately 38%.
• Eruption: Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 29%.
• Puncturing Strike: Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21%.
• Dark Shade: Reduced the damage per hit of this morph by approximately 25%.
• Sub. Assault: Deals approximately 20% less damage.
• Lightning Splash: Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 20%.
• Wall of Elements: Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 12%. Unstable Wall (morph): Decreased the damage of this morph's explosion by approximately 33%.
• Stampede (U33): Reduced the initial hit of this ability by 20%.
• Stampede (U35): Decreased the damage per tick by approximately 47%.

I realise that buffing every AOE (DoT) significantly would lead to even more power creep, but still, the fact remains that skills such as Blazing Spear are hardly worth using right now. Some buffs would definitely be appreciated imo.