Some PvP concerns for the update

Joy_Division

Over the course of the PTS testing, there have been two themes to the changes ZOS did make:

1. Rein in combinations that pushed powercreep (DK passives nerfs, Fatecarver changes, Daedric Prey, etc.)
2. Peeling back existing popular power generating tools that would be too strong with subclassing (in ZOS's words "...now that builds can better specialize with subclassing."

Ok, I don't necessarily agree with these changes, but fair enough, I can at least understand the logic of this approach.

My question is, why aren't we seeing this same approach in PvP where it is actually needed? I don't think healers using the Pearls of Ehlnofey mythic are too strong or broken. I also don't think they would be too strong even with sub-classing (there are better options than chasing more ultimate, which isn't really needed). But that got nerfed anyway because of sub-classing powercreep fears. Meanwhile, everyone knows 12 person organized groups, what are commonly referred to as "ball groups," are already broken. Somehow the tools they use (stacking a dozen HoTs, spamming AoE shielding, Rush of Agony that breaks the game's core combat rules, Snowtreaders, permanent major+minor expedition, etc., etc.,) are not being "peeled back" in anticipation of the even more broken combination these "ball groups" will roll out once this update launches.

This is more than a mistake. It is a blunder. There is nothing more unfun in all of Elder Scrolls Online than a ball group running amok on the third floor of a keep. Next update when they can mix and match their skills lines, the amount of collective power the better groups will have goes from broken to I'm not buying the season pass.

Other decisions I think are misguided:

Necromancers being limited to 5 corpses. This change literally inhibits the class from making use of is core mechanic, as has been repeatedly and correctly raised during every iteration of this PTS. The idea that the 5 Necros that actually log in on a given night are clogging the server with corpse calculations is ridiculous. If we are so concerned about calculations, how about we take a look at your typical "ball group" player:



Each class's delayed burst (Warden Shalks, Templar POTL, Necro Blastbones, etc) is delayed for a reason. Being able to double cast Merciless procs gives the Nightblade Assassination skill line (which happens to be the strongest one for PvP) an obvious advantage over the others.

Those people who play "pure" classes are going to get destroyed next update. Nothing was done during the PTS to close the power chasm between those who used sub-classing and those who did not.

The_Meathead

This is a phenomenal post that I fear will fall on if not deaf ears, certainly those that are too preoccupied to take notice.

Subclassing gives every impression of being a far bigger bite than the Devs can effectively chew, and even the PvE balance they're chasing for it seems rather incomplete and like a WiP we're gonna see playing out over the next several months (optimistically) or more likely several years.

Subclassing concerns for PvP seem to be entirely ignored at this point.

I don't know if it's because they're trying to herd us all into Vengeance if we want any sort of PvP balance at all, but it certainly has that feeling to me as a possibility. While I'd personally love Cyrodiil in its current to just get a few outliers trimmed (RoA in particular) and have a large change made in regard to Heal/Shield stacking (Ballgroups), they're hellbent on reinventing the whole wheel instead and pouring tons of hours and work into Vengeance. I can't imagine they're gonna keep up their real efforts outside that nearly as well, even if I'd much prefer it.

Double Spec Bow is gonna be absurd, and it's been stated since day one on the PTS with no alteration. I'm dubious about what's coming, but thank you for fighting the fight.

fufu_from_ps4

at this point, its quite obvious they dont really play bro. nerfing crosshealing to 2 stacks would reduce server lag and perhaps even make it possible to dent a ball group, but they are afraid it will hurt pve? pve heals are not subject to battle spirit plus you can already have like 10 unique hots not counting all the different set gear. 2 stacks per hot is plenty. the current strat for pugs vs ball groups is that the pugs leave. this is unhealthy and unacceptable. nerfing hots will level the playfield while still allowing them to be overly powerful (i think the teamwork and coordination SHOULD be op, but they also need to be killable as well )

everyone cried and told them that it kills class identity. we even explained how. they still tout this as being the opposite tho. goodbye class identity hello grey soup.

the worst thing, no one is talking about, besides losing all flavor and whatever essence of class identity was left, are the stackable delayed burst. everyone will be running blastbones with beetles, scribe skill, rush of agony (lol hey sypher whats this), and have 3 delayed bursts go off with a double stun.

then what? we gonna nerf anything good from any class and FURTHER kill the diversity.

people are just gonna quit. its already cheesy enough, then we will have 50k INSTANT AOE burst combos (by one person, ball groups will scale this). add in the fact rush still ignores the rules of the game and allows for a double stun, with proc damage, ANDDDDDDDDDDD the lag that has gotten WAYYYYYYYYYY out of control.... people just wont stay. it wont be fun.

what to do now?

you better give people a 8% buff to max hp/mag/stam AND a free 350 spell/wep damage or somthing. even then idk if i would stay for that meta bro. people will turtle until they burst, over and over. no more seeing the class, which build they are on, what their rotation is... blah blah blah

then on top of that.... the casuals are gonna get destroyed. super hard. they will lean into a hyper tank meta. it will be their only option really.

i think this will kill pvp. perhaps i am wrong. i also dont think this is fixable once it is launched. this will be a new game. a much worse game.

React

Crazy to think I posted that screenshot like two years ago now and they still haven't said a single word about HOT stacking in all this time.

SaffronCitrusflower

React wrote: »

Crazy to think I posted that screenshot like two years ago now and they still haven't said a single word about HOT stacking in all this time.

At this point it's obvious they don't care and aren't going to put any effort toward this fix.

None of this has anything to do with vengeance mode after all.

fufu_from_ps4 wrote: »

at this point, its quite obvious they dont really play bro. nerfing crosshealing to 2 stacks would reduce server lag and perhaps even make it possible to dent a ball group, but they are afraid it will hurt pve? pve heals are not subject to battle spirit plus you can already have like 10 unique hots not counting all the different set gear. 2 stacks per hot is plenty. the current strat for pugs vs ball groups is that the pugs leave. this is unhealthy and unacceptable. nerfing hots will level the playfield while still allowing them to be overly powerful (i think the teamwork and coordination SHOULD be op, but they also need to be killable as well )

everyone cried and told them that it kills class identity. we even explained how. they still tout this as being the opposite tho. goodbye class identity hello grey soup.

the worst thing, no one is talking about, besides losing all flavor and whatever essence of class identity was left, are the stackable delayed burst. everyone will be running blastbones with beetles, scribe skill, rush of agony (lol hey sypher whats this), and have 3 delayed bursts go off with a double stun.

then what? we gonna nerf anything good from any class and FURTHER kill the diversity.

people are just gonna quit. its already cheesy enough, then we will have 50k INSTANT AOE burst combos (by one person, ball groups will scale this). add in the fact rush still ignores the rules of the game and allows for a double stun, with proc damage, ANDDDDDDDDDDD the lag that has gotten WAYYYYYYYYYY out of control.... people just wont stay. it wont be fun.

what to do now?

you better give people a 8% buff to max hp/mag/stam AND a free 350 spell/wep damage or somthing. even then idk if i would stay for that meta bro. people will turtle until they burst, over and over. no more seeing the class, which build they are on, what their rotation is... blah blah blah

then on top of that.... the casuals are gonna get destroyed. super hard. they will lean into a hyper tank meta. it will be their only option really.

i think this will kill pvp. perhaps i am wrong. i also dont think this is fixable once it is launched. this will be a new game. a much worse game.

I also think subclassing will break PvP as we currently know it, and it will possibly create a wave of people begging for vengeance mode, when vengeance mode was sold to us as a test bed for learning how to fix the live PvP we already have. But instead of making changes to the PvP we have now all I'm seeing is ZOS focusing on vengeance mode.

SaffronCitrusflower

The_Meathead wrote: »

This is a phenomenal post that I fear will fall on if not deaf ears, certainly those that are too preoccupied to take notice.

Subclassing gives every impression of being a far bigger bite than the Devs can effectively chew, and even the PvE balance they're chasing for it seems rather incomplete and like a WiP we're gonna see playing out over the next several months (optimistically) or more likely several years.

Subclassing concerns for PvP seem to be entirely ignored at this point.

I don't know if it's because they're trying to herd us all into Vengeance if we want any sort of PvP balance at all, but it certainly has that feeling to me as a possibility. While I'd personally love Cyrodiil in its current to just get a few outliers trimmed (RoA in particular) and have a large change made in regard to Heal/Shield stacking (Ballgroups), they're hellbent on reinventing the whole wheel instead and pouring tons of hours and work into Vengeance. I can't imagine they're gonna keep up their real efforts outside that nearly as well, even if I'd much prefer it.

Double Spec Bow is gonna be absurd, and it's been stated since day one on the PTS with no alteration. I'm dubious about what's coming, but thank you for fighting the fight.

NoSoup

Having Vigor not stack would solve so many issues....

cuddles_with_wroble

NoSoup wrote: »

Having Vigor not stack would solve so many issues....

Toning down the cross healing is a start but they also have to vastly tone down the buff sets that allow them to run around with 12k wpn damage and max Crit damage while also having 45k health and 40k resists AND 30k worth of damage shields

Cross healing is an issue but it’s not the sole issue and removing it won’t solve the problem, they need to completely gut group play and make it far less powerful to stack every buff in the game

The_Meathead

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Having Vigor not stack would solve so many issues....

Toning down the cross healing is a start but they also have to vastly tone down the buff sets that allow them to run around with 12k wpn damage and max Crit damage while also having 45k health and 40k resists AND 30k worth of damage shields

Cross healing is an issue but it’s not the sole issue and removing it won’t solve the problem, they need to completely gut group play and make it far less powerful to stack every buff in the game

I loathe playing the same game as Ballgroups, though I don't hold it against their players for maximizing what's available (at least not when I'm being calmly objective. Please don't ask me in the middle of the moment. ) I've been pretty vocal about my disdain for what they do to Cyrodiil, but it's on the Devs to fix it and not the players to abstain.

So, all that said... yeah, it's ludicrous how long we've dealt with this. Stacked heals/shields should have been removed years ago but it's pretty clear after watching our Lead Combat Dev play BGs and not recognize what ROA looks like that we don't have anyone in charge with actual eyes on their product.

I don't know that stacked buffs are as big an issue and I'm not personally opposed to groups being extremely strong when they coordinate such things, but the current strength of BGs is insane and is a huge part of why so many people (I'm on the fence) desire Vengeance over current Cyrodiil. In my mind, the really really good BGs should probably be monstrous, but all the stacked Vigors and Shields + RoA is just such low hanging fruit/easy mode that even the marginal ones are god-tier powerful. It's stupid, frankly.

That should have been addressed, firmly, rather than the massive amount of man hours put into Vengeance imo, but it is what it is.

Now we have Subclassing about to make it 10x worse.

It really makes you question why you put your time and money into this game if you're a long time PvP player.

React

The_Meathead wrote: »

I don't know that stacked buffs are as big an issue and I'm not personally opposed to groups being extremely strong when they coordinate such things, but the current strength of BGs is insane and is a huge part of why so many people (I'm on the fence) desire Vengeance over current Cyrodiil. In my mind, the really really good BGs should probably be monstrous, but all the stacked Vigors and Shields + RoA is just such low hanging fruit/easy mode that even the marginal ones are god-tier powerful. It's stupid, frankly.

Just to give you an example of how strong buff sets actually are in a ball group environment; every single player in these groups at any given moment has more individual stats, ulti gen, and healing than an emperor with every single keep and scroll.

You effectively have groups of 12x emperors running around cyrodiil, who got to that powerlevel simply by joining a group and equipping the correct sets.

I agree that there should be some benefit to grouping, and that there is nothing wrong with coordination - but the current stats achievable by these groups via buff sets are just far too high.

The_Meathead

React wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

I don't know that stacked buffs are as big an issue and I'm not personally opposed to groups being extremely strong when they coordinate such things, but the current strength of BGs is insane and is a huge part of why so many people (I'm on the fence) desire Vengeance over current Cyrodiil. In my mind, the really really good BGs should probably be monstrous, but all the stacked Vigors and Shields + RoA is just such low hanging fruit/easy mode that even the marginal ones are god-tier powerful. It's stupid, frankly.

Just to give you an example of how strong buff sets actually are in a ball group environment; every single player in these groups at any given moment has more individual stats, ulti gen, and healing than an emperor with every single keep and scroll.

You effectively have groups of 12x emperors running around cyrodiil, who got to that powerlevel simply by joining a group and equipping the correct sets.

I agree that there should be some benefit to grouping, and that there is nothing wrong with coordination - but the current stats achievable by these groups via buff sets are just far too high.

Yeesh.

Consider me convinced.

Theignson

I was just thinking the same thing.

Ball groups plus subclassing will = hell.

May finally cure me of pvp

Afterip

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Duhne

ZOS don't do it because they support BGs in their current state.
If you're not in a BG, you're destiny is to get farmed

cuddles_with_wroble

The_Meathead wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Having Vigor not stack would solve so many issues....

Toning down the cross healing is a start but they also have to vastly tone down the buff sets that allow them to run around with 12k wpn damage and max Crit damage while also having 45k health and 40k resists AND 30k worth of damage shields

Cross healing is an issue but it’s not the sole issue and removing it won’t solve the problem, they need to completely gut group play and make it far less powerful to stack every buff in the game

I loathe playing the same game as Ballgroups, though I don't hold it against their players for maximizing what's available (at least not when I'm being calmly objective. Please don't ask me in the middle of the moment. ) I've been pretty vocal about my disdain for what they do to Cyrodiil, but it's on the Devs to fix it and not the players to abstain.

So, all that said... yeah, it's ludicrous how long we've dealt with this. Stacked heals/shields should have been removed years ago but it's pretty clear after watching our Lead Combat Dev play BGs and not recognize what ROA looks like that we don't have anyone in charge with actual eyes on their product.

I don't know that stacked buffs are as big an issue and I'm not personally opposed to groups being extremely strong when they coordinate such things, but the current strength of BGs is insane and is a huge part of why so many people (I'm on the fence) desire Vengeance over current Cyrodiil. In my mind, the really really good BGs should probably be monstrous, but all the stacked Vigors and Shields + RoA is just such low hanging fruit/easy mode that even the marginal ones are god-tier powerful. It's stupid, frankly.

That should have been addressed, firmly, rather than the massive amount of man hours put into Vengeance imo, but it is what it is.

Now we have Subclassing about to make it 10x worse.

It really makes you question why you put your time and money into this game if you're a long time PvP player.

the buff sets are the reason the heals and shields are so massive and the reason that every ability hits you for 20k.

in pvp the soft cap on sets and ability scaling is around 7k wpn and spell damage or 37k ish health, for a solo player thats pre much the apex of what you can get but ball groups easily sit at 12k + with max crit damage fully buffed up.

every heal, shield, set and damage ability are pushed to nearly the hard cap of their scaling and doing nearly pve lvls of damage and healing

Prionyx

Joy_Division wrote: »

Over the course of the PTS testing, there have been two themes to the changes ZOS did make:

1. Rein in combinations that pushed powercreep (DK passives nerfs, Fatecarver changes, Daedric Prey, etc.)
2. Peeling back existing popular power generating tools that would be too strong with subclassing (in ZOS's words "...now that builds can better specialize with subclassing."

Ok, I don't necessarily agree with these changes, but fair enough, I can at least understand the logic of this approach.

My question is, why aren't we seeing this same approach in PvP where it is actually needed? I don't think healers using the Pearls of Ehlnofey mythic are too strong or broken. I also don't think they would be too strong even with sub-classing (there are better options than chasing more ultimate, which isn't really needed). But that got nerfed anyway because of sub-classing powercreep fears. Meanwhile, everyone knows 12 person organized groups, what are commonly referred to as "ball groups," are already broken. Somehow the tools they use (stacking a dozen HoTs, spamming AoE shielding, Rush of Agony that breaks the game's core combat rules, Snowtreaders, permanent major+minor expedition, etc., etc.,) are not being "peeled back" in anticipation of the even more broken combination these "ball groups" will roll out once this update launches.

This is more than a mistake. It is a blunder. There is nothing more unfun in all of Elder Scrolls Online than a ball group running amok on the third floor of a keep. Next update when they can mix and match their skills lines, the amount of collective power the better groups will have goes from broken to I'm not buying the season pass.

Other decisions I think are misguided:

Necromancers being limited to 5 corpses. This change literally inhibits the class from making use of is core mechanic, as has been repeatedly and correctly raised during every iteration of this PTS. The idea that the 5 Necros that actually log in on a given night are clogging the server with corpse calculations is ridiculous. If we are so concerned about calculations, how about we take a look at your typical "ball group" player:



Each class's delayed burst (Warden Shalks, Templar POTL, Necro Blastbones, etc) is delayed for a reason. Being able to double cast Merciless procs gives the Nightblade Assassination skill line (which happens to be the strongest one for PvP) an obvious advantage over the others.

Those people who play "pure" classes are going to get destroyed next update. Nothing was done during the PTS to close the power chasm between those who used sub-classing and those who did not.

Why do you compare merciless to delayed skills if merciless isn't delayed?

Cold91

Prionyx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Over the course of the PTS testing, there have been two themes to the changes ZOS did make:

1. Rein in combinations that pushed powercreep (DK passives nerfs, Fatecarver changes, Daedric Prey, etc.)
2. Peeling back existing popular power generating tools that would be too strong with subclassing (in ZOS's words "...now that builds can better specialize with subclassing."

Ok, I don't necessarily agree with these changes, but fair enough, I can at least understand the logic of this approach.

My question is, why aren't we seeing this same approach in PvP where it is actually needed? I don't think healers using the Pearls of Ehlnofey mythic are too strong or broken. I also don't think they would be too strong even with sub-classing (there are better options than chasing more ultimate, which isn't really needed). But that got nerfed anyway because of sub-classing powercreep fears. Meanwhile, everyone knows 12 person organized groups, what are commonly referred to as "ball groups," are already broken. Somehow the tools they use (stacking a dozen HoTs, spamming AoE shielding, Rush of Agony that breaks the game's core combat rules, Snowtreaders, permanent major+minor expedition, etc., etc.,) are not being "peeled back" in anticipation of the even more broken combination these "ball groups" will roll out once this update launches.

This is more than a mistake. It is a blunder. There is nothing more unfun in all of Elder Scrolls Online than a ball group running amok on the third floor of a keep. Next update when they can mix and match their skills lines, the amount of collective power the better groups will have goes from broken to I'm not buying the season pass.

Other decisions I think are misguided:

Necromancers being limited to 5 corpses. This change literally inhibits the class from making use of is core mechanic, as has been repeatedly and correctly raised during every iteration of this PTS. The idea that the 5 Necros that actually log in on a given night are clogging the server with corpse calculations is ridiculous. If we are so concerned about calculations, how about we take a look at your typical "ball group" player:



Each class's delayed burst (Warden Shalks, Templar POTL, Necro Blastbones, etc) is delayed for a reason. Being able to double cast Merciless procs gives the Nightblade Assassination skill line (which happens to be the strongest one for PvP) an obvious advantage over the others.

Those people who play "pure" classes are going to get destroyed next update. Nothing was done during the PTS to close the power chasm between those who used sub-classing and those who did not.

Why do you compare merciless to delayed skills if merciless isn't delayed?

Going to go out and on limb and say it’s because both are high damage burst abilities. And while merciless isn’t “delayed” it does have a mechanic involved prior to firing.

RisKKR

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Most balancing issues over this game's lifetime could've been solved with Battle Spirit (by changing skills and sets), but these devs are just insistent that killing mobs and killing players can somehow be perfectly harmonised every time. They already used Battle Spirit to specifically nerf health recovery builds and use Battle Spirit in sets like Rallying Cry, so I never understood why they hesitated to use it more often.

The amount of skills and sets that work perfectly in PvP then get gutted or overtuned for PvE (and vice versa), is unbelievable.

cuddles_with_wroble

RisKKR wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Most balancing issues over this game's lifetime could've been solved with Battle Spirit (by changing skills and sets), but these devs are just insistent that killing mobs and killing players can somehow be perfectly harmonised every time. They already used Battle Spirit to specifically nerf health recovery builds and use Battle Spirit in sets like Rallying Cry, so I never understood why they hesitated to use it more often.

The amount of skills and sets that work perfectly in PvP then get gutted or overtuned for PvE (and vice versa), is unbelievable.

RisKKR wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Most balancing issues over this game's lifetime could've been solved with Battle Spirit (by changing skills and sets), but these devs are just insistent that killing mobs and killing players can somehow be perfectly harmonised every time. They already used Battle Spirit to specifically nerf health recovery builds and use Battle Spirit in sets like Rallying Cry, so I never understood why they hesitated to use it more often.

The amount of skills and sets that work perfectly in PvP then get gutted or overtuned for PvE (and vice versa), is unbelievable.

many people have said for YEARS that battle spirit could be used to balance sets and skills in pvp as sort of a soft way to split balance between pve and pvp and yet the devs have never tested this and instead keep trying things like vengeance which imo is an absolute slap in the face and truly a "screw it we give up" move

xylena_lazarow

Before u46, ball groups were unkillable gods. Now, they are unkillable gods.

Pixiepumpkin

Subclassing is the death knell for PVP. There will be the hardcore few with their fine tuned god mode builds who like to go in and 1 shot people for their enjoyment but the masses will not put up with what we are about to see unfold.

Battlegrounds will die.
Cyrodiil will stay dead.
Vengeance is the only PVP way forward but even that will need cool rewards to keep people engaged and unfortunately ESO's game design does not generally give out cool rewards when compared to their contemporaries like WOW, GW2, FFXIV etc. That stuff is generally saved for the crown store.

Tonturri

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Subclassing is the death knell for PVP. There will be the hardcore few with their fine tuned god mode builds who like to go in and 1 shot people for their enjoyment but the masses will not put up with what we are about to see unfold.

Battlegrounds will die.
Cyrodiil will stay dead.
Vengeance is the only PVP way forward but even that will need cool rewards to keep people engaged and unfortunately ESO's game design does not generally give out cool rewards when compared to their contemporaries like WOW, GW2, FFXIV etc. That stuff is generally saved for the crown store.

I've been surviving and maintaining PvP interest by doing BGs, but I haven't seriously invested time in Cyrodiil since...ever, really. I'm really worried this will kill the last iota of interest I have in PvP. I have a templar. I don't want to swap out jabs, backlash, charge, the cleanse, or the rune armor buff. I'm going to be taking a big hit when the patch drops because I don't want to turn my character into some sort of thematic monstrosity of a creature. I'm probably gonna have to build even tankier, too, if I want to survive the 2-3 burst skills that are now going to be hitting me at the same time.

dinokstrunz

I honestly get "end of an era" vibes with U46. The last remaining bastions of PvP guilds will slowly dwindle out with this update. There's just nothing to keep them going from here on out. The changes are unwarranted and feel like a desperate attempt to rekindle excitement in the game but its backfiring hard.

xylena_lazarow

Subclassing isn't what's going to finish off a dying PvP. It's a momentary spark of life in an otherwise extremely stale meta that really isn't even worth preserving. Pure classes aren't at the same disadvantage as PvE because you need more than just dps here. Nothing that was good in u45 is suddenly bad in u46, except for MagSorc, which somehow lost like a third of its damage. Things that were bad in u45 are still bad, but subclassing at least gives you an out.

Source: I've been living on the PTS for the past 6 weeks, mostly dueling because that's all that's going on. Barely touched live. The set meta is the same, lots of Rallying Cry, Balorgh, and friends. This is a good thing, I would much prefer new builds come from SKILLS than from grinding the new stupid broken 5pc gear set that everyone ends up hating. Stat burst builds and pressure proc builds are both good, though in duels the stat set BurstPlar strat was dominant.

There are a few gold standard skill lines that we'll see more than others, but no, there's no one skill line combo to rule them all. If anything is a problem, it's the Assassination skill line, which got buffed to the sky for no good reason (yet again). The double spectral bow spam is the worst offender, Surprise Attack hits harder than cast time skills and other classes' ults, and the passives give an absurd amount of crit chance compared to anything else in the game.

I'm still really looking forward to playing my Streak DK next week. I've been asking for it for years. If U46 wasn't something big, just another nothing-burger that leaves things mostly the same, there would be none of these threads, no hype, no controversy, no backlash, no debate. Players would just be quietly walking away.

MorallyBipolar

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

This is what people have been asking for continuously for the last three years and I'm sure the first time I heard it mentioned was more than 5 years ago.

It really is confusing to see such clear and worthwhile feedback being ignored for so long.

MorallyBipolar

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Most balancing issues over this game's lifetime could've been solved with Battle Spirit (by changing skills and sets), but these devs are just insistent that killing mobs and killing players can somehow be perfectly harmonised every time. They already used Battle Spirit to specifically nerf health recovery builds and use Battle Spirit in sets like Rallying Cry, so I never understood why they hesitated to use it more often.

The amount of skills and sets that work perfectly in PvP then get gutted or overtuned for PvE (and vice versa), is unbelievable.

RisKKR wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

@ZoS should add this or something:

Battle Spirit:
You can have only one healing over time effect of each type.

This will not affect pve players, but pvp players will only be able to have one each of Radiating Regeneration and Echoing Vigor.

Most balancing issues over this game's lifetime could've been solved with Battle Spirit (by changing skills and sets), but these devs are just insistent that killing mobs and killing players can somehow be perfectly harmonised every time. They already used Battle Spirit to specifically nerf health recovery builds and use Battle Spirit in sets like Rallying Cry, so I never understood why they hesitated to use it more often.

The amount of skills and sets that work perfectly in PvP then get gutted or overtuned for PvE (and vice versa), is unbelievable.

many people have said for YEARS that battle spirit could be used to balance sets and skills in pvp as sort of a soft way to split balance between pve and pvp and yet the devs have never tested this and instead keep trying things like vengeance which imo is an absolute slap in the face and truly a "screw it we give up" move

Vengeance mode has convinced me that ZOS is giving up on their current live PvP in Cyodiil as well. Remember how they told us vengeance mode was a testbed to learn how to improve current live Cyrodiil PvP? Well, what changes have we seen made as a result of the vengeance "test" exactly? Seems more like it was a social test more than a technical test in hindsight.

Joy_Division

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Subclassing isn't what's going to finish off a dying PvP. It's a momentary spark of life in an otherwise extremely stale meta that really isn't even worth preserving. Pure classes aren't at the same disadvantage as PvE because you need more than just dps here. Nothing that was good in u45 is suddenly bad in u46, except for MagSorc, which somehow lost like a third of its damage. Things that were bad in u45 are still bad, but subclassing at least gives you an out.

Source: I've been living on the PTS for the past 6 weeks, mostly dueling because that's all that's going on. Barely touched live. The set meta is the same, lots of Rallying Cry, Balorgh, and friends. This is a good thing, I would much prefer new builds come from SKILLS than from grinding the new stupid broken 5pc gear set that everyone ends up hating. Stat burst builds and pressure proc builds are both good, though in duels the stat set BurstPlar strat was dominant.

There are a few gold standard skill lines that we'll see more than others, but no, there's no one skill line combo to rule them all. If anything is a problem, it's the Assassination skill line, which got buffed to the sky for no good reason (yet again). The double spectral bow spam is the worst offender, Surprise Attack hits harder than cast time skills and other classes' ults, and the passives give an absurd amount of crit chance compared to anything else in the game.

I'm still really looking forward to playing my Streak DK next week. I've been asking for it for years. If U46 wasn't something big, just another nothing-burger that leaves things mostly the same, there would be none of these threads, no hype, no controversy, no backlash, no debate. Players would just be quietly walking away.

I would mostly agree with this.

It's not the 1v1 fights I am worried about. Because solo players still need to have defense, healing, and sustain, we're not going to see a crazy jump in damage that PvE trial groups will get since they can just 100% focus on damage. Also, I would welcome any shakeup of what has been a stale and quite frankly, boring, meta. I do think pure classes are going to be at a noticeable disadvantage, but it's not like we haven't been dealing with poor balance for over a decade now.

I am mostly concerned with the first part of my post: organized groups. Like the PvE trials groups, they can super specialize in designated roles without having to worry about anything else. When we ran, we didn't like that we needed a DK just to source brutality to the group. NB lead was only good for fear. Templar passives were good, but the class was not a competitive healer. We only ran Warden DPS because of Shalks. There were always arguments and decisions we had to make as to which class should fill which role. Now all the inefficiency is gone. The amount of healing optimized groups will output next patch will be insane. They will now have everything they want. That nothing was done to curb their already existing broken mechanics is incomprehensible to me, especially in light of the pre-emptive approach ZOS took with some of PvE powercreep.

As it is, whenever I get the urge to play ESO again, that lasts for about three weeks until I've had enough of Rush of Agony and the nonsense of organized groups running amok on the third floor before I remember why it was I stopped playing ESO regularly in 2021. I just don't have the patience for such stupidity as I used to, especially right now when I literally have so many new RPG options that are actually fun to play: Clair Obscure, the new Oblivion Remaster, Tainted Grail, etc. The only thing ESO offers is PvP. But whatever interesting cross class combos I might have an interest playing will immediately evaporate when I have to deal with this nonsense. If I could just have subclassing without Rush of Agony and the dozen HOT stacking, I might be genuinely interested in how things might unfold in Update 46.

katorga

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Subclassing is the death knell for PVP. There will be the hardcore few with their fine tuned god mode builds who like to go in and 1 shot people for their enjoyment but the masses will not put up with what we are about to see unfold.

Battlegrounds will die.
Cyrodiil will stay dead.
Vengeance is the only PVP way forward but even that will need cool rewards to keep people engaged and unfortunately ESO's game design does not generally give out cool rewards when compared to their contemporaries like WOW, GW2, FFXIV etc. That stuff is generally saved for the crown store.

Agree. I found vengeance too boring to play after about 4 days. Rewards would have to be very, very good to be worth it. Like the chance to get a skill point or crowns from rewards for the worthy, and so on.

As to ball groups, simple fix, hots should refresh the duration not stack. Rush of Agony should be removed. The silence from Sorcs should stick to anyone who enters for 4 seconds after leaving.

xylena_lazarow

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am mostly concerned with the first part of my post: organized groups.

I don't see how things can get worse than 12 organized dominating an entire 60+ disorganized faction until the 12 gets bored and leaves. That's where we are now, and nothing changes in that regard. Given how many more layers of problems are under the ball group problem, I'm not surprised their approach to solving it is to start over with Vengeance.

I think that group play in Vengeance could be pretty good if they keep the low 3 cap on AoE healing, but raise or uncap AoE damage so that smaller groups have a better fighting chance, especially in situations where it's say, 40 person zerg trying to defend against a 60 person zerg. Meatbags for breaking up open field zergs would also go a long way.

XIIICaesar

I said it in multiple places when Vengeance was announced, then when the test was live again. It's not a test to see what is needed to be done to fix or adjust current Cyrodiil. It's a WIP that's going to effectively replace current Cyrodiil modes. It runs better, it's less buggy, you get way larger & more frequent fights. Actual zergs not just ball groups. Skill based with no set bonuses or procs. That's where open world PvP is going.

The_Meathead

XIIICaesar wrote: »

I said it in multiple places when Vengeance was announced, then when the test was live again. It's not a test to see what is needed to be done to fix or adjust current Cyrodiil. It's a WIP that's going to effectively replace current Cyrodiil modes. It runs better, it's less buggy, you get way larger & more frequent fights. Actual zergs not just ball groups. Skill based with no set bonuses or procs. That's where open world PvP is going.

I've seen people state that it's more "skill based" several times, and while I get what they are seeking to imply I feel like pedantically I need to object. Working with or against set bonuses, procs, things like Mech Acuity for timing, watching for the effects of your enemy to suggest what they're running, all of that is far more skill based than what we saw in the first go of Vengeance. Vengeance's foot speed also limited a lot of "skill" range, but I'll admit I rather enjoyed that.

That initial Vengeance campaign was a lot like racing single speed go-carts on a straight track, as opposed to the usual craziness of F1 cars racing against tanks, dirt bikes, and helicopters we see in typical Cyrodiil. While it was WONDERFUL to not have Ballgroups or pull sets present, it was most definitely not a place for skill to be displayed in any greater quantity. There may not have been players being carried to some extent by better theorycrafting or set combinations (and I understand THAT is your emphasis), but really elite PvPers (not me haha) stand out a lot more when the spectrum for not just power but also variability is a lot, lot larger than what got in Vengeance version one. There just wasn't enough range in dynamics in Vengeance to really quantify, because it was so simplified.

We'll see how the next one feels. I hope there's a sweet spot where we really get some complexity and large amounts of personal customization but ALSO keep ridiculous stacked heals/shields (ballgroups) and awful pull sets from wrecking it for the bulk of players.

While I'd absolutely prefer ZOS just removes heal/shield stacking, makes RoA work only on monsters, and frankly pays attention to their own damn game enough to know what they're looking at, I think that ship has sailed and we're gonna be left with Vengeance campaign(s) as the only one they bother even trying to balance, while the rest is just the Wild Wild West and burns itself to an unpopulated crisp.