[Spoilers] Is Our Decision Regarding The Fate Of Mannimarco, Canonically Decided Now?

randconfig

Just started reading the new post on lore for the upcoming update (https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/68073)

So my question is, when we decide to leave Mannimarco to suffer or save him by setting him free, is our choice no longer cannon? Wondering this because the new lore post says, "With the demise of Mannimarco during the events of the Planemeld, who leads the returned Order of the Black Worm?", that implies that Mannimarco was never set free.

So is this a situation similar to when you sacrifice Lyris or Sai Sahan, instead of the Prophet, but the expansions ignore your choice and show Lyris and Sai Sahan alive implying the Prophet was canonically the one sacrificed?

spartaxoxo

I have a feeling that reports of Mannimarco's death are greatly exaggerated.

SpaceElf

It seems like it was one of those player decisions that would not impact his ultimate fate. Freeing him didn't necessarily imply release/escape from Coldharbour itself.

Alaztor91

I wonder how this will make sense when we already knew that Mannimarco was alive because he reappears in Oblivion.

randconfig

Alaztor91 wrote: »

I wonder how this will make sense when we already knew that Mannimarco was alive because he reappears in Oblivion.

Hmm maybe it's the eye of the queen's lack of knowledge regarding Mannimarco's ultimate fate, since he was never there when we encountered Mannimarco during the end of the main questline. So the eye of the queen only knows that Mannimarco was defeated physically, but that his spirit survives in coldharbour or is freed by us depending on our choice...

Either way, you're right since Mannimarco somehow gets free and resurrects himself since he's in Oblivion.

SpaceElf

randconfig wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

I wonder how this will make sense when we already knew that Mannimarco was alive because he reappears in Oblivion.

Hmm maybe it's the eye of the queen's lack of knowledge regarding Mannimarco's ultimate fate, since he was never there when we encountered Mannimarco during the end of the main questline. So the eye of the queen only knows that Mannimarco was defeated physically, but that his spirit survives in coldharbour or is freed by us depending on our choice...

Either way, you're right since Mannimarco somehow gets free and resurrects himself since he's in Oblivion.

Would this imply Mannimarco is a form of vestige now?

The Uninvited

Demise doesn't necessarily mean death.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Alaztor91 wrote: »

I wonder how this will make sense when we already knew that Mannimarco was alive because he reappears in Oblivion.

Well here is a theory.

That is not Mannimarco, just some Altmer using his name, notice how he is old in Oblivion where as Mannimarco is supposed to be a Lich also his voice is completely different not to mention his ambition in Oblivion seems kind of out of character, Mannimarco had ambitions such as Godhood so why the hell is he wasting his time with the Mage's Guild?

As for Daggerfall, the King of Worms is never called Mannimarco by name, could actually be that new Necromancer Lord and he is the one who became a God at the end of Daggerfall.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have a feeling that reports of Mannimarco's death are greatly exaggerated.

I have a feeling that the tall mysterious Altmer "Wormblood" - who, for absolutely unknown reasons, wears a mask and only whispers - will be revealed as Mannimarco in a "surprising plot twist".

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have a feeling that reports of Mannimarco's death are greatly exaggerated.

I have a feeling that the tall mysterious Altmer "Wormblood" - who, for absolutely unknown reasons, wears a mask and only whispers - will be revealed as Mannimarco in a "surprising plot twist".

Probably, people tend to wear masks in order to "hide" their identity.

Danikat

Unfortunately for us Mannimarco is not an easy person to get rid of. Even before the events of ESO were added in he was believed to have been killed several times and kept coming back. Before Oblivion he was in Daggerfall where he was an undead lich known as the King of Worms (he's not called Mannimarco in the game, but books in Morrowind give him that name), so we always knew he would survive the events of ESO in one form of another. At some point between ESO and Arena he has a massive show-down with the Mages Guild where he was supposedly killed, but he might have been a lich before then.

The choice we make in the main story was always ambiguous. Leaving him there didn't mean he never got out, only that we didn't help, and as SpaceElf said freeing him didn't mean he got out of Coldharbour.

I'd say we'll probably find out what happened to him during this expansion, but the only person who knows for sure is Mannimarco and I wouldn't trust a word he says, especially about his own abilities.

randconfig

Danikat wrote: »

Unfortunately for us Mannimarco is not an easy person to get rid of. Even before the events of ESO were added in he was believed to have been killed several times and kept coming back. Before Oblivion he was in Daggerfall where he was an undead lich known as the King of Worms (he's not called Mannimarco in the game, but books in Morrowind give him that name), so we always knew he would survive the events of ESO in one form of another. At some point between ESO and Arena he has a massive show-down with the Mages Guild where he was supposedly killed, but he might have been a lich before then.

The choice we make in the main story was always ambiguous. Leaving him there didn't mean he never got out, only that we didn't help, and as SpaceElf said freeing him didn't mean he got out of Coldharbour.

I'd say we'll probably find out what happened to him during this expansion, but the only person who knows for sure is Mannimarco and I wouldn't trust a word he says, especially about his own abilities.

Another theory, perhaps one that's not directly responsible for the upcoming events, is that Ithelia's brief return has likely altered our timeline in ways we're still unaware of.

ghastley

Doesn't Mannimarco resurrect himself at one point in the MQ before Molag Bal hauls him off for punishment? If he can do it once, he can do it again.

AcadianPaladin

My elf is still angry that when the Prophet said one of the original Five Companions needed to be sacrificed he wouldn't take her suggestion to grab Mannimarco who was tied up quite close to where they were. That silly decision cost the Prophet his life.

Mannimarco will be back of course.

LootAllTheStuff

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My elf is still angry that when the Prophet said one of the original Five Companions needed to be sacrificed he wouldn't take her suggestion to grab Mannimarco who was tied up quite close to where they were. That silly decision cost the Prophet his life.

Mannimarco will be back of course.

Absolutely. There's even a poem about it that survived to the time of the events in Skyrim:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mannimarco,_King_of_Worms

randconfig

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My elf is still angry that when the Prophet said one of the original Five Companions needed to be sacrificed he wouldn't take her suggestion to grab Mannimarco who was tied up quite close to where they were. That silly decision cost the Prophet his life.

Mannimarco will be back of course.

To be fair, I think the sacrifice needed to be willing and physically be alive, so Mannimarco probably wouldn't have been able to be the sacrifice lol.

Carcamongus

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have a feeling that reports of Mannimarco's death are greatly exaggerated.

I have a feeling that the tall mysterious Altmer "Wormblood" - who, for absolutely unknown reasons, wears a mask and only whispers - will be revealed as Mannimarco in a "surprising plot twist".

Or, to twist an awful plot twist, it turns out Wormblood is the Ascendant Lord. Zing!

Syldras

Carcamongus wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I have a feeling that reports of Mannimarco's death are greatly exaggerated.

I have a feeling that the tall mysterious Altmer "Wormblood" - who, for absolutely unknown reasons, wears a mask and only whispers - will be revealed as Mannimarco in a "surprising plot twist".

Or, to twist an awful plot twist, it turns out Wormblood is the Ascendant Lord. Zing!

And what happened to Mannimarco then? Please don't tell me he's hiding in my wine cellar between the Russafeld Red and the Pyandonean Merlot!

The infestation I had with these things a years ago was bad enough:

LootAllTheStuff

Just replaying the main quest, where you get to kill Mannimarco but his spirit is set to raise himself back to life as an even more powerful version of himself. It doesn't quite work out for him, of course, but a reminder that he's set himself up in such a way that he can always be brought back to life. Whether he actually gets more - or less - powerful each time is an interesting thaumaturgical conundrum.

Syldras

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Just replaying the main quest, where you get to kill Mannimarco but his spirit is set to raise himself back to life as an even more powerful version of himself. It doesn't quite work out for him, of course, but a reminder that he's set himself up in such a way that he can always be brought back to life. Whether he actually gets more - or less - powerful each time is an interesting thaumaturgical conundrum.

That could probably hint on him already being a lich? Or is any other explanation given?

PrinceShroob

Mannimarco did die beneath Sancre Tor, though he had a contingency. However, unfortunately for him, before he could enact it and "rise up from the grave and ascend to godhood," as he puts it, Molag Bal takes his soul to Coldharbour for punishment.

Mannimarco states that he is "neither alive nor dead" when questioned on whether he is still alive. Everyone else who appears in Heart's Grief is also dead, but appears similarly to when they were alive; this may be an additional torture of Molag Bal's--the souls are already in his thrall, but he's given them a physical form so that he can torment them further.

If you set Mannimarco free in Heart's Grief, he is presumably still dead and still trapped in Coldharbour--free from Molag Bal's clutches, but unable to escape. Of course, most people in Tamriel wouldn't know that anything happened to Mannimarco's soul, so for all intents and purposes, he's just dead.

---

As for Mannimarco's appearance in Oblivion, and whether he's really dead... Hannibal Traven's plan to defeat Mannimarco relies on a special black soul gem. Traven says that the gem "is meant to house [his] very own soul, to be absorbed by Mannimarco and increase his power." Traven goes on to explain that, by trapping his own soul inside it, "With this gem in your possession, you will be impervious to his attempt to enthrall you." You can, in fact, see Mannimarco attempt to cast a second spell after the Paralyze spell he uses to gloat to the player.

My theory is that Traven managed to sabotage Mannimarco's powers from inside the soul gem. Traven forced Mannimarco to absorb his soul, and somehow, with the occupant being a willing sacrifice instead of a subjugated captive, the gem not only nullifies Mannimarco's most devastating attack, but also weakens him and deprives him of his other powers.

So, I'd say, since the game and later games don't make any mention of Mannimarco returning, he's quite dead, and permanently, too. Of course, thanks to the Warp in the West, a version of Mannimarco continues to exist as the Necromancer's Moon.

--

If you want to know Wormblood's actual deal (spoilers for Solstice, obviously):

Wormblood intends to sacrifice the captive Vanus Galerion to resurrect Mannimarco. You foil his plans, but Mannimarco is able to take command of Wormblood's body instead, thus returning to life anyway.

As Wormblood seems to be voiced by Robbie Daymond, and post-resurrection Mannimarco has Wormblood's voice, this appears to be a compromise: Jim Ward, Mannimarco's original voice actor, had to retire from voice acting due to complications from COVID-19. That allows the writers to bring the character back without doing the disservice to Ward's career of replacing Mannimarco's voice acting.

FabresFour

The funny part is that regardless of your choice, once you go through the door, an earthquake happens. If you go back to the room where he was, he's gone—even if you decided to keep him locked up lol.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Mannimarco did die beneath Sancre Tor, though he had a contingency. However, unfortunately for him, before he could enact it and "rise up from the grave and ascend to godhood," as he puts it, Molag Bal takes his soul to Coldharbour for punishment.

Mannimarco states that he is "neither alive nor dead" when questioned on whether he is still alive. Everyone else who appears in Heart's Grief is also dead, but appears similarly to when they were alive; this may be an additional torture of Molag Bal's--the souls are already in his thrall, but he's given them a physical form so that he can torment them further.

If you set Mannimarco free in Heart's Grief, he is presumably still dead and still trapped in Coldharbour--free from Molag Bal's clutches, but unable to escape. Of course, most people in Tamriel wouldn't know that anything happened to Mannimarco's soul, so for all intents and purposes, he's just dead.

---

As for Mannimarco's appearance in Oblivion, and whether he's really dead... Hannibal Traven's plan to defeat Mannimarco relies on a special black soul gem. Traven says that the gem "is meant to house [his] very own soul, to be absorbed by Mannimarco and increase his power." Traven goes on to explain that, by trapping his own soul inside it, "With this gem in your possession, you will be impervious to his attempt to enthrall you." You can, in fact, see Mannimarco attempt to cast a second spell after the Paralyze spell he uses to gloat to the player.

My theory is that Traven managed to sabotage Mannimarco's powers from inside the soul gem. Traven forced Mannimarco to absorb his soul, and somehow, with the occupant being a willing sacrifice instead of a subjugated captive, the gem not only nullifies Mannimarco's most devastating attack, but also weakens him and deprives him of his other powers.

So, I'd say, since the game and later games don't make any mention of Mannimarco returning, he's quite dead, and permanently, too. Of course, thanks to the Warp in the West, a version of Mannimarco continues to exist as the Necromancer's Moon.

--

If you want to know Wormblood's actual deal (spoilers for Solstice, obviously):

Wormblood intends to sacrifice the captive Vanus Galerion to resurrect Mannimarco. You foil his plans, but Mannimarco is able to take command of Wormblood's body instead, thus returning to life anyway.

As Wormblood seems to be voiced by Robbie Daymond, and post-resurrection Mannimarco has Wormblood's voice, this appears to be a compromise: Jim Ward, Mannimarco's original voice actor, had to retire from voice acting due to complications from COVID-19. That allows the writers to bring the character back without doing the disservice to Ward's career of replacing Mannimarco's voice acting.

You know that is funny

This might be the developer's way to explain why Mannimarco is so different in Oblivion, the real Mannimarco was killed by the Vestige, the Mannimarco in Oblivion and even Daggerfall is technically Wormblood "possessed" by Mannimarco's Spirit, it also means Mannimarco by definition is not a Lich, he is no different to the Necromancer from Fang Lair or Thaliik Wormfather.

StormBlade512

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Mannimarco did die beneath Sancre Tor, though he had a contingency. However, unfortunately for him, before he could enact it and "rise up from the grave and ascend to godhood," as he puts it, Molag Bal takes his soul to Coldharbour for punishment.

Mannimarco states that he is "neither alive nor dead" when questioned on whether he is still alive. Everyone else who appears in Heart's Grief is also dead, but appears similarly to when they were alive; this may be an additional torture of Molag Bal's--the souls are already in his thrall, but he's given them a physical form so that he can torment them further.

If you set Mannimarco free in Heart's Grief, he is presumably still dead and still trapped in Coldharbour--free from Molag Bal's clutches, but unable to escape. Of course, most people in Tamriel wouldn't know that anything happened to Mannimarco's soul, so for all intents and purposes, he's just dead.

I mean if you free Naemon you can potentially see him in the Old Life quest, so I'd say if he can escape from Coldharbour Mannimarco definitely can. I played through the Solstice quest chain on PTS and apart from NPCs assuming he's in Coldharbour, there's nothing that specifically implies that he was summoned from that place.

GloatingSwine

Have you seen what he looks like in Oblivion?

He didn't die, Molag Bal just left him wishing he could.

kurbbie_s

Alaztor91 wrote: »

I wonder how this will make sense when we already knew that Mannimarco was alive because he reappears in Oblivion.

the oblivion version is thought to be a fake and a copycat

SpaceElf

PrinceShroob wrote: »

--

If you want to know Wormblood's actual deal (spoilers for Solstice, obviously):

Wormblood intends to sacrifice the captive Vanus Galerion to resurrect Mannimarco. You foil his plans, but Mannimarco is able to take command of Wormblood's body instead, thus returning to life anyway.

As Wormblood seems to be voiced by Robbie Daymond, and post-resurrection Mannimarco has Wormblood's voice, this appears to be a compromise: Jim Ward, Mannimarco's original voice actor, had to retire from voice acting due to complications from COVID-19. That allows the writers to bring the character back without doing the disservice to Ward's career of replacing Mannimarco's voice acting.

Spoilers for reasons

Well, I thought so too at first but kidnapping Galerion to do that doesn't make sense if the plan was to use the Gift of Death. That's assuming that was the plan. I didn't know that about Jim Ward though, that sucks.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Obvious Spoilers, click at your own peril.

Well the thing is that if Wormblood's body is now Mannimarco's vessel then that means that the Mannimarco in Daggerfall and Oblivion are not the true Mannimarco, just Wormblood or even another Necromancer entirely that Mannimarco's spirit had possessed, it is possible at the end of Daggerfall his Spirit went onto achieve Godhood but the physical form of Wormblood remained and since he was "Mannimarco" for so long he probably forgot his original identity and now thinks he is Mannimarco, that is the one you encounter in Oblivion which could explain why he seems so weak and aged, also I should point out that a spirit possessing someone else's body is by definition NOT a Lich, he honestly seems similar to the Lich King from World of Warcraft who you guessed it, is by definition not a Lich either, He is a Death Knight possessed by a powerful Spirit, I guess people probably just assume Mannimarco is because he is a powerful Necromancer and they just call him that because to be honest they probably have no idea what he is.

barney2525

randconfig wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

My elf is still angry that when the Prophet said one of the original Five Companions needed to be sacrificed he wouldn't take her suggestion to grab Mannimarco who was tied up quite close to where they were. That silly decision cost the Prophet his life.

Mannimarco will be back of course.

To be fair, I think the sacrifice needed to be willing and physically be alive, so Mannimarco probably wouldn't have been able to be the sacrifice lol.

I dunno. He might have said " If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine ! "


or was that someone else?