Can we revert oakensoul/buff it, now that subclass is a thing?

Renato90085

unlikely,if you are zos,you will choose buff all 97% thing close subclass or nerf the problem(U46 ult passive and nb skill stack)

Vaqual

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

I have said it many times, but I will repeat it here again: Gear balancing has to be based on the potential of an item, not on arbitrary performances of individual players. Ease of use is a significant factor in balancing and it has to be accounted for. Rewarding bad performances is one of the greatest motivation killers for many players, both in PvP and PvE. If effort, planning and skill become optional, challenging content turns into conditionally challenging content.

Oakensoul is acceptable if it allows the player to bridge some shortcomings. If you lack skill it can help by simplifying the playstyle. If you can't be bothered to make an appropriate build it offers versatility. If you can't learn the encounter to the point of perfect execution of mechanics it can make fights more forgiving. But it can not and should not do so much that a player needs to bring nothing.

I can't think of a single thing that would make the game less attractive than being completely outperformed by a player who does nothing besides holding down his left mouse button. The original Oakensoul performed far above any healthy level. The "average player" has to play by the same rules as everyone else, otherwise there is no point in ESO being a multiplayer game. The balance being in shambles is no reason to inject more power into this item.

SkaiFaith

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

I have said it many times, but I will repeat it here again: Gear balancing has to be based on the potential of an item, not on arbitrary performances of individual players. Ease of use is a significant factor in balancing and it has to be accounted for. Rewarding bad performances is one of the greatest motivation killers for many players, both in PvP and PvE. If effort, planning and skill become optional, challenging content turns into conditionally challenging content.

Oakensoul is acceptable if it allows the player to bridge some shortcomings. If you lack skill it can help by simplifying the playstyle. If you can't be bothered to make an appropriate build it offers versatility. If you can't learn the encounter to the point of perfect execution of mechanics it can make fights more forgiving. But it can not and should not do so much that a player needs to bring nothing.

I can't think of a single thing that would make the game less attractive than being completely outperformed by a player who does nothing besides holding down his left mouse button. The original Oakensoul performed far above any healthy level. The "average player" has to play by the same rules as everyone else, otherwise there is no point in ESO being a multiplayer game. The balance being in shambles is no reason to inject more power into this item.

And you are really saying all this in response to a comment which express the desire to be able to achieve again 70K DPS when there are a lot of other builds, non-oakensoul, that reach 130K... Ok.

Vaqual

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

I have said it many times, but I will repeat it here again: Gear balancing has to be based on the potential of an item, not on arbitrary performances of individual players. Ease of use is a significant factor in balancing and it has to be accounted for. Rewarding bad performances is one of the greatest motivation killers for many players, both in PvP and PvE. If effort, planning and skill become optional, challenging content turns into conditionally challenging content.

Oakensoul is acceptable if it allows the player to bridge some shortcomings. If you lack skill it can help by simplifying the playstyle. If you can't be bothered to make an appropriate build it offers versatility. If you can't learn the encounter to the point of perfect execution of mechanics it can make fights more forgiving. But it can not and should not do so much that a player needs to bring nothing.

I can't think of a single thing that would make the game less attractive than being completely outperformed by a player who does nothing besides holding down his left mouse button. The original Oakensoul performed far above any healthy level. The "average player" has to play by the same rules as everyone else, otherwise there is no point in ESO being a multiplayer game. The balance being in shambles is no reason to inject more power into this item.

And you are really saying all this in response to a comment which express the desire to be able to achieve again 70K DPS when there are a lot of other builds, non-oakensoul, that reach 130K... Ok.

I say it as my general contribution to this thread, which has been motivated by your post, because it is a good example for the unreflected perspective on balancing many Oakensoul advocates on this forum have displayed. While some players view difficulty as an obstacle, it is an important motivator for others. There is no reason to pretend that it wouldn't feel invalidating, if content can be beat by holding down one single button. For many, a challenge is no longer worth conquering, if there is a fully effortless way of doing it. Oakensoul can do enough in its current state and that should be clear. There have to be boundaries, to preserve the interests of all different player groups. ESO has not been advertised as click and point adventure.

Awbuz

Yes, only if they also revert corrosive and jabs

Lumenn

Awbuz wrote: »

Yes, only if they also revert corrosive and jabs

I'm actually all for it, include streak, shields, wings, and lightning HA along with every horrible thing done to templars because they were too...."loaded." Too many nerfs over the years....

Islyn

Orbital78 wrote: »

Heronisan wrote: »

Release oakensoul was beyond broken. Pure classes are getting nerfed in the name of subclassing, buffing oakensoul to compete with subclassing is a very greedy take, so is reverting the destro staff nerf. Destro Staff was wildy OP compared to all other heavy attack builds, this one build/playstyle should not throne over everything else as hard as it does.

Oakensoul still deals more then enough damage to complete all content, this mythic should have some drawbacks not just slap it on and forget about everything else. Its not just the damage but the survivability too.

Your idea of all content and mine differ. All solo content, yes.

That whole comment was just *what?*

NxJoeyD

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, no.

Leading skill trees are:
NB: Assasination
Templar: Aedric Spear
Templar: Dawns Wrath

Underneath that, in 4th, I’d say Warden for the stronger self healing, thn Sorcs storm calling, and that’s really only to slot Mages Wrath or Lightning Form; but the Sorc line is really only picked up if a player isn’t really able to work in Assasin, otherwise, that’s really the stronger line to slot.

The majority of the meta builds in PvP aren’t running Oakensoul anymore because it’s too restrictive and under performing.

The current metas that are enabling little to no skill PvP play are high crit bursts. While Oak does give a buff to crit it’s not all encompassing and subclassing in Assasin and/or Aedric is far better as you get the crit passives and a suite of high burst abilities.

People keep forgetting that subclassing has opened the door to combinations of mechanics that were never, originally, intended to be combined in the game. This reduces counter play. Previously players had to lean on sets for a series of buffs or additional damage but not with subclassing. This as enabled significant power creep within the metas.

We read the forums and it’s the same old tired responses, the only two counter play elements anyone wants to cite are “block” and “immobility pots” .. problem is, you can’t lean on the same mechanics over and over as the source of counter play for everything; it’s unrealistic.

Balance is very much broken and Oakensoul is nowhere near the top. Making some changes would see Oak builds at least be competitive.

Again, I don’t think damage is what Oak needs, it brings enough damage to the table. Oak needs some form of defensive buff only when Battle Spirit is active. Since there isn’t one; a minor buff could be made which increases Crit Resistence by 690. This would be a 10% opponent modifier reduction. Given the current state of Crit this would be balanced and provide a more direct PvP effect without being broken.

Solariken

NxJoeyD wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, no.

Leading skill trees are:
NB: Assasination
Templar: Aedric Spear
Templar: Dawns Wrath

Underneath that, in 4th, I’d say Warden for the stronger self healing, thn Sorcs storm calling, and that’s really only to slot Mages Wrath or Lightning Form; but the Sorc line is really only picked up if a player isn’t really able to work in Assasin, otherwise, that’s really the stronger line to slot.

The majority of the meta builds in PvP aren’t running Oakensoul anymore because it’s too restrictive and under performing.

The current metas that are enabling little to no skill PvP play are high crit bursts. While Oak does give a buff to crit it’s not all encompassing and subclassing in Assasin and/or Aedric is far better as you get the crit passives and a suite of high burst abilities.

People keep forgetting that subclassing has opened the door to combinations of mechanics that were never, originally, intended to be combined in the game. This reduces counter play. Previously players had to lean on sets for a series of buffs or additional damage but not with subclassing. This as enabled significant power creep within the metas.

We read the forums and it’s the same old tired responses, the only two counter play elements anyone wants to cite are “block” and “immobility pots” .. problem is, you can’t lean on the same mechanics over and over as the source of counter play for everything; it’s unrealistic.

Balance is very much broken and Oakensoul is nowhere near the top. Making some changes would see Oak builds at least be competitive.

Again, I don’t think damage is what Oak needs, it brings enough damage to the table. Oak needs some form of defensive buff only when Battle Spirit is active. Since there isn’t one; a minor buff could be made which increases Crit Resistence by 690. This would be a 10% opponent modifier reduction. Given the current state of Crit this would be balanced and provide a more direct PvP effect without being broken.

Adding crit resist is interesting but I think it makes more sense to add Minor Resolve since that buff is widely available (Vigor) and fits the theme Oak theme of buff stacking.

Oak does need a damage buff though, with an Empower change/nerf. It really bugs me that they pigeon-holed this very cool mythic into a lame lightning heavy attack build. It should be equally useful/viable for those of use who want to feel cool with just one weapon because weapon swapping looks ridiculous.

SkaiFaith

Solariken wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, no.

Leading skill trees are:
NB: Assasination
Templar: Aedric Spear
Templar: Dawns Wrath

Underneath that, in 4th, I’d say Warden for the stronger self healing, thn Sorcs storm calling, and that’s really only to slot Mages Wrath or Lightning Form; but the Sorc line is really only picked up if a player isn’t really able to work in Assasin, otherwise, that’s really the stronger line to slot.

The majority of the meta builds in PvP aren’t running Oakensoul anymore because it’s too restrictive and under performing.

The current metas that are enabling little to no skill PvP play are high crit bursts. While Oak does give a buff to crit it’s not all encompassing and subclassing in Assasin and/or Aedric is far better as you get the crit passives and a suite of high burst abilities.

People keep forgetting that subclassing has opened the door to combinations of mechanics that were never, originally, intended to be combined in the game. This reduces counter play. Previously players had to lean on sets for a series of buffs or additional damage but not with subclassing. This as enabled significant power creep within the metas.

We read the forums and it’s the same old tired responses, the only two counter play elements anyone wants to cite are “block” and “immobility pots” .. problem is, you can’t lean on the same mechanics over and over as the source of counter play for everything; it’s unrealistic.

Balance is very much broken and Oakensoul is nowhere near the top. Making some changes would see Oak builds at least be competitive.

Again, I don’t think damage is what Oak needs, it brings enough damage to the table. Oak needs some form of defensive buff only when Battle Spirit is active. Since there isn’t one; a minor buff could be made which increases Crit Resistence by 690. This would be a 10% opponent modifier reduction. Given the current state of Crit this would be balanced and provide a more direct PvP effect without being broken.

Adding crit resist is interesting but I think it makes more sense to add Minor Resolve since that buff is widely available (Vigor) and fits the theme Oak theme of buff stacking.

Oak does need a damage buff though, with an Empower change/nerf. It really bugs me that they pigeon-holed this very cool mythic into a lame lightning heavy attack build. It should be equally useful/viable for those of use who want to feel cool with just one weapon because weapon swapping looks ridiculous.

Minor Resolve + Major Courage (instead of Minor) could do, but I wouldn't nerf empower, exactly to not hurt those people to whom the only possibility IS to keep one button pressed...

By the way when I said to add Major Berserk and Major Courage before I meant to substitute their Minor counterpart, not to add on top of those.

NxJoeyD

Solariken wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I could be wrong but Oakensoul builds now see pure Sorcerer or Sorc + Assassination being way ahead of others, right?
I've seen parses of around 110K on those builds but I don't think that's realistically what the average Oakensoul player achieves, and that's where people's opinion differ.

Giving Major Berserk and Major Courage to an already 110K parse would take it really high. However, my build reaches 55-60K on Trial dummy, which I think is more like the average Oakensoul player, not the min/maxer.
On builds such as mine, adding Major Berserk and Major Courage would make a lovely difference without making us OP, really.

The ideal solution I guess would be "balancing" - how? It's beyond my knowledge.

Edit: at Oakensoul's launch my build used to hit 70-75K so over time it definitely took a hit.

Speaking from a PvP perspective, no.

Leading skill trees are:
NB: Assasination
Templar: Aedric Spear
Templar: Dawns Wrath

Underneath that, in 4th, I’d say Warden for the stronger self healing, thn Sorcs storm calling, and that’s really only to slot Mages Wrath or Lightning Form; but the Sorc line is really only picked up if a player isn’t really able to work in Assasin, otherwise, that’s really the stronger line to slot.

The majority of the meta builds in PvP aren’t running Oakensoul anymore because it’s too restrictive and under performing.

The current metas that are enabling little to no skill PvP play are high crit bursts. While Oak does give a buff to crit it’s not all encompassing and subclassing in Assasin and/or Aedric is far better as you get the crit passives and a suite of high burst abilities.

People keep forgetting that subclassing has opened the door to combinations of mechanics that were never, originally, intended to be combined in the game. This reduces counter play. Previously players had to lean on sets for a series of buffs or additional damage but not with subclassing. This as enabled significant power creep within the metas.

We read the forums and it’s the same old tired responses, the only two counter play elements anyone wants to cite are “block” and “immobility pots” .. problem is, you can’t lean on the same mechanics over and over as the source of counter play for everything; it’s unrealistic.

Balance is very much broken and Oakensoul is nowhere near the top. Making some changes would see Oak builds at least be competitive.

Again, I don’t think damage is what Oak needs, it brings enough damage to the table. Oak needs some form of defensive buff only when Battle Spirit is active. Since there isn’t one; a minor buff could be made which increases Crit Resistence by 690. This would be a 10% opponent modifier reduction. Given the current state of Crit this would be balanced and provide a more direct PvP effect without being broken.

Adding crit resist is interesting but I think it makes more sense to add Minor Resolve since that buff is widely available (Vigor) and fits the theme Oak theme of buff stacking.

Oak does need a damage buff though, with an Empower change/nerf. It really bugs me that they pigeon-holed this very cool mythic into a lame lightning heavy attack build. It should be equally useful/viable for those of use who want to feel cool with just one weapon because weapon swapping looks ridiculous.

I agree that Minor Resolve fits the “theme” of Oakensoul but the reason I say Crit Resist is based on how ESO performs damage mathematical computations and what is the proper “bring to the table” so to speak.

We have access to minor resolve through Scribing and a lot of people already use that so I think Minor Resolve here is a bit redundant; especially when we consider how Scribing isn’t fully fluid, meaning that just because a player runs a scribed ability with minor resolve now, it doesn’t mean they can scribe something else that’s relevant. Each skill has script limitations and with the wide array of existing buffs you’re basically penalizing Oakensoul users to scribe and as I’m sure we’ve all noticed, scribing in some fashion is common in PvP and a bit of a staple; plus, players have committed considerable time to unlock it all so we don’t want to ruin that whole aspect of gameplay.

As for the Crit Resistance, this is why it makes a difference. Just like standard resistance players “can” increase their Crit damage modifier over the 125% in game cap. High crit builds will do this to try and offset Crit resistance. Now, pre subclassing this used to be harder to do but it’s much easier now.

A player having 690 Crit Resistance is going to have a more direct impact on the type of imbalanced incoming damage than just having Minor Resolve … why? Because Crit Resistance only and directly affects the Crit modifier; reducing the attackers Crit damage modifier and only the value of their outgoing Crit damage. The attacker can still Crit as frequently and their normal damage output would be untouched, but the amount of damage they do per crit would come down. In my example it’s 10%; and that’s because my observations and others in BG threads are seeing crit damage pops that clearly show more players are at the crit ceiling. Running 7 pieces of Impen aren’t enough anymore.

The game gives a base 19% crit resistance but we’re seeing MORE players take their crit damage modifier upwards of 150% AND HIGHER. Now remember, the game caps at 125% so a player running 150% crit damage modifier has a 25% buffer to eat up an openents crit resistance and still be at the cap!

Now two bar players can slot passive abilities to provide additional resistance OR slot more strong self heals .. but one bar players can’t do this and still be any sort of effective in PvP.

Minor resolve affects all incoming damage which could be seen by many as being “too much”. Even though MR is accessible through scribing I’m sure some people would feel that having it all in one source would be overkill. Even though in PvP minor resolve would be affected by diminishing returns; people are still going to feel a certain way about it, plus, it wouldn’t directly affect the crit problem.

Lastly, Oakensouls shortfall on durability only really comes into play with Crits. The game (IMO) really falls short when it comes to flexibility in dealing with crits and I also see that subclassing has made that worse. It can be easy to buff your crit multiplier but it’s FAR harder to get sources of crit resistance. Now you apply that to a player with only one bar and you’re tying one hand around their back in a prize fight.

taugrim

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

NxJoeyD

taugrim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

This is true; and it contributes to the power Oak brings to the table but let’s not forget that some of the biggest buffs in the game are available via sets or simply by slotting an ability; that’s not counting major buffs that are provided by abilities that are routinely spammable.

If the majority of buffs in PvP relied on GCD anymore I’d agree but the reality is they don’t and that’s thanks to subclassing and to some extent, scribing. Nearly nobody in PvP is procing an ability that’s subject to GCD simply for the buff; they’re getting the buffs in with their normal rotations anyway to maintain a consistent uptime.

Oak doesn’t need a power buff, I agree, but it doesn’t need a flexibility buff, and IMO, by way of crit resistance because that’s one aspect single bar players are going to struggle to hit. You’re leaving Oak users wide open to constant crit attacks which are literally everywhere and the meta in PvP.

Power is one thing but power with little crit defense is another.

Solariken

taugrim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

If that were true, you'd see people using it. It's incredibly rare that I encounter Oak wearers. I'm one of the very few on PCNA, and I only do it to live my RP fantasy, knowing full well it puts me at a disadvantage.

It's convenient for GCD/buff management, but you lose 6 skill slots and the utility of a second weapon. That's nowhere near an even trade considering most of the buffs will be on a 2-bar build already, on which you can slot a mythic that actually does provide a net advantage.

NxJoeyD

Solariken wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

If that were true, you'd see people using it. It's incredibly rare that I encounter Oak wearers. I'm one of the very few on PCNA, and I only do it to live my RP fantasy, knowing full well it puts me at a disadvantage.

It's convenient for GCD/buff management, but you lose 6 skill slots and the utility of a second weapon. That's nowhere near an even trade considering most of the buffs will be on a 2-bar build already, on which you can slot a mythic that actually does provide a net advantage.

Yeah I honestly don’t think people understand the opportunity cost one loses with Oakensoul.

Before subclassing it was a descent trade off because classes had higher barriers to accessing certain buffs & uptimes so Oakensoul balanced out by making the trade off for buff vs ability slots more viable.

But now, the 4 biggest and most primary buffs in PvP are available through only TWO ability slots, one of which is a passive constant on simply by being slotted; the other is a spammable so they’re also always up.

If one thinks how a player could trade off having to rock 5 pieces of gear to get two buffs that they don’t have to manage now out of one ability slot that’s huge.

With subclassing that trade off balance is gone; your full 2 bar builds have a very big advantage over the Oakensoul builds because they have all the flexibility to rock the most relevant buffs with little to no cost plus the added flexibility of a 2nd bar.

This is why you’ve seen Oak builds dry up. They were over powered at launch but that was nerfed and even before subclassing we saw Oakensoul builds drop off as metas changed. Now, after subclassing even more have dropped off; only those looking for a real build challenge even touch Oakensoul anymore and as far as PvP goes it’s not competitive.

YandereGirlfriend

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

If that were true, you'd see people using it. It's incredibly rare that I encounter Oak wearers. I'm one of the very few on PCNA, and I only do it to live my RP fantasy, knowing full well it puts me at a disadvantage.

It's convenient for GCD/buff management, but you lose 6 skill slots and the utility of a second weapon. That's nowhere near an even trade considering most of the buffs will be on a 2-bar build already, on which you can slot a mythic that actually does provide a net advantage.

Yeah I honestly don’t think people understand the opportunity cost one loses with Oakensoul.

Before subclassing it was a descent trade off because classes had higher barriers to accessing certain buffs & uptimes so Oakensoul balanced out by making the trade off for buff vs ability slots more viable.

But now, the 4 biggest and most primary buffs in PvP are available through only TWO ability slots, one of which is a passive constant on simply by being slotted; the other is a spammable so they’re also always up.

If one thinks how a player could trade off having to rock 5 pieces of gear to get two buffs that they don’t have to manage now out of one ability slot that’s huge.

With subclassing that trade off balance is gone; your full 2 bar builds have a very big advantage over the Oakensoul builds because they have all the flexibility to rock the most relevant buffs with little to no cost plus the added flexibility of a 2nd bar.

This is why you’ve seen Oak builds dry up. They were over powered at launch but that was nerfed and even before subclassing we saw Oakensoul builds drop off as metas changed. Now, after subclassing even more have dropped off; only those looking for a real build challenge even touch Oakensoul anymore and as far as PvP goes it’s not competitive.

The issue is more the overall lack of Crit Res in the game than an issue with Oakensoul.

You can stack 3 damage lines on Oakensoul just fine and be rocking the same Crit Dam modifier as anyone else who is surfing the meta.

However, if they properly added Crit Res to Alchemy and gave us a Crit Res Mundus, Major Enervation, etc. it would go a huge way toward balancing the scales between Crit Res and Dam in the subclassing era. And those options would be freely usable for Oakensoulers and everyone else.

NxJoeyD

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I love Oakensoul for the roleplay... Because going into battle with 1 weapon is much more realistic than spazz-swapping 2 weapons every few seconds.

The enormous combat disadvantage of using Oakensoul is backwards. It needs to grant a significant power opportunity to make it competitive and offset the losses.

There are lots of ways to go about it. One idea:

Nerf Empower from 70% to 20%, then add Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Minor Resolve.

Huh?! At that point you have basically every named buff in the entire game. That is worth way more than a back-bar slot.

What even is the "problem" that is being solved here? Oakensoul players can already do basically anything.

It doesn't sound like you've actually used Oakensoul.

Yes you lose back bar slots, but you also lose a ton of raw power. If you go Bow or Lightning Staff for example, you completely lose the ability to turtle on an Ice or SnB back bar, meaning you take a lot more damage overall. And vice versa, if you go Ice or SnB, you lose a lot of damage.

As it currently exists, Oak just gives you a handful of buffs that most 2-bar builds already have. Meaning you are making a big sacrifice without much reward at all.

You lose a ton of raw power?
Just gives you a hand of buffs?
You are making a big sacrifice?

I'd argue the opposite. Instead of having to use valuable global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you can use 100% of your global cooldowns for damage or for healing.

And not only do you not have to use global cooldowns to re-apply buffs, you don't have to worry about tracking buff timers at all. You're never at risk of having a key buff drop at a critical moment, because your have 100% uptime on those major and minor buffs.

Oakensoul is tremendously convenient and it dramatically streamlines gameplay. I've never seen an item like Oakensoul across all the MMORPGs I've ever played. It literally takes away so much of the work (and tedium) of playing a build.

There's no need to buff it.

If that were true, you'd see people using it. It's incredibly rare that I encounter Oak wearers. I'm one of the very few on PCNA, and I only do it to live my RP fantasy, knowing full well it puts me at a disadvantage.

It's convenient for GCD/buff management, but you lose 6 skill slots and the utility of a second weapon. That's nowhere near an even trade considering most of the buffs will be on a 2-bar build already, on which you can slot a mythic that actually does provide a net advantage.

Yeah I honestly don’t think people understand the opportunity cost one loses with Oakensoul.

Before subclassing it was a descent trade off because classes had higher barriers to accessing certain buffs & uptimes so Oakensoul balanced out by making the trade off for buff vs ability slots more viable.

But now, the 4 biggest and most primary buffs in PvP are available through only TWO ability slots, one of which is a passive constant on simply by being slotted; the other is a spammable so they’re also always up.

If one thinks how a player could trade off having to rock 5 pieces of gear to get two buffs that they don’t have to manage now out of one ability slot that’s huge.

With subclassing that trade off balance is gone; your full 2 bar builds have a very big advantage over the Oakensoul builds because they have all the flexibility to rock the most relevant buffs with little to no cost plus the added flexibility of a 2nd bar.

This is why you’ve seen Oak builds dry up. They were over powered at launch but that was nerfed and even before subclassing we saw Oakensoul builds drop off as metas changed. Now, after subclassing even more have dropped off; only those looking for a real build challenge even touch Oakensoul anymore and as far as PvP goes it’s not competitive.

The issue is more the overall lack of Crit Res in the game than an issue with Oakensoul.

You can stack 3 damage lines on Oakensoul just fine and be rocking the same Crit Dam modifier as anyone else who is surfing the meta.

However, if they properly added Crit Res to Alchemy and gave us a Crit Res Mundus, Major Enervation, etc. it would go a huge way toward balancing the scales between Crit Res and Dam in the subclassing era. And those options would be freely usable for Oakensoulers and everyone else.

Agreed; the game itself doesn’t have enough sources of C. Resist in general but subclassing has put overall Oakensoul behind because even though Oakensoul builds have access to all the same 3 skill likes as everyone else; what they can’t do is take advantage of how many abilities are slotted from those skill lines.

Oakensoul builds don’t have access to the same scope of Crit damage modifiers as two bars simply because the some of those Crit passives are based upon the number of skill abilities slotted. Others provide extra Crit whenever a player Crits, further rewarding already exciting Crit frequency.

It’s not as though an Oakensoul build can simply grab a skill line and get free passive Crit modifiers; they have to start slotting and using multiple abilities and one bar builds are super limited here. Perhaps they are if they’re chasing the meta, then maybe, but should we be rewarding only meta chasers while leaving everyone else out in the proverbial cold? I say no.

Plus, two bar access now to the additional ability of more set flexibility because having the two full bars to slot means those builds don’t have to lean on full 5 piece sets now, like when they did before when they didn’t have access to the whole array of abilities and passives.