Why the pet system is unattractive

ZhuJiuyin

I have to say that the pet system, whether it is a sorc or a warden, is boring and even lacks creativity.

I think the problem lies in several points:
1. Lack of interaction: Whether it is a sorc or a warden, the functions of the pet only focus on active and passive attacks, and in rare cases, active healing abilities will be used.
Bear: Both active and passive abilities deal damage, have executions, and occasionally stun.
Storm Atronach: Passively deals damage and has synergistic abilities that the caster cannot use on their own
Clannfear: Passive damage, active ability is healing for self and owner
Familiar: Both active and passive abilities deal damage, and active abilities have a rarely-noticed Stun.
Twilight Tormentor: Both active and passive abilities deal damage, and the active ability has a reverse execution that is rarely used.
Twilight Matriarch: Passive damage, active ability is to heal multiple targets. I personally think this is the most successful pet design.

It can be found that pets lack other functions, and many of their abilities cannot interact with other people or even the players themselves.
This results in the pet occupying both columns becoming very boring and unattractive.

If Clannfear had an active ability that cast Ward on 3 targets around itself, or one of the Bear morphs had an active ability that knocked back targets while dealing damage, or Twilight Tormentor had an active ability that gave targets a debuff while dealing bonus damage, I think it would make pets more attractive because they wouldn't just be passive sources of damage. It will also attract players to pay more attention to the active ability of pets, and even have good interactions with the team. For example, Twilight Matriarch is widely used in many Dungeon Trifecta.

2. The pet system lacks tolerance
Pets need to occupy two slots, and for a sorc, the pet build requires 6 slots, 4 for permanent pets, 1 for Daedric Prey, and 1 for Storm Atronach. Otherwise, there will be a serious loss of DPS. However, this not only seriously excludes the possibility of using other skills, but also makes the build monotonous. In addition, as mentioned earlier, pets lack interactivity, making the pet system even more boring.

3. Set pet
In addition to class pets, set pets are mostly focused on treatment and damage, lacking more variety. If Chokethorn's 2 set bonus was: "When you deal direct damage, summon a strangler sapling for 10 seconds that deals damage every 2 seconds and attempts to pull the nearest hostile target to you."
Alternatively, Coldharbour's Favorite will call out a pet and continuously grant buffs to nearby friendly players, or Shadowrend will try to cause aggro to the target after being summoned. This will also be more interesting than the current state, because players will no longer just summon pets to cause damage after being hurt, but pets will try to cause aggro after being summoned, providing player safety, and may even shine in some mechanisms and portals.

4. Blocking vision
In some cases, pets will block the player's field of vision, resulting in a less than pleasant experience. Especially for Twilight and Maw of the Inferna, it would be great if we could find a solution that doesn't cancel the summon and doesn't block vision.

While I have nothing against playing a pet manager, the pet system is in dire need of improvement. Class pets currently lack the value of occupying 2 bars, and set pets are mostly mediocre and lack creativity. Most pets have no interaction with the player or the group at all. This is why many people do not like to use pets.

CameraBeardThePirate

Don't forget the fact that they can't proc sets (including temporary pets like Blastbones and Ghost)

katorga

Matriarch is too big. It needs to be somewhere between the size of a non-combat pet and where it is now.

Warden bear models don't look real, especially when it changes direction.

iirc pets, including blast bones don't count toward your damage in BGs.

Active, targetable pets should inherit the stats, mundus, and gear of the owner. Back in the day, Everquest allowed you to arm and equip your pets, so much so that the Magician class had a line of skills to created summoned armor and weapons for pets (and other pet classes like Necromancer could request a Mage to summon them some).

Markytous

Double-barring skills is not fun and does not make sense. It needs to go.

Ezhh

If they insist on pets taking two slots, it would be nice if those two slots were two different abilities for the pet that were actually worth using. As it is, for the most part pets just give you a bunch of slots on your bar that you barely ever have reason to activate.

My personal dislike for pets has always comes from the size/animation of the tormentor/twilight though. If I watch it for any length of time it makes me feel queasy, and it constantly blocks vision (itself a problem) which makes it hard not to end up watching it. (Thankfully I learned to use a command to hide the pet, but that has a bunch of downsides to it as well, and can't be done by console users.)

Then it's just impossible to compete with current needs for cleave while having so many slots taken up by pets, only one of which has a (quite weak) AoE attack and with there not being a good AoE spammable option to use alongside the pets.

necro_the_crafter

There is 2 classic scenarios of gameplay with pets:
1. Pet relies on summoner.
2. Summoner relies on pet.

In the first example, pet is one who deals and takes all of the damage, with the caster being a support for the pet. This scenario require micromanaging of pets, which is usually a high apm gameplay that current ESO simply doesnt have any tools or systems to properly implement.

In the second example, summoner is the one who deals and takes damage, with summoned pet being a support. In this scenario devs can automate pets behaviour, to do its utility realted thing, but then, its just an ability disguised as pet. An example - Intensive mender, summon arcanist/archer, blue betty, dark shade.

Only way i see its working, if ZoS actually reuse old overload kinda third skillbar, to micromanage your pet. Upon activating a skill slot in wich you have your pet, you sould go to pets skillbar and press buttons for him. This is the only way I can see its working, anything else is just a regualr ability diguised as pet. Take the tormenor for example, if it was a storm cloud above sorcerer's head that zaps enemy with lightning with same damage and frequency as tormentor, it would be exactly the same skill, only - it would take a single skill slot, and it couldnt be killed wich both are upgrades from current pet version.
But, if matriarch had it own skills, then it would be an interesting tool for those who seek a classic summoner expiriense of micromanaging theirs pets, squezzing out as much utility from it as they can. One skill on the pets bar would be a return to character skills bar, preferably in the ultimate slot, and the rest - a unique set of pet skills. This would also make sense, since you have to sacrifice addition skillslot, but you are getting a whole new skillbar of pet skills.

Grim_Overlord

I think to start simply giving some more variety in what the permanent pets do would be a step in the right direction that doesn't require implementing a new system. Warden's bear could leave one morph unchanged, and have the other become more tanking focused for example, still dealing passive damage, but have the activation consume the bear's energy or something for a short time, invigorating you and reducing damage taken and healing you for a short period dependent on the amount of ultimate the bear had stored up. In PvP and solo content this would make the bear nice, passive damage that can be traded strategically for survivability.

Sorcerer is a different mess though, as subclassing has highlighted more than ever. The skill lines lacking specialization aside, their pets are rather mundane for the amount of the class's damage budget they hold. I think Matriarch and Volatile are currently successful in their designs, as each gives a different utility to the pet, being healing and AOE respectively. Starting then with Tormentor, it feels awful to use. I've been playing a sorcerer since 2019 when I started and have always aimed to be a summoner primarily, and Tormentor is a skill I wish I could take off my bars without a major loss of damage. Aside from the visibility issues, it's activatable is used, at most, once a fight as otherwise it results in a damage loss if reactivated. The reverse execute is interesting, but would honestly be better as a passive attached to all morphs of Twilight. If Tormentor is meant to be the damage morph, I'd say give it an activatable that either aides in PvP scenarios, setting up a potential stun or burst of damage, or even a sticky dot of some kind. Though, to mirror Familiar's morph options, Tormentor could be changed to a different daedra than a Twilight, which might give us some more options, such as a physical or Ogrim or venomous Spider Daedra. Lastly, Clannfear having a beefy heal and doing little else is too redundant with Matriarch, which wins out in my mind as it has the versatility of healing others. Personally I'd say let the Clannfear be a massive damage morph, though I know it is currently intended to be the "tanky" pet option. Clannfears in the single player games are a menace of aggressive dps, so I'd almost like to see it's activation be damage oriented, perhaps having it go into a frenzy for a short period, dealing massive bleed damage over time or something, or even give it the stunning jump that the NPC clannfears perform.

I think the original post's ideas on making set-based pets have more variety is spot on though, especially around Coldharbour's Favorite. I wouldn't recommend changing Maw of the Infernal, as it has a relatively unique role as a monster set pet at the moment, but things like Defiler and CF could be tweaked to synergize in different ways with Daedric Prey's boost or even a new passive that boosts the efficacy of daedric summons in the Daedric Summoning line, whether sourced from there or not.

ZhuJiuyin

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Don't forget the fact that they can't proc sets (including temporary pets like Blastbones and Ghost)

You reminded me that the confusing rules of the pet system are also one of the reasons why people don’t like the pet system.
Some set effects look like pets, but in fact they will not be buffed by Daedric Prey (U45). Although this situation will no longer happen in U46, it is because Daedric Prey has been weakened rather than the rules have been improved.
Also, as you said, some sets cannot be proc'd by pets, but other sets of the same description can be proc'd by pets. The inconsistent rules make it difficult to get into the pet system, which is a hassle because players need to record each set of applicable rules, and some even need to be passed on from old players to new players, which makes the entry threshold for new players very high.

Turtle_Bot

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

There is 2 classic scenarios of gameplay with pets:
1. Pet relies on summoner.
2. Summoner relies on pet.

In the first example, pet is one who deals and takes all of the damage, with the caster being a support for the pet. This scenario require micromanaging of pets, which is usually a high apm gameplay that current ESO simply doesnt have any tools or systems to properly implement.

In the second example, summoner is the one who deals and takes damage, with summoned pet being a support. In this scenario devs can automate pets behaviour, to do its utility realted thing, but then, its just an ability disguised as pet. An example - Intensive mender, summon arcanist/archer, blue betty, dark shade.

Only way i see its working, if ZoS actually reuse old overload kinda third skillbar, to micromanage your pet. Upon activating a skill slot in wich you have your pet, you sould go to pets skillbar and press buttons for him. This is the only way I can see its working, anything else is just a regualr ability diguised as pet. Take the tormenor for example, if it was a storm cloud above sorcerer's head that zaps enemy with lightning with same damage and frequency as tormentor, it would be exactly the same skill, only - it would take a single skill slot, and it couldnt be killed wich both are upgrades from current pet version.
But, if matriarch had it own skills, then it would be an interesting tool for those who seek a classic summoner expiriense of micromanaging theirs pets, squezzing out as much utility from it as they can. One skill on the pets bar would be a return to character skills bar, preferably in the ultimate slot, and the rest - a unique set of pet skills. This would also make sense, since you have to sacrifice addition skillslot, but you are getting a whole new skillbar of pet skills.

The whole issue with pets (for me) began when ZOS removed overloads 3rd bar. Ever since then, ZOS has been forced to pile on so much of sorcs power budget into the pets to bring that playstyle back up to an appropriate level (initially by buffing pet damage itself, then switching to prey debuff to carry the pets damage), so much so, that now when ZOS tries to buff the other sorc playstyles, they are forced to overload abilities (see U41 hardened ward) to bring them up because it's not possible to drop the pets (at least from a PvE DPS perspective) because the pets are so overloaded from ZOS trying to bring them up to par ever since removing overloads 3rd bar.

Yes, with overload 3rd bar, the pets had to be on all 3 bars, so took up 6 slots instead of 4, but those extra 3 slots (no extra ultimate slot since that was taken by overload) allowed pet builds to still fit in the bare minimum utility, cleave and tertiary skills that are mandatory for things like PvP and end-game PvE. Long duration DoTs/buffs were on the overload bar, things like entropy, boundless, defensive rune, and/or surge, while the shorter duration skills were on the 2 regular bars. It was strong, but sorc was balanced around that specific aspect/interaction, so when it was removed, everything just went to [snip].

By not addressing the removal of overloads 3rd bar, ZOS has caused so many issues for sorcerer, both as a class, that was designed and balanced around having that 3rd bar to allow for the pets while not forcing anything to be too overloaded to compensate for the lack of bar space caused by running the pets.

It's also a big part of why (outside of the lack of non-ultimate spammable), vengeance sorc felt much more balanced. Nothing in the kit needed to be mega overloaded to make up for the lack of bar space that pets force, since the pets were regular DoTs that only took up 1 bar slot, and as such felt much closer to the other classes.

TL//DR:
Sorc pets were originally designed and balanced to work with overloads 3rd bar. ZOS removed overloads 3rd bar, but never properly reworked the pets, as such, has only created massive issues when trying to balance sorc ever since.

necro_the_crafter

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The whole issue with pets (for me) began when ZOS removed overloads 3rd bar. Ever since then, ZOS has been forced to pile on so much of sorcs power budget into the pets to bring that playstyle back up to an appropriate level (initially by buffing pet damage itself, then switching to prey debuff to carry the pets damage), so much so, that now when ZOS tries to buff the other sorc playstyles, they are forced to overload abilities (see U41 hardened ward) to bring them up because it's not possible to drop the pets (at least from a PvE DPS perspective) because the pets are so overloaded from ZOS trying to bring them up to par ever since removing overloads 3rd bar.

Yes, with overload 3rd bar, the pets had to be on all 3 bars, so took up 6 slots instead of 4, but those extra 3 slots (no extra ultimate slot since that was taken by overload) allowed pet builds to still fit in the bare minimum utility, cleave and tertiary skills that are mandatory for things like PvP and end-game PvE. Long duration DoTs/buffs were on the overload bar, things like entropy, boundless, defensive rune, and/or surge, while the shorter duration skills were on the 2 regular bars. It was strong, but sorc was balanced around that specific aspect/interaction, so when it was removed, everything just went to [snip].

By not addressing the removal of overloads 3rd bar, ZOS has caused so many issues for sorcerer, both as a class, that was designed and balanced around having that 3rd bar to allow for the pets while not forcing anything to be too overloaded to compensate for the lack of bar space caused by running the pets.

It's also a big part of why (outside of the lack of non-ultimate spammable), vengeance sorc felt much more balanced. Nothing in the kit needed to be mega overloaded to make up for the lack of bar space that pets force, since the pets were regular DoTs that only took up 1 bar slot, and as such felt much closer to the other classes.

TL//DR:
Sorc pets were originally designed and balanced to work with overloads 3rd bar. ZOS removed overloads 3rd bar, but never properly reworked the pets, as such, has only created massive issues when trying to balance sorc ever since.

Absolutly.
Sorcs used to either run 2 pets double barred, or run mages light+summoned armor for max magica bonuses also doublebarred, and to work with limited bar space, overload provided additional skillbar, and you had acsees to 9 free skillslosts with 6 taken either by your pets or auras. And, while they remove requirement for auras to be doublebarred, they refuse to do the same with pets for some reason.

Also, utility abilites like mines, scalding rune, defensive rune was a third bar skills for PvP sorc, they were super niche utility, but they had it moments.
I used to love setting a trap with mines and scalding rune from third bar, but the moment ZoS took it away, I never found a place for those skills again.

As for right now, I would love to micro a single powerful pet, with its own set of abilities, wich is far from current pets gameplay. Having little control over your summons, with functions of a regural single-target/AoE DoT ability, makes me question why are they even a pets that require double bar, when regural ability with same function would be a straight upgrade for the sorc?

Silaf

Removing the need to double slot the same pet on both bars will do a lot for me.
With the introduction of multiclassing having 2 slots occupied is even more penalizing.

And some styling for the summons will help to liven tings up. Maybe not simple color changes but different kinds of pets. Enabling the use of pets in the player collection like the scribed skill already do with mounts would be awesome!

CameraBeardThePirate

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Don't forget the fact that they can't proc sets (including temporary pets like Blastbones and Ghost)

You reminded me that the confusing rules of the pet system are also one of the reasons why people don’t like the pet system.
Some set effects look like pets, but in fact they will not be buffed by Daedric Prey (U45). Although this situation will no longer happen in U46, it is because Daedric Prey has been weakened rather than the rules have been improved.
Also, as you said, some sets cannot be proc'd by pets, but other sets of the same description can be proc'd by pets. The inconsistent rules make it difficult to get into the pet system, which is a hassle because players need to record each set of applicable rules, and some even need to be passed on from old players to new players, which makes the entry threshold for new players very high.

Actually, there are ZERO sets that can be procced by pets.

What you might be getting confused with is that the Twilight, Familiar, Bear, and Clannfear all have "active abilities" that you can activate while the pet is up.

The pets themselves cannot proc sets, BUT if you press these active abilities (the Twilight heal, the familiar explosion, the bear execute, etc), those effects CAN proc sets because they're considered regular abilities.

All of that to say: yes, pets are confusing lmao

Zodiarkslayer

And with all these issues highlighted we still haven't talked about the other "pets" in game.

Companions are considered pets, but do not behave like one. They cannot proc sets, you can modify their gear and abilities, but do not get targeted by pet buffs. And do not get me started on player abilities (not) targeting companions! 🤬 This is still my biggest beef with the companion system.

Necromancer summons (and NB shade, too) are considered pets, but do not behave like them. They are instant cast, but with a timer. And if I recall correctly, they can proc sets, because they are considered active abilities of the player character.

We need a consistent pet framework for all 4 types of pets, not one for each type.

CameraBeardThePirate

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Necromancer summons (and NB shade, too) are considered pets, but do not behave like them. They are instant cast, but with a timer. And if I recall correctly, they can proc sets, because they are considered active abilities of the player character.

Incorrect - Necro pets CANNOT proc sets. In fact, they're technically the only pets that fully cannot proc sets under any circumstances, as Twilight, Bear, Clannfear, and Familiar all have active ability "skills" that can be activated while the pet is summoned - these "skills" can proc sets despite the passive damage from the pets being unable to do so.

Zodiarkslayer

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Necromancer summons (and NB shade, too) are considered pets, but do not behave like them. They are instant cast, but with a timer. And if I recall correctly, they can proc sets, because they are considered active abilities of the player character.

Incorrect - Necro pets CANNOT proc sets. In fact, they're technically the only pets that fully cannot proc sets under any circumstances, as Twilight, Bear, Clannfear, and Familiar all have active ability "skills" that can be activated while the pet is summoned - these "skills" can proc sets despite the passive damage from the pets being unable to do so.

Then I guess I recalled that incorrectly. 🙄
Doesn't change my point. If anything, it underscores it.

gc0018

weak and ugly.

ZhuJiuyin

Yes, the current pet system is so confusing and unappealing, which is why many players don't like them.
Developers can't just tell everyone "Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole." and think that the problem can be solved. This is just a cop-out mentality. The current pet system is so broken it needs to be completely fixed or reworked.

mdjessup4906

I don't get why necro spawns and corpses or even netch is considered a pet alongside sorc pets and bear ult, for the purposes of game mechs. They play completely differently. If you have to keep recasting it to keep it up it's not a pet. Is nightblade shade considered a pet? Or the sul-xan soul buff thingy?

At the very least there should be 2 subcategories of "pet" that are balanced differently: permanent and temporary.