Second week, no arcanist nerf

twisttop138

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to get better and better.

sarahthes

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to get better and better.

The general consensus among the very best players (on PC NA at least) is that arcanist is far better for endgame than oakensoul was.

twisttop138

sarahthes wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to g

The general consensus among the very best players (on PC NA at least) is that arcanist is far better for endgame than oakensoul was.

I don't know enough about it to voice more then my opinion that Arcanist opened up a whole new world in the game. I'm not the only one. It's opened up stuff not just for endgame. My wife can solo WB's and do stuff she never had the confidence to do before. She might even join us in a trial. People will always complain and I can understand the complaint but I just don't agree fully.

sarahthes

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to g

The general consensus among the very best players (on PC NA at least) is that arcanist is far better for endgame than oakensoul was.

I don't know enough about it to voice more then my opinion that Arcanist opened up a whole new world in the game. I'm not the only one. It's opened up stuff not just for endgame. My wife can solo WB's and do stuff she never had the confidence to do before. She might even join us in a trial. People will always complain and I can understand the complaint but I just don't agree fully.

That extra confidence goes a really long way. Getting into trials and clearing them a couple times during a typical 2 hour raiding block instead of beating heads against the wall is massive, and there's enough of a skill difference between arc and oakensorc for it to be more palatable to endgamers.

Here's an example very sweaty endgame roster for the raid I'm doing tonight. The parse spots are where people who are newer to the sweaty content get put, and you can see there's a place for arcanist there.

Renato90085

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

Agree，my group have 18 member(total 29 people)start endgame from arc in this 8month,now they can do tank/healer ec mk Alk zen sup dd ,when they start feel arc very boring,they will try other class and build,and in RGHM from play arc Dps be a kite healer is feel like play a new game...

allochthons

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

twisttop138

sarahthes wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to g

The general consensus among the very best players (on PC NA at least) is that arcanist is far better for endgame than oakensoul was.

I don't know enough about it to voice more then my opinion that Arcanist opened up a whole new world in the game. I'm not the only one. It's opened up stuff not just for endgame. My wife can solo WB's and do stuff she never had the confidence to do before. She might even join us in a trial. People will always complain and I can understand the complaint but I just don't agree fully.

That extra confidence goes a really long way. Getting into trials and clearing them a couple times during a typical 2 hour raiding block instead of beating heads against the wall is massive, and there's enough of a skill difference between arc and oakensorc for it to be more palatable to endgamers.

Here's an example very sweaty endgame roster for the raid I'm doing tonight. The parse spots are where people who are newer to the sweaty content get put, and you can see there's a place for arcanist there.

What you showed there is almost identical to rosters in my vet trials guild for the guys ranked in at harder content like hm stuff. That's the goal man. I just need some more reps, clears and a few pieces of gear. I guess I can see people saying it's easy or boring but not everyone is on that level. I'll keep using it happily while I learn the ins and outs. You mentioned stuff like tracking off balance etc.

gc0018

I won't be surprised if ZOS already prepare a massive nerf storm on hand. I think the only thing matter is when they plan to let it out.
On the side of ZOS, release the storm at an earlier point may lead to massive complaint and tons of rework, yet release the nerf storm at the edge of U46 online will relief the complaints because of the excitement of new content.
Currently, the ZOS is more focusing on get the U46 done (you can tell by playing the BUG test servers. )

Prionyx

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

With overload abuse, without it other ST parses are at 170-172k, which is LESS THAN FULL AOE ARCANIST in ST... But even if this 180k would be real it wouldn't change anything because AoE is super important, to balance it out arcanist should deal 140-150k ST, not 175k. And your point about "don't like? don't use" is just irrelevant, you can't choose what you play in endgame content, it's just about how effective it is and if you don't play it you simply don't play

Prionyx

Maggusemm wrote: »

For arcanist you have also to add that it needs to struggle a lot with resources and if you use parsefood you should take also into account that in hard content you do not want to run around with 19k health, so you need somehow to compensate it.

Do not look at the dummy parses with setups which cannot be used in real content.

Not in the next patch since depths now grants more damage compared to coral riptide. The only skillful thing arcanist had is gone

Prionyx

twisttop138 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

I doubet they will give some big nerfs to Arcs as it is a dlc class which related to income. In contrast I would believe they will continue nerf Nb, warden or even sorcerers with.
That is typical zenimax combat adjust style which happened in past years sadly.

It's also an excellent bridge to endgame and I've seen quite a few people start on arc and move on to other classes.

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

Sounds like a whiney post, don't like beam? don't use it.
Alduin and Charles released non beam parses getting 180k.
Stop crying beam is broken, if you don't like it just use an alternative build.

Those alternative builds will only work in some content. With azureblight DoA I just don't think you can escape beam.

I very much agree. I'm a returning player, after a several year break. I only lightly touched group stuff before. (I came to the game to get away from raiding in a different game) I tried arcanist and really liked it. It is forgiving. It didn't take me a long time to get the rotation down or get gear that works good. It really let me jump in. I found a great guild. I've now done every trial on vet. A couple hm's. Even a couple dungeon trifectas. Seeing other people in the guild do really good drives me to get better. I dusted off the old NB, plar and even have been healing and learning to tank on my warden and DK. People can be salty all day man, but I'm having a blast in endgame and am looking to get better and better.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Prionyx

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

ApoAlaia

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

Prionyx

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

sarahthes

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

BananaBender

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

sarahthes

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

allochthons

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Well, it depends on where you draw the 'end-game' line. Is Rockgrove hardmode end game? Is DSR hardmode end game? Fang Lair trifecta? That's where I am. And it will hurt.

Maybe only Planesbreaker, Swashbuckler Supreme, Mindmender, and Arcane Stabilizer considered end-game? Admitedly, I am not to this level yet. But I'm inching closer.

BananaBender

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop the two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something.
Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason that made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's only roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

BananaBender

As a reference, the highest arc parse on live is around 130k while the pure single target spec is 150k. That's a 20k difference and STILL arcanist is the most popular and arguably the best class in real content. Only at the very highest level do other classes even stand a chance. On PTS the difference is 175k on beam and 180k on pure single target.

On top of this they removed Azureblight, which just completely removes other classes from the equation when it comes to actual content.

Malmer

Well beam got nerfed and buffed
The nerf with cost increase and cap are fine to me.

I also would agree that we dont need the 8%dmg increase there could put that away again.

But the main iaaue for thoose op beams are the cro line it increases the beam to much and i think the gap between other combos is defently to high.

sarahthes

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop he two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something. Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason which made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

I'm not really defending it. I just think it needs to be handled with care because of the new content design, as well as more recent older content design. Basically arc needs to be usable and viable. The current extreme endgame balance of having a couple arcs and then stacking plars or cros or nbs or dks feels pretty good, with lower tiers of endgame having more arcs and other parse classes.

sans-culottes

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the developers to prioritize accessible, sustainable gameplay across all classes and skill lines rather than locking it behind Arcanists, their skills, and/or a specific mythic or two? That these ease-of-use mechanics are exclusive to a single class—or that they’re now being distributed piecemeal through subclassing—suggests the devs recognize structural problems but don’t know how to resolve them without breaking what’s already in place.

sarahthes

sans-culottes wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the developers to prioritize accessible, sustainable gameplay across all classes and skill lines rather than locking it behind Arcanists, their skills, and/or a specific mythic or two? That these ease-of-use mechanics are exclusive to a single class—or that they’re now being distributed piecemeal through subclassing—suggests the devs recognize structural problems but don’t know how to resolve them without breaking what’s already in place.

The hardest to play classes should have the highest reward but each class potential should be close.

Hard to do with subclassing since people can just stack together the highest reward skill lines.

allochthons

sans-culottes wrote: »

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the developers to prioritize accessible, sustainable gameplay across all classes and skill lines rather than locking it behind Arcanists, their skills, and/or a specific mythic or two?

Sure. But until then, nerfing oakensoul and arcs hits those of us with poor mobility (or poor APM for whatever reason) particularly hard.

To be fair, I totally understand why people who have worked hard, and for years, for sky high damage are annoyed by 'easy mode.' Really, I get that.
But I have also worked hard, for many years, for my 100K+ (on live, I don't have PTS) damage. I just also have bad hands.

I know the mechs. I'm not the top DPS ever, but nor am I near the bottom. My trial leads know I know the game, the mechs, the gear interactions, when to concentrate on the boss and when to stop all damage. If the lead can't call the mechs for whatever reason, they know I can. I know how to make things easier for my supports. I always volunteer for the kites, or portal mechs, to hold the knot or the lightning cage, or whathaveyou. I am not getting carried. And If a trial or dungeon is fast, I can do it on a non-arc/sorc, but if it's drawn out, I can't. And progs, for instance, are almost always drawn out. If I lose 20% of my damage, I am no longer useful, even with my knowledge.

BananaBender

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop he two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something. Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason which made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

I'm not really defending it. I just think it needs to be handled with care because of the new content design, as well as more recent older content design. Basically arc needs to be usable and viable. The current extreme endgame balance of having a couple arcs and then stacking plars or cros or nbs or dks feels pretty good, with lower tiers of endgame having more arcs and other parse classes.

I agree, balance should be handled with care, but ZoS threw that out the window with how they implemented subclassing. Arcanist isn't just slightly stronger than other classes, it's massively over tuned. To get back to anything that resembles the meta we have on live, arcanist needs to be nerfed significantly, or other classes need to be buffed by a lot. Though, arcanist has access to every other skill line as well, so buffing them wouldn't solve the issue.

sarahthes

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop he two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something. Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason which made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

I'm not really defending it. I just think it needs to be handled with care because of the new content design, as well as more recent older content design. Basically arc needs to be usable and viable. The current extreme endgame balance of having a couple arcs and then stacking plars or cros or nbs or dks feels pretty good, with lower tiers of endgame having more arcs and other parse classes.

I agree, balance should be handled with care, but ZoS threw that out the window with how they implemented subclassing. Arcanist just slightly stronger than other classes, it's massively over tuned. To get back to anything that resembles the meta we have on live, arcanist needs to be nerfed significantly, or other classes need to be buffed by a lot. Though, arcanist has access to every other skill line as well, so buffing them wouldn't solve the issue.

Every buff you give to arcanist buffs everyone else, and every buff you give to everyone else buffs arcanist. Likewise any nerf to arcanist nerfs everyone else, and every nerf to everyone else nerfs arcanist.

The only way to balance, then, is to carve out exclusions.

Edit: also, cut everyone's class pen in half. Make alkosh great again.

allochthons

sans-culottes wrote: »

Wouldn’t it make more sense for the developers to prioritize accessible, sustainable gameplay across all classes and skill lines rather than locking it behind Arcanists, their skills, and/or a specific mythic or two?

Wait. Maybe I'm misreading. I don't have access to the PTS, and so what I know is what I've read here, and some videos I've watched.

Are you saying that sub-classing is a case of the developers prioritizing accessible, sustainable gameplay across all classes and skill lines?

I am for subclassing. With the caveat of no PTS and limited knowledge. I'm not for nerfing what what works for me now, without giving me the ability to keep playing at the same level with the physical limitations that I have. Me, and a bunch of my 50+ year old gaming friends.

BananaBender

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop he two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something. Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason which made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

I'm not really defending it. I just think it needs to be handled with care because of the new content design, as well as more recent older content design. Basically arc needs to be usable and viable. The current extreme endgame balance of having a couple arcs and then stacking plars or cros or nbs or dks feels pretty good, with lower tiers of endgame having more arcs and other parse classes.

I agree, balance should be handled with care, but ZoS threw that out the window with how they implemented subclassing. Arcanist just slightly stronger than other classes, it's massively over tuned. To get back to anything that resembles the meta we have on live, arcanist needs to be nerfed significantly, or other classes need to be buffed by a lot. Though, arcanist has access to every other skill line as well, so buffing them wouldn't solve the issue.

Every buff you give to arcanist buffs everyone else, and every buff you give to everyone else buffs arcanist. Likewise any nerf to arcanist nerfs everyone else, and every nerf to everyone else nerfs arcanist.

The only way to balance, then, is to carve out exclusions.

Edit: also, cut everyone's class pen in half. Make alkosh great again.

Except a nerf to beam would only hurt arcanist, since no other class builds around beam, because they can't get access to arc class script.

Edit: I agree, bring back alkosh and EC

sarahthes

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I'm one of the people who has benefited greatly from both oakensoul and arcanist.
Oakensoul allowed me to move into much harder content. Arcanist has allowed me to stay there. Yes, I can hit those high numbers on the other classes, but not for long before my hands give out.

Nerfing them only damages my (and many of my older friends) ability to contribute. Not all gamers are 18.

Nerfing arcanist damage by 20% will basically not change anything for you, you might not even notice it, but it will make game overall much better

Keeping the damage capped at 135-140k for yet another patch is another 1000 hours of running on the spot going nowhere.

You may want that, not everyone is of that mindset though, and it would definitely be noticeable; please don't talk to other people like they are 12.

140k while normal builds without fatecarver have 170k, that's the difference we have right now on live(20%), IMO it should be 30% but I know zos will not do this. In PTS there is like 3% difference but beam arcanist has has the advantage even in ST fights... There will be absolutely no point in playing any other class anywhere, not to mention that it simply shouldn't be this way by absolutely any logic, how in the hell is arcanist doing 175k dps will full aoe setup while ST builds have 170k and are also 10 times harder to play, it doesn't make any sence at all

Idk if highland null arca is full aoe setup, but that's what they're using for every single class, not just arcanist, for those pts parses.

But the skills were AOE, compared to the highest non beam parses which are pretty much exclusively single target skills. Also, there isn't really a difference between AoE and single target setups anymore. Azure was the only real AoE set in the game and it's just not worth using anymore. Depths and Aegis Caller are the only ones which are even close to being competitive and both suffer from the same massive downside of having a small AoE and stationary.

There is just no reason to ever play something that isn't arc beam. And before anyone says to just play what you want and not listen to meta, just because you don't care about any resemblance of build balance, that doesn't mean others shouldn't either. Any alternative setup comes with downsides, beam has none. Nerfing the beam is the only option unless they decide to implement even more power creep by pushing other setups to 200k+ ST range, which I don't see them doing any time soon.

They don't need to nerf the beam directly. They could just make GLS not buff channeled skills. Then arc drops slightly, necro isn't actually nerfed, and the playing field gets leveled out a bit.

Btw the first boss in the new trial is going to require everyone to spec into beam whether it's good or bad. New trial is very much a ranged cleave trial due to anti stack mechanics on the enemies - if they get too close to each other, and if too many of them spawn, the fight gets exponentially harder. That fight is probably the real reason why azureblight was nerfed - the set would trivialize the fight and remove any semblance of difficulty from it (and it's not exactly hard by any means).

Without GLS arc would drop slightly, yes, but it's so much further ahead than anything else right now that it wouldn't matter. And yes, the new trial is insanely arcanist favoured which just makes this whole problem so much worse. I don't think the second boss HM is even clearable without a beam stack (I know they are going to change it next patch, hopefully enough to give other classes even a chance).

The problem is that arcanist benefits the most out of any other class from subclassing, and nerfing individual skills from other classes simply doesn't address the problem. They have everything you could ever want on a DD in one single skill line, meaning they can freely drop he two other lines to get any possible buffs to boost beam, and on top of that they get two full sets of offensive passives. Every other class has to sacrifice something. Because every class has access to every skill line, the class which has to sacrifice the least to access that will always be best off.

Every recent trial has been build around AoE damage and now arcanist is clearly the only one who has access to it. Previously good AoE classes, like DK will have to drop Talons and Eruption, since those are the only two skills either of those skill lines has going for them (when talking about parse and not buff DDs), sure you get other skills in their stead, but you have to give up two really good AoE skills for it.

Necro is the only other class which is even close to arc, since you have most of your offensive skills in the same skill line, but the problem is that the whole necro class is reliant on Corpseburster or Azureblight, which of course will be a dead set next patch. Necro also has to give up Pummelling Goliath, which was the only reason which made it better than other classes in certain fights. CB on the other hand requires you to fully commit to using as many necro abilities as possible, meaning that instead of being able to pick useful abilities to complement your class, you have room for one or two buff skills and that is it.
Arcanist can also utilize necro passives much better than necro can utilize arcanist ones, since the strongest passive requires consuming and gaining crux, when necro passives only require you to have 1 or 2 skills slotted.

On top of all of this, Arcanist has BY FAR the best class script available, which means that they get the most out of banner.

So, Arc sacrifices the least from subclassing, it's the only real AoE spec available anymore, it has the best synergy with the strongest buff skill in the game (banner), it gets the most out of other class passives, it's by far the easiest to play and it's roughly 3% behind of the highest, perfectly executed pure single target parses. Either ZoS has to jump through a tons of hoops and alter skills, skill lines and all the other stuff, or they just simply HEAVILY nerf the beam.

I have a feeling that majority of people who are defending the current state of arc on PTS have not actually played the new trial as arc, and as another class. The difference is SO much larger than anything on live right now.

I'm not really defending it. I just think it needs to be handled with care because of the new content design, as well as more recent older content design. Basically arc needs to be usable and viable. The current extreme endgame balance of having a couple arcs and then stacking plars or cros or nbs or dks feels pretty good, with lower tiers of endgame having more arcs and other parse classes.

I agree, balance should be handled with care, but ZoS threw that out the window with how they implemented subclassing. Arcanist just slightly stronger than other classes, it's massively over tuned. To get back to anything that resembles the meta we have on live, arcanist needs to be nerfed significantly, or other classes need to be buffed by a lot. Though, arcanist has access to every other skill line as well, so buffing them wouldn't solve the issue.

Every buff you give to arcanist buffs everyone else, and every buff you give to everyone else buffs arcanist. Likewise any nerf to arcanist nerfs everyone else, and every nerf to everyone else nerfs arcanist.

The only way to balance, then, is to carve out exclusions.

Edit: also, cut everyone's class pen in half. Make alkosh great again.

Except a nerf to beam would only hurt arcanist, since no other class builds around beam, because they can't get access to arc class script.

Edit: I agree, bring back alkosh and EC

Except that content is balanced around beam, so it's still a problem and everyone's going to still be subclassing into it even if they pick a different base class.