Elder Scrolls Online has always Canon but now its lore is referenced in a mainline game

spartaxoxo · April 23

The Elder Scrolls Oblivion: Remastered has ESO Lore! For example, Bosmer can hail from Reapers March! As a prequel game, this game's lore couldn't have been referenced in the single player games until now. It makes me wonder how ESO might influence TES:VI as well!

How do you feel about this game's canon status being cemented? How do you think future games might reference ESO? What's your theory on why the Vestige might become forgotten?

tomofhyrule · April 23

...was there a question about ESO's canonicity in the first place?

I mean, I know that early in development there was a large "ew MMO bad so it's non-canon!" base, but I thought by this point it was pretty well determined that ESO was definitely canon.

Also I did notice that Bretons have the Systres as an origin option, which is actually cool. Yes, the Systres did exist in the lore before ESO, but try to find out who knew about them before High Isle's release lol

As to why the events were forgotten... it's the Interregnum here. I'm sure that the Planemeld destroyed a lot of records, and since history is always written by the winners, a lot of it ended up passing into legend and myth by the time Tiber Septim comes by and razes everything to the ground. Again.
(Cyrodiil gets sacked almost as much as Orsinium does...)

TaSheen · April 23

Interesting questions. Truthfully, they're not the sort of thing I ever really consider. I'm not fussed about ESO being 2nd era canon.

I think your other questions will need to be answered if and when ESO-as-TES-canon is folded into remasters or re-releases of the other games.

ArchangelIsraphel · April 23

So, I'm pretty hyped about TESO's lore being cemented in the universe. I mean, it was already, but seeing the connections interwoven into the older mainline stories gives me chills (in a good way) especially since TESO was my first Elder Scrolls game. (I started Skyrim around the same time)

However- it does worry me just a little bit at the same time. I'm not really worried about the Oblivion remake, since it seems they've remained faithful to the original with the exception of some minor adjustments. (I hope we see Morrowind in all of it's bazaar glory get the remake treatment it deserves as well.) However, I am worried about future TES games, if only because the lore in TESO has gotten a bit watered down in more recent expansions.

What do I mean by that? Well, in recent years, I feel like there's been a shift away from the weirder, more esoteric aspects of the lore to instead focus on, shall we say, tamer stories. Going deeper into the lore of games like Morrowind and Oblivion, we find parts of the lore that are pretty wild. Sadly, I don't think I can go into many of them here due to the forums rules, but many of the Daedric princes aren't being given their due here (Sanguine, among others, frequently gets this treatment, although his darker aspects are hinted at.)

It just leads me to feel that in later chapters of TESO, the surface of the lore was brushed upon shallowly (although we do get moments that shine- like Zerith-Var's questline) and they're a bit afraid to go all the way, or else they fear they'll scare off the more mainstream audience of this game.

I'm hoping that when they tie TESO lore into future games, we won't see this unwillingness to go for the jugular, as it were, when it comes to story telling. Morrowind, in all of it's glory, was unapologetically weird and original, and I really hope we can see that kind of story telling in future TES games.

And I'm not talking violence or shock value stuff for the sake of startling the audience- I'm talking real, otherworldy storytelling that builds the bones of a society that isn't from this world, that has it's own morals and ethics separate from our own, and doesn't try to cater to the niceties of this world.

I really hope they stop pulling the punches when it comes to their story, both in TESO and in future games.

Otherwise, I'm happy to see TESO recognized, as I plan to bring my ESO character into Oblivion to cause trouble :P I really hope to see some references to the Vestige. I've got to do some thinking before I come up with any theories in regards to why they may have disappeared from Nirn. (or have they disappeared at all?

)

spartaxoxo · April 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...was there a question about ESO's canonicity in the first place?

Less than before but I definitely still saw comments from time to time in various places insisting it wasn't. It seemed mostly because it wasn't in any single player games yet.

Syldras · April 23

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

However- it does worry me just a little bit at the same time. I'm not really worried about the Oblivion remake, since it seems they've remained faithful to the original with the exception of some minor adjustments. (I hope we see Morrowind in all of it's bazaar glory get the remake treatment it deserves as well.) However, I am worried about future TES games, if only because the lore in TESO has gotten a bit watered down in more recent expansions.
What do I mean by that? Well, in recent years, I feel like there's been a shift away from the weirder, more esoteric aspects of the lore to instead focus on, shall we say, tamer stories. Going deeper into the lore of games like Morrowind and Oblivion, we find parts of the lore that are pretty wild. Sadly, I don't think I can go into many of them here due to the forums rules, but many of the Daedric princes aren't being given their due here (Sanguine, among others, frequently gets this treatment, although his darker aspects are hinted at.)
It just leads me to feel that in later chapters of TESO, the surface of the lore was brushed upon shallowly (although we do get moments that shine- like Zerith-Var's questline) and they're a bit afraid to go all the way, or else they fear they'll scare off the more mainstream audience of this game.

Exactly this is the reason why, unfortunately, I don't expect an official Morrowind remake anytime soon.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I really hope to see some references to the Vestige. I've got to do some thinking before I come up with any theories in regards to why they may have disappeared from Nirn. (or have they disappeared at all? )

The... what? Don't tell me you also had that weird dream about the second era that I had when I was on that ship from Cyrodiil to Seyda Neen...?!

ArchangelIsraphel · April 23

Syldras wrote: »

The... what? Don't tell me you also had that weird dream about the second era that I had when I was on that ship from Cyrodiil to Seyda Neen...?!

You too?!? Oh you know how us bosmers get after we've dined on one too many Imperial sailors. What are they putting in the rotmeth these days anyway?

Syldras · April 23

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

You too?!? Oh you know us bosmers get after we've dined on one too many Imperial sailors. What are they putting in the rotmeth these days anyway?

Isn't rotmeth just the Bosmeri word for that liquid that sausages in glass jars are preserved in?

I can assure you that, while I did spend some time in Valenwood lately, I did not pick up the habit of eating Imperial sailors (or any other sailors); neither have I bitten one lately - so there must be other reasons for this strange dream. Maybe I should consult an expert on metaphysics of my glorious House - or maybe ask a Temple priest. Their attempts at explaining unusual occurrences are usually rather droll, which might be just what I need. The dream was quite confusing and almost a little unsettling, after all.

Ah yes, the topic... I always considered ESO lore to be a normal part of TES lore, no problem with that at all.

From what I've seen, there are 2 different background options during character creation in the Oblivion remake? Do they make any difference in stats? Or in dialogues?

spartaxoxo · April 23

Syldras wrote: »

From what I've seen, there are 2 different background options during character creation in the Oblivion remake? Do they make any difference in stats? Or in dialogues?

Yes, they make a difference in stats. Unsure about dialogue yet. I haven't gotten to do much.

Hypertionb14_ESO · April 23

Likely a Dragon Break. IE a so much happened there is no way we can logically have one person be the singular cause for it all so the official story is different from the actual game due to variability.

pretty much all major TES games involve some level of Dragon Break due to them being somewhat open ended.

Wereswan · April 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

...was there a question about ESO's canonicity in the first place?

I mean, I know that early in development there was a large "ew MMO bad so it's non-canon!" base, but I thought by this point it was pretty well determined that ESO was definitely canon.

Also I did notice that Bretons have the Systres as an origin option, which is actually cool. Yes, the Systres did exist in the lore before ESO, but try to find out who knew about them before High Isle's release lol

As to why the events were forgotten... it's the Interregnum here. I'm sure that the Planemeld destroyed a lot of records, and since history is always written by the winners, a lot of it ended up passing into legend and myth by the time Tiber Septim comes by and razes everything to the ground. Again.
(Cyrodiil gets sacked almost as much as Orsinium does...)

I do encounter a lot of people who will immediately blow a gasket if ESO is brought up in TES lore discussions, yes.

ArchangelIsraphel · April 23

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

You too?!? Oh you know us bosmers get after we've dined on one too many Imperial sailors. What are they putting in the rotmeth these days anyway?

Isn't rotmeth just the Bosmeri word for that liquid that sausages in glass jars are preserved in?

I can assure you that, while I did spend some time in Valenwood lately, I did not pick up the habit of eating Imperial sailors (or any other sailors); neither have I bitten one lately - so there must be other reasons for this strange dream. Maybe I should consult an expert on metaphysics of my glorious House - or maybe ask a Temple priest. Their attempts at explaining unusual occurrences are usually rather droll, which might be just what I need. The dream was quite confusing and almost a little unsettling, after all.

Ah yes, the topic... I always considered ESO lore to be a normal part of TES lore, no problem with that at all.

From what I've seen, there are 2 different background options during character creation in the Oblivion remake? Do they make any difference in stats? Or in dialogues?

*casually sips sausage water with a mini-umbrella and a slice of lime on the rim of the jar* You saw nothing! >.>

If you manage to get in contact with the Temple Priests, do me a favor and ask them about the strange fever dream I had about riding across Cyrodiil on a multi-armed horse that was weilding about a thousand swords while wearing an outfit made of feathers. I'm sure it must have some sort of deeply important, highly impactful meaning that is bound to shape Nirn as we know it.

So about the background options- they're reminiscent of the old gender differences in the original release, back when the gender you chose affected your stats. Here's a really good guide on what the origins will do for your character, and what the base stats are: https://www.reddit.com/r/oblivion/comments/1k5ctgt/character_origins_and_their_impact_on_your/

I'm still not sure if we get special dialogue or not- hopefully so!

Syldras · April 23

This needs clarification:

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

If you manage to get in contact with the Temple Priests, do me a favor and ask them about the strange fever dream I had about riding across Cyrodiil on a multi-armed horse that was weilding about a thousand swords while wearing an outfit made of feathers.

Were you wearing that feather outfit, or was the horse?

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

So about the background options- they're reminiscent of the old gender differences in the original release, back when the gender you chose affected your stats. Here's a really good guide on what the origins will do for your character, and what the base stats are: https://www.reddit.com/r/oblivion/comments/1k5ctgt/character_origins_and_their_impact_on_your/

Interesting, thanks, I'll look into it!

TheMajority · April 23

So for me I'm excited that ESO lore is being in the older games because I have a feeling of being connected to them now. Before, I feel like ESO is "floating in space" even though it has the same characters. Because of no metion of certain stuffs in the past. I just wish the game was not as big of a expense as it is.

Maybe they would change and tweak some stuff to say the vestige is there? Or maybe a daedric prince wiped all the memories of them. Or maybe the old theory of them being a soul shriven just dreaming of saving the world is correct.

kind of weird that emperor Uriel still thinks he's only the 21'st emperor when about a billion people sat in his chair in ESO lol

colossalvoids · April 23

Don't really get the excitement about ESO being canon/not canon, you can choose whatever fits your preference as some of the writers described lore as a sandbox for the player. For example I would not dismiss CwC dlc arc personally but comical count of Skingrad and his pet cub? Sorry, can't take it seriously enough. Basically fleshed out stories are fine but side quests as a quota filler are highly debatable personally to even gave a second thought about it. The flair of it would stay however, like colovians having some tradition of taking bears as pets and personal bodyguards etc.

PrayingSeraph · April 23

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Likely a Dragon Break. IE a so much happened there is no way we can logically have one person be the singular cause for it all so the official story is different from the actual game due to variability.

pretty much all major TES games involve some level of Dragon Break due to them being somewhat open ended.

Unless specified(like Daggerfall), there is no real evidence of Dragon Break during TES games. Events can happen in the timeline, but said events may or may not be caused by the protagonist. For example, the Companions questline in Skyrim may very well take place, but unless stated otherwise(which Bethesda wont do), we dont know if the Dragonborn was involved or not.

Player choice does not mean dragon break. Developers can keep things vague enough to allow players to fill in the gaps for themselves. Other franchises do this all the time, and lack dragon breaks.

amig186 · April 23

I'm not sure if mentioning one geographical location is enough to cement the entirety of ESO as canon. I thought there would be more significance to that choice of birthplace, but if it's just a clever way to avoid using male and female, and mentioning any differences between them, then it's probably just something they came up with on the fly without considering any implications re canon

Dreameira · April 23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What's your theory on why the Vestige might become forgotten?

I always thought that this was subtly explained in the base game; one of the random lines you can hear from Molag Bal when you close a Dolmen says "I will ensure no tales are told of your valor."

maboleth · April 23

Considering ESO was and still is the biggest and most detailed ES game to date (well, Oblivion is still a remake), you bet it is and should be canon.

Also many areas and locations have never seen before in any ES game to date.

I'm glad Bethesda is doing this and I'm 100% sure ESO WILL be mentioned in ES VI.

I don't care what naysayers say (Bethesda/ZOS made the lore anyway and can do whatever they want), the fact is ESO expanded and paved the road for ES lore in all directions.

old_scopie1945 · April 23

Based in an earlier era, ESO has redefined Elder Scrolls lore and world. ESO has now become a fountain for new knowledge and cemented itself in the Elder Scrolls world.

maboleth · April 23

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Based in an earlier era, ESO has redefined Elder Scrolls lore and world. ESO has now become a fountain for new knowledge and cemented itself in the Elder Scrolls world.

This. What started as a shy 'hello there, Elder Scrolls brothers' project, replicating the experiences of known ES lands has now become a fountain of new knowledge. Why? Because it's the most actively developed Elder Scrolls game ever. As I mentioned previously, a lot of new ideas, new lands and peoples are seen right here.

spartaxoxo · April 24

maboleth wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Based in an earlier era, ESO has redefined Elder Scrolls lore and world. ESO has now become a fountain for new knowledge and cemented itself in the Elder Scrolls world.

This. What started as a shy 'hello there, Elder Scrolls brothers' project, replicating the experiences of known ES lands has now become a fountain of new knowledge. Why? Because it's the most actively developed Elder Scrolls game ever. As I mentioned previously, a lot of new ideas, new lands and peoples are seen right here.

I think they've also done a fantastic job with the look of everything. I am not a fan of every story beat, especially more recently, but there's a lot of stuff for newer games to build on as well.

Danikat · April 24

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Likely a Dragon Break. IE a so much happened there is no way we can logically have one person be the singular cause for it all so the official story is different from the actual game due to variability.

pretty much all major TES games involve some level of Dragon Break due to them being somewhat open ended.

Nope, there's only been 4 known Dragon Breaks in the entire history of Tamriel, only 2 within games and only 1 which is really relevant to the plot. There is one in ESO, part of a short side quest, but it only affected a very small area for a short time (a few days I think).

The one most relevant to the games is at the end of TES II Daggerfall, which allows all the possible endings to have happened at the same time (and also creating a surprisingly stable political situation in the area) so they didn't have to pick one ending to be canon, but none of the other games include Dragon Breaks.

The other two happen outside the games. By far the most significant, the one people in Tamriel call THE Dragon Break, was the Middle Dawn era, which lasted over 1,000 years. The other one was when Tiber Septim used the Numidium in his conquest of Tamriel. (The same thing which caused the Dragon Break in Daggerfall.)

I think after it was used to explain the ending of Daggerfall some people latched on to the idea as an easy way to explain away anything they didn't like as 'not really part of the lore' even if it happen in a game, but Dragon Breaks are not nearly as common as they like to claim and also don't work like that - a very important aspect of Dragon Breaks is that anything which happened within one still happened and will impact events after the Break ends, they just don't need to have happened in any kind of logical order.

The way the other games open-ended nature is handled in lore is simply to say all the events happened and leave it ambiguous whether the player character was involved or not, explained by the fact that most people don't know (or especially care) who they are. So during the events of the Oblivion Crisis (aka TES IV Oblivion) one of the Elder Scrolls was stolen, the Imperial City Arena champion was defeated, Hircine's followers hunted a unicorn and so on, it's just left unclear whether one person was involved in all these events and whether that person was the Hero of Kavatch who was instrumental in ending the Oblivion Crisis.

It's the same with ESO. Everything happening within the game is happening in lore, it just happens with or without you present.

spartaxoxo · May 9

The statue of Vanus Galerian has been updated to be ESO's model. Just saw this pic on the wiki after trying to be precise about his dremora snacks line.

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TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 10

I would prefer the single player games no be canon to ESO and not the otherway around, if the events of the single player games are our future where Tiber Septim is considered a great hero despite having rather insignificant achivements compared to the Vestige who is completely forgotten then I do not want to live in that timeline, Tiber Septim in his life probably never even left Nirn.

Martin Septim would not even need to sacrifice himself if the Vestige was there, the Vestige would likely cause Mehrunes Dagon to nope out of there and go back to Oblivion himself and as for the events of Skyrim, what exactly did the Last Dragonborn do that someone of equal or greater power couldn't? what part of the fight with Alduin involved the Last Dragonborn using Dragonborn-Exclusive abilities against them cause they sure as hell did not absorb him, as for Lord Harkon and the events of Dawnguard, the Vestige encounters Vampire Lords just as powerful as Harkon at Harrowstorms, the Vestige has bested Vampire Lords that would turn Harkon into a smeer on the sidewalk.

colossalvoids · May 10

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I would prefer the single player games no be canon to ESO and not the otherway around, if the events of the single player games are our future where Tiber Septim is considered a great hero despite having rather insignificant achivements compared to the Vestige who is completely forgotten then I do not want to live in that timeline, Tiber Septim in his life probably never even left Nirn.

Martin Septim would not even need to sacrifice himself if the Vestige was there, the Vestige would likely cause Mehrunes Dagon to nope out of there and go back to Oblivion himself and as for the events of Skyrim, what exactly did the Last Dragonborn do that someone of equal or greater power couldn't? what part of the fight with Alduin involved the Last Dragonborn using Dragonborn-Exclusive abilities against them cause they sure as hell did not absorb him, as for Lord Harkon and the events of Dawnguard, the Vestige encounters Vampire Lords just as powerful as Harkon at Harrowstorms, the Vestige has bested Vampire Lords that would turn Harkon into a smeer on the sidewalk.

Guess it's vice versa to me personally if I get you correctly. ESO events to me are more of a collective thing rather than a single Vestige accomplishment. More like all the players played a role in it, big or small in a sense. Sure I as a player did all the quests playing every single role possible but it's more of a gamy thing and not the lore accurate representation of what's happened. While single players games are more centered around you alone being the moving force of change (and if you didn't done something in your playthrough it's a deed of your other character or happened naturally without a Hero's involvement). Both have places in one world but ESO ultimately is an elder scrolls themed park adventure where you're having your power fantasy of defeating gods left and right, while canonically it would actions of multiple heroes on their journeys that made it all happen, some group of adventures went to the Halls of Fabrication whilst the other group ventured out to the March of Sacrifices obeying the call of the Hunt. And the Planemeld was stopped by the armies of the three factions (all of us) and guilds (us, again) in a unified push, not by a singled out player mowing down hordes by himself with stationary NPC's around. But that's just me and how I justify ESO's existence in a lore ecosystem.