New Vet Content Idea

MurkyWetWolf198

Can we get some Trial or 4-man content that has anti-cleave mechanics? Part of the reason Arc is so dominant is because the endgame content rewards cleave, especially ranged cleave. Could we get content with mechanics designed to punish builds that don’t control cleave?

Renato90085

this patch log have many necro/temp in vka hm top 100

sarahthes

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can we get some Trial or 4-man content that has anti-cleave mechanics? Part of the reason Arc is so dominant is because the endgame content rewards cleave, especially ranged cleave. Could we get content with mechanics designed to punish builds that don’t control cleave?

Currently before balance pass arc on pts has the highest single target as well as aoe.

MurkyWetWolf198

sarahthes wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can we get some Trial or 4-man content that has anti-cleave mechanics? Part of the reason Arc is so dominant is because the endgame content rewards cleave, especially ranged cleave. Could we get content with mechanics designed to punish builds that don’t control cleave?

Currently before balance pass arc on pts has the highest single target as well as aoe.

I’m specifically thinking of mechs that punish uncontrolled AoE. Like having the boss summon a mini that Tank needs to keep alive to keep a defensive buff (like vMoL last boss pads, but tied to getting hit by the mini or something), but the mini needs to be taunted so it doesn’t pick-off DDs. Obviously not a perfect idea, but something that would challenge players to control the AoE burn

sarahthes

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Can we get some Trial or 4-man content that has anti-cleave mechanics? Part of the reason Arc is so dominant is because the endgame content rewards cleave, especially ranged cleave. Could we get content with mechanics designed to punish builds that don’t control cleave?

Currently before balance pass arc on pts has the highest single target as well as aoe.

I’m specifically thinking of mechs that punish uncontrolled AoE. Like having the boss summon a mini that Tank needs to keep alive to keep a defensive buff (like vMoL last boss pads, but tied to getting hit by the mini or something), but the mini needs to be taunted so it doesn’t pick-off DDs. Obviously not a perfect idea, but something that would challenge players to control the AoE burn

The second boss of the new trial sort of does this. There's a reflect on some creatures that are in the fight but that can't be killed by the players, so some thoughtfulness of where to aim beams and place ground dots is required. However the arena is pretty big.

TempestM

That sounds like a horrible idea. If the minis getting burned together with a boss is a problem, then make them immobile or somehow restricted to not allow them to stack. Put them in portal to have them getting killed separately. Punishing people simply for using their most effective tools that the devs gave them like Beam or Jabs is only gonna make everyone frustrated instead of making a trial better

Soarora

TempestM wrote: »

That sounds like a horrible idea. If the minis getting burned together with a boss is a problem, then make them immobile or somehow restricted to not allow them to stack. Put them in portal to have them getting killed separately. Punishing people simply for using their most effective tools that the devs gave them like Beam or Jabs is only gonna make everyone frustrated instead of making a trial better

Build diversity. Can’t have them within a trial because meta plagues us all. But between content?
Like how AS you need ranged builds. CR you need 2 bars. Make a new mini trial where you need single target and it’ll be right at home.

Also, jabs hasn’t been most effective for a while and there’s 6 other classes that aren’t arcanist.

TempestM

Soarora wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

That sounds like a horrible idea. If the minis getting burned together with a boss is a problem, then make them immobile or somehow restricted to not allow them to stack. Put them in portal to have them getting killed separately. Punishing people simply for using their most effective tools that the devs gave them like Beam or Jabs is only gonna make everyone frustrated instead of making a trial better

Build diversity. Can’t have them within a trial because meta plagues us all. But between content?
Like how AS you need ranged builds. CR you need 2 bars. Make a new mini trial where you need single target and it’ll be right at home.

Also, jabs hasn’t been most effective for a while and there’s 6 other classes that aren’t arcanist.

It's not a diversity if you're actively getting punished for using your main tool just because that's your class. It's actually less diversity
You don't need ranged builds in AS. Even arcanists want to get closer when they can to apply blade cloak. And even when ranged is more convenient you're not actively punished for daring to come there with melee. You also don't need 2 bars on AS, they fixed it long time ago (mech won't spawn on those with oaken). Bad examples overall

Again, if cleaving down bosses is such a problem there are more solutions. That devs actually used before. Split bosses like DSR first boss. Portals where mini is unreachable. They know how to implement this. Stacking adds and minis is a core gameplay of supports. Devs want us to burn them together. If they didn't they can easily make boss which can't be stacked

Ragnarok0130

It seems that a new feature like this should be thought of only after ZoS has completed and most importantly balanced multiclassing. I'm not sure how long that would take but U48-50 should be safe.

sarahthes

TempestM wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

That sounds like a horrible idea. If the minis getting burned together with a boss is a problem, then make them immobile or somehow restricted to not allow them to stack. Put them in portal to have them getting killed separately. Punishing people simply for using their most effective tools that the devs gave them like Beam or Jabs is only gonna make everyone frustrated instead of making a trial better

Build diversity. Can’t have them within a trial because meta plagues us all. But between content?
Like how AS you need ranged builds. CR you need 2 bars. Make a new mini trial where you need single target and it’ll be right at home.

Also, jabs hasn’t been most effective for a while and there’s 6 other classes that aren’t arcanist.

It's not a diversity if you're actively getting punished for using your main tool just because that's your class. It's actually less diversity
You don't need ranged builds in AS. Even arcanists want to get closer when they can to apply blade cloak. And even when ranged is more convenient you're not actively punished for daring to come there with melee. You also don't need 2 bars on AS, they fixed it long time ago (mech won't spawn on those with oaken). Bad examples overall

Again, if cleaving down bosses is such a problem there are more solutions. That devs actually used before. Split bosses like DSR first boss. Portals where mini is unreachable. They know how to implement this. Stacking adds and minis is a core gameplay of supports. Devs want us to burn them together. If they didn't they can easily make boss which can't be stacked

You do need ranged builds to be optimal for AS otherwise any time you are kiting or the boss is jumping you aren't doing damage.

Edit: also, oaken builds will still get bar swap mechanic if somebody else who has bar swap dies with the mechanic, as the mechanic "jumps" when that takes place.

2nd edit: you can almost stack the bosses in DSR HM and have arcs hit both of them. We call this the "conjoined domes" strat.

https://youtu.be/5Xe8jekfU2s?si=nSu8LnuwCL6TbIeG

TempestM

sarahthes wrote: »

You do need ranged builds to be optimal for AS otherwise any time you are kiting or the boss is jumping you aren't doing damage.

Edit: also, oaken builds will still get bar swap mechanic if somebody else who has bar swap dies with the mechanic, as the mechanic "jumps" when that takes place.

2nd edit: you can almost stack the bosses in DSR HM and have arcs hit both of them. We call this the "conjoined domes" strat.

And just like I said, it's only more convenient, not "punished for doing so". You wouldn't bring Oakensoul in cr+3 because it does bad damage, not because of Overload.
Your last example is the funniest one. Cool, you brought the bosses closer... but "stand in dome" is anti-stacking mechanic here. Even in the video you can see that wrong boss taking a whooping 40 (not 40k but 40) damage per second... Sure, theoretically possible, but basically pointless when you're aiming for 100k+.
And what's more importantly you're already prevented from doing OP cleave by lowering your damage by 99% without being actively punished for bringing cleave ability

sarahthes

TempestM wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

You do need ranged builds to be optimal for AS otherwise any time you are kiting or the boss is jumping you aren't doing damage.

Edit: also, oaken builds will still get bar swap mechanic if somebody else who has bar swap dies with the mechanic, as the mechanic "jumps" when that takes place.

2nd edit: you can almost stack the bosses in DSR HM and have arcs hit both of them. We call this the "conjoined domes" strat.

And just like I said, it's only more convenient, not "punished for doing so". You wouldn't bring Oakensoul in cr+3 because it does bad damage, not because of Overload.
Your last example is the funniest one. Cool, you brought the bosses closer... but "stand in dome" is anti-stacking mechanic here. Even in the video you can see that wrong boss taking a whooping 40 (not 40k but 40) damage per second... Sure, theoretically possible, but basically pointless when you're aiming for 100k+.
And what's more importantly you're already prevented from doing OP cleave by lowering your damage by 99% without being actively punished for bringing cleave ability

That DSR boss is proccing azureblight on the one that is taking damage, which enables the fight to progress faster. You can see the azureblight procs in the video.

That was a world record run btw.

TempestM

Are you purposefully ignoring my point that you are not punished for cleaving/not cleaving in this fight? Those who set world records are outliers to how trial was designed

Cooperharley

This is very unimaginative IMO. Develop content to where it purposefully punishes arcanist gameplay? What? Lol.

I'd rather them spend time developing meaningful content that's good for everyone and work on combat balancing instead..

sarahthes

TempestM wrote: »

Are you purposefully ignoring my point that you are not punished for cleaving/not cleaving in this fight? Those who set world records are outliers to how trial was designed

The punishment to doing the fight slower is doing more rounds of mechanics, which are more opportunities to wipe.

Slower but still fast strats hold atros on boss the whole time for faster cleave, so that when you go into split phase one of the bosses (the second one) is already in execute range. The first one unfortunately heals.

When my group does DSR HM we only see each execute mechanic once because of this. Compare to my first HM clear where we pulled off damage, unstacked atros, etc and we had 3-4 rounds of mechanics and wiped because of it.

TempestM

sarahthes wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

Are you purposefully ignoring my point that you are not punished for cleaving/not cleaving in this fight? Those who set world records are outliers to how trial was designed

The punishment to doing the fight slower is doing more rounds of mechanics, which are more opportunities to wipe.

Slower but still fast strats hold atros on boss the whole time for faster cleave, so that when you go into split phase one of the bosses (the second one) is already in execute range. The first one unfortunately heals.

When my group does DSR HM we only see each execute mechanic once because of this. Compare to my first HM clear where we pulled off damage, unstacked atros, etc and we had 3-4 rounds of mechanics and wiped because of it.

That's not a punishment, that's just convenience. OP suggest straight up punishment for cleaving.

MurkyWetWolf198

TempestM wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

Are you purposefully ignoring my point that you are not punished for cleaving/not cleaving in this fight? Those who set world records are outliers to how trial was designed

The punishment to doing the fight slower is doing more rounds of mechanics, which are more opportunities to wipe.

Slower but still fast strats hold atros on boss the whole time for faster cleave, so that when you go into split phase one of the bosses (the second one) is already in execute range. The first one unfortunately heals.

When my group does DSR HM we only see each execute mechanic once because of this. Compare to my first HM clear where we pulled off damage, unstacked atros, etc and we had 3-4 rounds of mechanics and wiped because of it.

That's not a punishment, that's just convenience. OP suggest straight up punishment for cleaving.

Yep.

To be as specific as possible, I’m proposing a mechanic that would punish the over-usage of cleave. So many playstyles and builds are punished for being too single target, I think it’s only fair to have some fights that even those odds

tomofhyrule

Honestly, I think it would make for an interesting mechanic. I was even considering it myself.

Imagine a fight where you have two bosses (well, a boss and a lower-health helper add). They need to be in range of each other to break their shields and become damageable (so the two tanks have to keep them close), but then if the one dies, the other becomes that much harder to kill or comes out with some other weird mechanic up to and including a group wipe.

Sure it'd make my life suck as a tank, but that would totally be something interesting. We already had cases where one specific trial (usually vAS) would have a totally different 'meta' comp than the others because of how it's designed, and there really isn't anything in-game that has a very "single-target is king" strategy. It'd be different, that's for sure.

We do have fights like that as well - the third boss of FG2 (yes, the one that nobody knows is there because she's skippable) does the whole "don't let the adds die" thing because every spider that dies means she takes significantly less damage. There is also the Guardian Preserved achieve in Castle Thorn which is "do HM without killing the Blood Guardian," which is really tough since the DPS need to be pure single target on Lady Thorn because the Guardian has such low health that the tank actually needs to watch their DPS.