Can we have another companion as cool as Sharp-As-Night?

ArchangelIsraphel

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Sharing some aspects is great, but then you have to get into exactly what makes Sharp 'cool' and I am sure most people have their own ideas of that.

From my perspective, I like the banter and the fact that he has a sense of humor in spite of all he's been through. I got attached to Mirri for the same reason. It's how I relate to friends (who consent to banter, of course) and so it's easy for me to imagine how my characters would play off them.

While I don't want to see the same style of banter as Sharps repeated too many times, I would like other companions to be witty.

IMO, it's a sign that the character trusts your character when they can joke with you freely.

Syldras wrote: »

The other way round, I wouldn't mind at all if they'd avoid aspects in future companions (and other npcs) that didn't go down well with the audience. Like obtrusive "flirtiness". Yes, it's that topic again And if they insist on continuing to create "flirty" npcs, I'm still waiting for an option to give them a nice knuckle sandwich. Each one of them. Repeatedly. A keyboard has over 100 keys, there should be one left for a "punch npc" function

To be honest, this can't be hammered home enough. Give us a "please stop" button. Or better yet, don't even have the NPC flirt with our character unless we indicate interest through a dialogue option first. Or... I've got a Volendrung furnishing in my inventory. Let me use it >.>;

Syldras

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I would like other companions to be witty.

Who doesn't? But what counts as witty might be a question of personal perspective, I'm afraid If you were really idiotic (use positive language, Syldras,...) dense unintelligent (I give up...) like Rigurt the Brash (I know you know him - I just want to make sure no one thinks I'm shaming a real person here), you would have other demands than... well... actual you.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

IMO, it's a sign that the character trusts your character when they can joke with you freely.

Freely?! That's very unsafe!

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Give us a "please stop" button. Or better yet, don't even have the NPC flirt with our character unless we indicate interest through a dialogue option first.

It would also help to actually have our character and the companion develop some rapport first to even start with that topic. Then it might even feel like it had a bit of meaning, even if I personally had no interest in that character.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Or... I've got a Volendrung furnishing in my inventory. Let me use it >.>;

For that purpose, I carry an Alinor windmill with me. Interpret that as you wish

(In case you find that cruel, there's actually a traditional and very popular children's story in my country about two misbehaving individuals ending up being thrown into the grinder of a windmill. Everyone loves it.)

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Given the way the companions sometimes park on top of you, they might sooner end up stomped on by the mammoth when they end up under you instead

I never had that happen. My main always ends up doing questionable things with Azandar at wayshrines, though.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Overall, back to the topic, I would prefer more unique personalities, rather than just rehashing personalities. There are a lot of things they could do and I honestly would be afraid that if they did end up 'making another companion like Sharp' that it would just feel like a reskin of Sharp and not its own character.
Sharing some aspects is great, but then you have to get into exactly what makes Sharp 'cool' and I am sure most people have their own ideas of that.

The other way round, I wouldn't mind at all if they'd avoid aspects in future companions (and other npcs) that didn't go down well with the audience. Like obtrusive "flirtiness". Yes, it's that topic again And if they insist on continuing to create "flirty" npcs, I'm still waiting for an option to give them a nice knuckle sandwich. Each one of them. Repeatedly. A keyboard has over 100 keys, there should be one left for a "punch npc" function

Oh, I wouldn't be opposed to them looking at what seems to be very unpopular and avoiding it as much as they can. So I am definitely down for that.

I would prefer not just the knuckle sandwich option, but also, if they must make flirty characters, make it so the character gets to know the PC first before they start being 'hey want to retire early tonight? *wink*'. At least give me a chance to feel more than just a slab of meat at market :P Which I think is a lot of my issues with the flirty NPCs. Too many of them immediately start it up and I am like 'hey, you don't even know me! I could kick puppies for fun in my spare time! Still want to flirt?'

But, if the flirting happened after a while, when the NPC had a chance to get to know my character, it would feel more 'natural', though that opens up the issue for people who don't want the flirtiness at all, which is yet another option, the ability to say 'no, I don't want random NPCs flirting with my character, give me different dialogue options!'

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I would prefer not just the knuckle sandwich option, but also, if they must make flirty characters, make it so the character gets to know the PC first before they start being 'hey want to retire early tonight? *wink*'. At least give me a chance to feel more than just a slab of meat at market :P Which I think is a lot of my issues with the flirty NPCs. Too many of them immediately start it up and I am like 'hey, you don't even know me! I could kick puppies for fun in my spare time! Still want to flirt?''

My main usually wonders whether he has a black soul gem ready. Or a place in his... guest chambers in the basement. Otherwise, he, unfortunately, has to refuse.

No, honestly: From a roleplay perspective, the most realistic reaction would be disgust. Depending on his overall mood, he'd probably manage to politely leave without saying a word (especially if the situation requires self-restraint), or he'd lash out. But no matter his reaction, he'd definitely feel irritation. And I'd wish, if I have to play through such a situation, for my character to be able to react accordingly in game. No just remain silent or even being forced to approve.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

But, if the flirting happened after a while, when the NPC had a chance to get to know my character, it would feel more 'natural', though that opens up the issue for people who don't want the flirtiness at all, which is yet another option, the ability to say 'no, I don't want random NPCs flirting with my character, give me different dialogue options!'

An option so say no should exist in any case. That the "flirting" feels so extremely obstrusive and context-less is just the tip of the iceberg, in a way. I wrote it in a different thread, I think, but if it felt somehow meaningful at least, like a companion you travelled with a lot carefully telling you that they feel drawn to you - that would be less awful; even if I might still not be interested, it wouldn't feel that annoying at least.

Also the "flirting" always seems to have the same formula in ESO. Like there's one personality type called "flirty" (and everyone else doesn't flirt at all), and the way to flirt is yelling stupid platitudes at you immediately upon meeting. I don't think it's a secret, but in real life, other people flirt, too - in their own specific way. If ESO ever does romance, I really hope they do consider that. I'm sure that "even" Azandar could express his attraction to the player character (if you'd go down that path with a questline or something like that) - but he'd certainly do it differently than Isobel or Tanlorin. Everything else would be totally horrid.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I would prefer not just the knuckle sandwich option, but also, if they must make flirty characters, make it so the character gets to know the PC first before they start being 'hey want to retire early tonight? *wink*'. At least give me a chance to feel more than just a slab of meat at market :P Which I think is a lot of my issues with the flirty NPCs. Too many of them immediately start it up and I am like 'hey, you don't even know me! I could kick puppies for fun in my spare time! Still want to flirt?''

My main usually wonders whether he has a black soul gem ready. Or a place in his... guest chambers in the basement. Otherwise, he, unfortunately, has to refuse.

No, honestly: From a roleplay perspective, the most realistic reaction would be disgust. Depending on his overall mood, he'd probably manage to politely leave without saying a word (especially if the situation requires self-restraint), or he'd lash out. But no matter his reaction, he'd definitely feel irritation. And I'd wish, if I have to play through such a situation, for my character to be able to react accordingly in game. No just remain silent or even being forced to approve.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

But, if the flirting happened after a while, when the NPC had a chance to get to know my character, it would feel more 'natural', though that opens up the issue for people who don't want the flirtiness at all, which is yet another option, the ability to say 'no, I don't want random NPCs flirting with my character, give me different dialogue options!'

An option so say no should exist in any case. That the "flirting" feels so extremely obstrusive and context-less is just the tip of the iceberg, in a way. I wrote it in a different thread, I think, but if it felt somehow meaningful at least, like a companion you travelled with a lot carefully telling you that they feel drawn to you - that would be less awful; even if I might still not be interested, it wouldn't feel that annoying at least.

Also the "flirting" always seems to have the same formula in ESO. Like there's one personality type called "flirty" (and everyone else doesn't flirt at all), and the way to flirt is yelling stupid platitudes at you immediately upon meeting. I don't think it's a secret, but in real life, other people flirt, too - in their own specific way. If ESO ever does romance, I really hope they do consider that. I'm sure that "even" Azandar could express his attraction to the player character (if you'd go down that path with a questline or something like that) - but he'd certainly do it differently than Isobel or Tanlorin. Everything else would be totally horrid.

Yeah, my character wouldn't react in disgust, but he probably would want to run and hide from someone who is constantly flirting with him. Or roll his eyes so hard he needs a headache potion.

Yeah, I wonder if the lack of different types of flirty behavior is because the dialogue is 'written for the masses' or just because they have a limited number of writers, and those writers like that particular trope? Many single player games don't have that issue. They will occasionally have a character that immediately starts out flirty, but it is one of those that they flirt with everyone, young, old, evil, good, and so on. They might even flirt with the animals on the street or the house whose door they just knocked on. Their default is 'flirt' and it means absolutely nothing. When they do have romance options for companion characters, there is usually a whole 'leading up to this character actually liking your character and you have to get to know them and travel with them before the option of romance comes up'

Going back to that Altmer Scholar we are always talking about, his idea of flirting would probably be sharing his favorite books, or talking about some piece of trivia he learned. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious until he *really* knew the player character he is travelling with. When he first meets you? He definitely wouldn't be in a flirting mood.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, I wonder if the lack of different types of flirty behavior is because the dialogue is 'written for the masses' or just because they have a limited number of writers, and those writers like that particular trope?

In a way, this is already a problem: It's a trope, there's nothing realistic about it. There might be a few intellectually unlucky individuals who actually yell stupid phrases at strangers and believe that's a way to earn someone's positive attention - but normally, that's not the way it works in real life. Instead of resorting to a not exactly well-received trope, I'd suggest people who want to write fiction, in general, to really go outside, talk to different people, watch different people's interactions, or at least read a vast variety of literature (beyond trivial mass-produced stuff that's fastly hyped and fastly discarded again), to learn about how different people behave and how they talk. And then apply that accordingly to your own fictional world, in a way that makes sense for it. To write about the world, one needs experience. You know, actually, I'd expect that from people who earn their living by writing, so it's hard to believe it is not the case here - so maybe this is indeed a case of trying to appeal to "the masses"? I'm just not sure whether that really works. I've rarely heard anyone applauding the "flirting" in ESO, calling it realistic or funny or well-written, but I've seen many, many complaints about people who really dislike it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Going back to that Altmer Scholar we are always talking about, his idea of flirting would probably be sharing his favorite books, or talking about some piece of trivia he learned. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious until he *really* knew the player character he is travelling with. When he first meets you? He definitely wouldn't be in a flirting mood.

Yes!

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, I wonder if the lack of different types of flirty behavior is because the dialogue is 'written for the masses' or just because they have a limited number of writers, and those writers like that particular trope?

In a way, this is already a problem: It's a trope, there's nothing realistic about it. There might be a few intellectually unlucky individuals who actually yell stupid phrases at strangers and believe that's a way to earn someone's positive attention - but normally, that's not the way it works in real life. Instead of resorting to a not exactly well-received trope, I'd suggest people who want to write fiction, in general, to really go outside, talk to different people, watch different people's interactions, or at least read a vast variety of literature (beyond trivial mass-produced stuff that's fastly hyped and fastly discarded again), to learn about how different people behave and how they talk. And then apply that accordingly to your own fictional world, in a way that makes sense for it. To write about the world, one needs experience. You know, actually, I'd expect that from people who earn their living by writing, so it's hard to believe it is not the case here - so maybe this is indeed a case of trying to appeal to "the masses"? I'm just not sure whether that really works. I've rarely heard anyone applauding the "flirting" in ESO, calling it realistic or funny or well-written, but I've seen many, many complaints about people who really dislike it.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Going back to that Altmer Scholar we are always talking about, his idea of flirting would probably be sharing his favorite books, or talking about some piece of trivia he learned. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious until he *really* knew the player character he is travelling with. When he first meets you? He definitely wouldn't be in a flirting mood.

Yes!

Completely agree about the whole 'learning about the world bit' if you want to be a writer!

As you said, even just reading a vast variety of literature, even in the same genre! can have a huge impact on learning about different people. Different writers will write different ways. You can just take a look at fanfiction to see it. These people will take a character that already has a predefined 'personality' and how they interpret it can be vastly different! So, by reading a lot of literature by different authors, you can learn how *they* see the world, and then be able to start seeing all the different ways people are, well, different from each other.

The thing about the 'appeal to the masses' is that it either appeals to the silent masses, those who like it and eat it up, but don't say anything about it, or this is what some study *says* appeal to the masses, but it actually doesn't.

Edit: realized I had more to add when I hit post.

But, this is a further reason why I, while I agree with the general sentiment of 'cool companion character', I don't really want them to be 'like' any existing character, because I feel it will come across as cookie cutter or a reskin of the existing companion. They might have different likes and dislikes, but if their personality is pretty much the same, it just gets boring. (especially as many of the comments I see about why people like Sharp is because of the sarcasm and 'snippy' dialogue. That can be fun when it is one or two companions out of a lot of companions, but we don't have enough companions, in my opinion, for that.)

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

But, this is a further reason why I, while I agree with the general sentiment of 'cool companion character', I don't really want them to be 'like' any existing character, because I feel it will come across as cookie cutter or a reskin of the existing companion. They might have different likes and dislikes, but if their personality is pretty much the same, it just gets boring. (especially as many of the comments I see about why people like Sharp is because of the sarcasm and 'snippy' dialogue. That can be fun when it is one or two companions out of a lot of companions, but we don't have enough companions, in my opinion, for that.)

I've seen people mentioning that Sharp uses "gamer lingo" - some find it funny, others see it as immersion-breaking. I can't judge that since in the German translation, his phases have not been translated to established gaming terms, but by their meaning, neutrally, so to say, that they fit ESO's world. So he would not yell "Skill issue!", but he'd say the opponent should have trained better beforehand (not sure about the exact wording, as I haven't played him much, I have to admit). So he comes across as a little brash sometimes, but you don't get the impression he "speaks like a gamer". Which I'm glad about, as I'd find that immersion-breaking. Characters talking in modern terms, gamer lingo, refering to memes all the time would exactly be what I do not want to see in a medieval fantasy game.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

But, this is a further reason why I, while I agree with the general sentiment of 'cool companion character', I don't really want them to be 'like' any existing character, because I feel it will come across as cookie cutter or a reskin of the existing companion. They might have different likes and dislikes, but if their personality is pretty much the same, it just gets boring. (especially as many of the comments I see about why people like Sharp is because of the sarcasm and 'snippy' dialogue. That can be fun when it is one or two companions out of a lot of companions, but we don't have enough companions, in my opinion, for that.)

I've seen people mentioning that Sharp uses "gamer lingo" - some find it funny, others see it as immersion-breaking. I can't judge that since in the German translation, his phases have not been translated to established gaming terms, but by their meaning, neutrally, so to say, that they fit ESO's world. So he would not yell "Skill issue!", but he'd say the opponent should have trained better beforehand (not sure about the exact wording, as I haven't played him much, I have to admit). So he comes across as a little brash sometimes, but you don't get the impression he "speaks like a gamer". Which I'm glad about, as I'd find that immersion-breaking. Characters talking in modern terms, gamer lingo, refering to memes all the time would exactly be what I do not want to see in a medieval fantasy game.

Yeah, I have barely used him at all, just now pulled him out to start leveling him, but that is my impression as well, that he uses the 'gamer lingo', which I agree is something I don't like.

I have never been fond of when games are inundated with references to other games, or the modern world. The occasional easter egg type thing? Fine. But not constantly doing it.

LootAllTheStuff

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

But, this is a further reason why I, while I agree with the general sentiment of 'cool companion character', I don't really want them to be 'like' any existing character, because I feel it will come across as cookie cutter or a reskin of the existing companion. They might have different likes and dislikes, but if their personality is pretty much the same, it just gets boring. (especially as many of the comments I see about why people like Sharp is because of the sarcasm and 'snippy' dialogue. That can be fun when it is one or two companions out of a lot of companions, but we don't have enough companions, in my opinion, for that.)

I've seen people mentioning that Sharp uses "gamer lingo" - some find it funny, others see it as immersion-breaking. I can't judge that since in the German translation, his phases have not been translated to established gaming terms, but by their meaning, neutrally, so to say, that they fit ESO's world. So he would not yell "Skill issue!", but he'd say the opponent should have trained better beforehand (not sure about the exact wording, as I haven't played him much, I have to admit). So he comes across as a little brash sometimes, but you don't get the impression he "speaks like a gamer". Which I'm glad about, as I'd find that immersion-breaking. Characters talking in modern terms, gamer lingo, refering to memes all the time would exactly be what I do not want to see in a medieval fantasy game.

Yeah, I have barely used him at all, just now pulled him out to start leveling him, but that is my impression as well, that he uses the 'gamer lingo', which I agree is something I don't like.

I have never been fond of when games are inundated with references to other games, or the modern world. The occasional easter egg type thing? Fine. But not constantly doing it.

I've used him a lot, and that's the only specific 'gamer lingo' example I can think of. His line about not keeping score, for example, could be a reference to Gimli/Legolas in the LoTR movies - and I'm sure similar behaviour has happened many times in real life. The classic for me is "Better luck next time - oh wait..." but *also* "Should have been more prepared".

One thing I did that I've found helpful was tweak the setting to reduce the frequency of companion comments. That limits the more immersion breaking ones.

And I definitely agree that companion flirting should not be possible until a certain rapport threshold has been reached and, even then, should be possible to permanently discouraged (like it works in the Dragon Age series, for example).

Of course, sometimes the flirty dialogue can be helpful IRL: the Skyrim classic "It's a beautiful day with you in it" certainly was a hit with my spouse!

Syldras

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Of course, sometimes the flirty dialogue can be helpful IRL: the Skyrim classic "It's a beautiful day with you in it" certainly was a hit with my spouse!

Wasn't that just a line everyone you befriended with (rapport over 1) said?

LootAllTheStuff

Syldras wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Of course, sometimes the flirty dialogue can be helpful IRL: the Skyrim classic "It's a beautiful day with you in it" certainly was a hit with my spouse!

Wasn't that just a line everyone you befriended with (rapport over 1) said?

Not sure what the actual trigger is, but certainly quite a few female NPCs that you run into (assuming you're not doing an evil or chaotic run). I've heard it many times in Falkreath and Whiterun, which are my usual trading spots.

Warhawke_80

Sharp is the Only Companion I don't want to stick a Dagger in...the rest of the companions are excruciating to be around especially Isobel and Tanlorin

Syldras

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Not sure what the actual trigger is, but certainly quite a few female NPCs that you run into (assuming you're not doing an evil or chaotic run). I've heard it many times in Falkreath and Whiterun, which are my usual trading spots.

I did a quick check on UESP: It's indeed rapport stage 1, which is just normal friendlyness. The marriage proposition dialogue doesn't trigger before stage 4.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Sharp is the Only Companion I don't want to stick a Dagger in...the rest of the companions are excruciating to be around especially Isobel and Tanlorin

To say it beforehand: Since I'm playing a translation, my experience may differ because dialogues differ a bit. I get along with most, I like Azandar and Zerith a lot, Isobel and Mirri amuse me somehow, Bastian and Sharp are okay, and I absolutely dislike Ember and Tanlorin.

Main reason I can't stand the last two is that they give me the feeling I'm herding 5-year-old kids (add to that Tanlorin's "flirty" behavior and it makes it even creepier). Although, to be fair, complaining about being bored all the time and asking ridiculous questions would be acceptable in actual 5-year-old kids, as they don't know any better. But if companions are supposed to be adults, then that behaviour is just silly, no matter how sheltered their upbringing might have been.

LootAllTheStuff

I haven't played Mirri as much as others, but I did enjoy her dialogue. I'm currently levelling up Isobel and, although she can be a bit 'gushy' at times - her comments about Lyris Titanborn were a bit OTT/TMI; I'd rank her with Bastiaan as 'mostly ok with some irritating moments'. I'm not sure if I'll get around to any of the others, but that's mostly because if I get to a point where things seem to be working ok I generally don't like making changes.

Warhawke_80

Syldras wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Not sure what the actual trigger is, but certainly quite a few female NPCs that you run into (assuming you're not doing an evil or chaotic run). I've heard it many times in Falkreath and Whiterun, which are my usual trading spots.

I did a quick check on UESP: It's indeed rapport stage 1, which is just normal friendlyness. The marriage proposition dialogue doesn't trigger before stage 4.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Sharp is the Only Companion I don't want to stick a Dagger in...the rest of the companions are excruciating to be around especially Isobel and Tanlorin

To say it beforehand: Since I'm playing a translation, my experience may differ because dialogues differ a bit. I get along with most, I like Azandar and Zerith a lot, Isobel and Mirri amuse me somehow, Bastian and Sharp are okay, and I absolutely dislike Ember and Tanlorin.

Main reason I can't stand the last two is that they give me the feeling I'm herding 5-year-old kids (add to that Tanlorin's "flirty" behavior and it makes it even creepier). Although, to be fair, complaining about being bored all the time and asking ridiculous questions would be acceptable in actual 5-year-old kids, as they don't know any better. But if companions are supposed to be adults, then that behaviour is just silly, no matter how sheltered their upbringing might have been.

Absolutely agree with your take! Tanlorin's flirty behavior layered on top of that childlike demeanor is downright unsettling—it’s like a bizarre mix of naivety and forced charm that just doesn’t land right. It’s creepy because it feels so incongruous, like an adult playacting as a kid with an awkward flirtatious edge. The constant boredom complaints and absurd questions only amplify the immaturity, making it impossible to take them seriously as companions. Even if their sheltered upbringing is the excuse, it doesn’t justify the sheer lack of depth or self-awareness. It’s like they’re stuck in a perpetual toddler mindset, which is jarring for characters meant to be adults. Honestly, it makes every interaction feel like you’re babysitting someone who’s trying way too hard to be coy, and that’s a vibe that’s hard to shake off!

The whole experience makes me want to have the ability to Unfriend a companion .

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Not sure what the actual trigger is, but certainly quite a few female NPCs that you run into (assuming you're not doing an evil or chaotic run). I've heard it many times in Falkreath and Whiterun, which are my usual trading spots.

I did a quick check on UESP: It's indeed rapport stage 1, which is just normal friendlyness. The marriage proposition dialogue doesn't trigger before stage 4.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Sharp is the Only Companion I don't want to stick a Dagger in...the rest of the companions are excruciating to be around especially Isobel and Tanlorin

To say it beforehand: Since I'm playing a translation, my experience may differ because dialogues differ a bit. I get along with most, I like Azandar and Zerith a lot, Isobel and Mirri amuse me somehow, Bastian and Sharp are okay, and I absolutely dislike Ember and Tanlorin.

Main reason I can't stand the last two is that they give me the feeling I'm herding 5-year-old kids (add to that Tanlorin's "flirty" behavior and it makes it even creepier). Although, to be fair, complaining about being bored all the time and asking ridiculous questions would be acceptable in actual 5-year-old kids, as they don't know any better. But if companions are supposed to be adults, then that behaviour is just silly, no matter how sheltered their upbringing might have been.

I play the english versions, and I guess that my interpretations tend to be different from the others.

For instance, before Zerith, I liked Bastian and Ember. Ember, yeah, she seemed young, but 'peppy' (and looking at her dialogue, I realize I haven't gotten most of her idling dialogue :P). I didn't mind Mirri, and Isobel was pretty much my least liked one, but I still didn't really mind her.

I haven't really travelled With Azandar or Sharp enough to get a good feel for them, but they also don't really seem to trigger any of my 'dislikes'.

Tanlorin? Pretty much everything they do grates on my nerves.

Syldras

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with your take! Tanlorin's flirty behavior layered on top of that childlike demeanor is downright unsettling—it’s like a bizarre mix of naivety and forced charm that just doesn’t land right. It’s creepy because it feels so incongruous, like an adult playacting as a kid with an awkward flirtatious edge. The constant boredom complaints and absurd questions only amplify the immaturity, making it impossible to take them seriously as companions. Even if their sheltered upbringing is the excuse, it doesn’t justify the sheer lack of depth or self-awareness. It’s like they’re stuck in a perpetual toddler mindset, which is jarring for characters meant to be adults. Honestly, it makes every interaction feel like you’re babysitting someone who’s trying way too hard to be coy, and that’s a vibe that’s hard to shake off!

The whole experience makes me want to have the ability to Unfriend a companion .

I've been wondering if that's just another case of writing lacking subtlety and npc characterization being over the top and excessively clichéd.

The thing is: I wouldn't have a problem with a younger, apprentice-type companion at all. But I'd expect them to have the basic knowledge and mind of an adult. They could ask me specific questions depending on their background: A young alchemist could ask me about the alchemical properties of a plant, an enchanter could ask about some magical theory, a knight could ask if I could demonstrate a fighting technique or whether we can train together later. But I don't want to hear extremely basic, child-level questions.

If a child, an actual child, asked me while harvesting silk (or flax, or cotton), if clothing is made from that, I would be friendly and explain it. If an adult asks me that, I'd only wonder in disbelief whether that person has been hit on the head too often.

It's too much! It's not necessary to make characters overly dumb to emphasize that they're young and inexperienced. But somehow ZOS doesn't seem to believe that the audience gets it otherwise.

spartaxoxo

Tanlorin strikes me more as someone who's energetic and silly rather than someone who's genuinely child like. For example, I don't think when they asks if clothing is made from cloth that they're genuinely asking. I took it as "wow, it's so weird to imagine clothing comes from that."

Basically, how a young adult fresh out of high school or maybe freshman in college might marvel at things.

I still find them annoying because of excessive modern speaking though.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

. I took it as "wow, it's so weird to imagine clothing comes from that."

Not sure if that's cultural difference, but if a kid above 12 (let alone an adult), would say that I'd still be bewildered. Topics like how common things are made are already adressed in tv shows for pre-schoolers here. At age 15 we were discussing Nietzsche, not being amazed by a piece of raw cotton.

I'm not saying what people are supposed to do or be interested in at which age, as everyone has to know that for themselves. I'm just saying that in my country you're already more than familiar with common material topics when you're getting into your teens. 14-16 is usually the age you're getting into the immaterial, with topics like philosophy here. So having a character who's supposed to be an adult make these, well, mundane comments, just seems weird, as it doesn't fit our cultural experiences.

To add: This game being more or less medieval fantasy makes it even more jarring. It's not like this is a highly technologized society where people live in huge cities and have no clue anymore where their food and clothes come from. It should be much more common in that world to have seen raw materials already at an early age, compared to people nowadays.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

It should be much more common in that world to have seen raw materials already at an early age, compared to people nowadays.

I mean you learn the basics here too. But there's a fairly big difference between seeing it in person and reading it in a book.

Then again, a difference between modern city people disconnected from their food visiting a farm vs a medieval fantasy, as you've noted. So I guess the disconnect with Tan probably should be less than a modern person, now that you mention that.

BretonMage

Tbf though, Tanlorin grew up in Alinor, in a highly stratified society. It's not unreasonable that they might never have seen how clothes are made.

In any case, I just saw it as the writers emphasising how enthusiastic they are. Similar to when the player crafts a furnishing, and they gush over it. They just gush over everything. It's cute, but a bit much.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I mean you learn the basics here too. But there's a fairly big difference between seeing it in person and reading it in a book.

Then again, a difference between modern city people disconnected from their food visiting a farm vs a medieval fantasy, as you've noted. So I guess the disconnect with Tan probably should be less than a modern person, now that you mention that.

That's true, but don't people visit the countryside in their freetime, especially if they have kids? I've grown up in a city of 4 million people, but still I've seen cows, horses and geese before my 1st day of school, and until age 9 I could identify a few dozen different endemic plants. I got my own plant pots on our balcony where I would try to cultivate a few from seeds I collected.

But anyway, in Tamriel it just seems weird that someone would have not seen common materials that basically grow everywhere (and even if you'd never leave town, you'd probably see them at a market or inside a store) until adulthood. Especially if said person is supposed to be a socially experienced, far-travelled spy.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I mean you learn the basics here too. But there's a fairly big difference between seeing it in person and reading it in a book.

Then again, a difference between modern city people disconnected from their food visiting a farm vs a medieval fantasy, as you've noted. So I guess the disconnect with Tan probably should be less than a modern person, now that you mention that.

That's true, but don't people visit the countryside in their freetime, especially if they have kids? I've grown up in a city of 4 million people, but still I've seen cows, horses and geese before my 1st day of school, and until age 9 I could identify a few dozen different endemic plants. I got my own plant pots on our balcony where I would try to cultivate a few from seeds I collected.

But anyway, in Tamriel it just seems weird that someone would have not seen common materials that basically grow everywhere (and even if you'd never leave town, you'd probably see them at a market or inside a store) until adulthood. Especially if said person is supposed to be a socially experienced, far-travelled spy.

I think that is what makes their comments so weird for me.

Sure, I can see it if something isn't 'common' such as knowing where silk comes from and the process of it (especially in a culture that doesn't have access to the internet), but it seems like most of the plant based materials are fairly common, so why wouldn't Tan know that this plant is where the material comes from? They might not know the process by which it is turned into cloth, but they should at least recognize that a plant called 'ancestor silk' has some correlation to the clothing material that is 'ancestor silk'.

However, to answer your question, to my knowledge, in the US, in big cities? No, it isn't common for people to visit the country side, especially with regards to actually identifying things. People with an interest in such things might look things up on the internet, and there are likely programs that DO allow kids to visit farms, but for most kids who don't have an interest in it, it just goes in one ear and out the other. Especially with regards to crops and how it goes from crop to product.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I think that is what makes their comments so weird for me.
Sure, I can see it if something isn't 'common' such as knowing where silk comes from and the process of it (especially in a culture that doesn't have access to the internet), but it seems like most of the plant based materials are fairly common, so why wouldn't Tan know that this plant is where the material comes from? They might not know the process by which it is turned into cloth, but they should at least recognize that a plant called 'ancestor silk' has some correlation to the clothing material that is 'ancestor silk'.

The characterization somehow seems inconsistent. A spy or agent who travels a lot and is supposed to be perceptive not knowing how a stupid jute plant looks like makes as much sense as a travelling merchant who's never seen a horse cart. Let alone that, when we walk from Vulkhel Guard to the spot where we find Tanlorin,... I mean, how many clothing material sources do we walk past on that route? 4, 6, 10? Often more or less directly next to the road.

That one line about apologizing to the tree for harvesting wood makes no sense either, considering we never actually cut down a tree, but only collect deadwood (and it also makes me wonder whether the first concept for Tanlorin was a Bosmer - which might also explain the cheerful character traits, which are a bit of a Bosmer cliché).

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

However, to answer your question, to my knowledge, in the US, in big cities? No, it isn't common for people to visit the country side, especially with regards to actually identifying things. People with an interest in such things might look things up on the internet, and there are likely programs that DO allow kids to visit farms, but for most kids who don't have an interest in it, it just goes in one ear and out the other. Especially with regards to crops and how it goes from crop to product.

That's a pity. I think it's interesting to learn about these topics, and maybe it also helps people valueing things more if they know what it takes to make them. In my country we actually have regular lessons in elementary school; I'm not even sure how their name would translate to English... Anyway, they're just about understanding the world, the region and the environment. We visited museums, farms, factories, or just went hiking and learned about plants and animals we saw, basic things. The best excursions I remember were, except for different museum visits (and the planetarium - how would I forget it?!), being shown around the forest by a forester, and visiting an active quarry. The worst one was exploring a sewage plant That was horrendous.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I think that is what makes their comments so weird for me.
Sure, I can see it if something isn't 'common' such as knowing where silk comes from and the process of it (especially in a culture that doesn't have access to the internet), but it seems like most of the plant based materials are fairly common, so why wouldn't Tan know that this plant is where the material comes from? They might not know the process by which it is turned into cloth, but they should at least recognize that a plant called 'ancestor silk' has some correlation to the clothing material that is 'ancestor silk'.

The characterization somehow seems inconsistent. A spy or agent who travels a lot and is supposed to be perceptive not knowing how a stupid jute plant looks like makes as much sense as a travelling merchant who's never seen a horse cart. Let alone that, when we walk from Vulkhel Guard to the spot where we find Tanlorin,... I mean, how many clothing material sources do we walk past on that route? 4, 6, 10? Often more or less directly next to the road.

That one line about apologizing to the tree for harvesting wood makes no sense either, considering we never actually cut down a tree, but only collect deadwood (and it also makes me wonder whether the first concept for Tanlorin was a Bosmer - which might also explain the cheerful character traits, which are a bit of a Bosmer cliché).

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

However, to answer your question, to my knowledge, in the US, in big cities? No, it isn't common for people to visit the country side, especially with regards to actually identifying things. People with an interest in such things might look things up on the internet, and there are likely programs that DO allow kids to visit farms, but for most kids who don't have an interest in it, it just goes in one ear and out the other. Especially with regards to crops and how it goes from crop to product.

That's a pity. I think it's interesting to learn about these topics, and maybe it also helps people valueing things more if they know what it takes to make them. In my country we actually have regular lessons in elementary school; I'm not even sure how their name would translate to English... Anyway, they're just about understanding the world, the region and the environment. We visited museums, farms, factories, or just went hiking and learned about plants and animals we saw, basic things. The best excursions I remember were, except for different museum visits (and the planetarium - how would I forget it?!), being shown around the forest by a forester, and visiting an active quarry. The worst one was exploring a sewage plant That was horrendous.

Yeah, as I said, I haven't used Tan, so I haven't encountered those lines yet, but those types of things do sort of annoy me.

I can sort of see where they might be coming from, as I think that things like ancestor silk is meant to be rare (since it is the highest level crafting material), but still, the sheer amount of plants would sort of negate the idea that someone who is meant to have travelled even semi extensively would not know what they are and what they are used for (especially since Tan is interested in Alchemy. Even though cloth plants are used in alchemy, you would think Tan would have learned 'okay, these plants are useful but NOT for alchemy'.)

You know, Tan might have made more sense as a bosmer than an Altmer.

Yeah, as I said, I don't know how much that is true, as I went through the education system 20+ years ago, and... I grew up rural :P So, yeah, while my family wasn't involved in farming as in owning cattle, everyone around does, and my family helped them work their cattle, so I knew what was what. It also helped that I also loved learning so I would read about things like where various materials came from. I might not know the exact processes, and it can be fascinating to watch (I miss How its Made), and there are definitely things I go 'oh, so that is where it comes from!' most things, especially relatively common stuff, I know.

We had some of those types of classes, though they were more focused on farming and raising livestock (rural school). Sincei t was rural, it also didn't have the money to go on a lot of excursions like that (plus, most of those types of things were too far away to bus a lot of kids). I haven't been to an active quarry, but I do own an inactive one (they hit a spring and it filled up faster than they could pump it out :P So, now it is a swimming hole) I do remember my science teacher and another student and I went to a science fair (I think we were the only ones who could make it), and it was fun. What I remember most is coming home, it was nice, sun was setting, pretty, and we just go zipping past the exit for the school. Fortunately there was a second exit we could take )

I wonder if they were going for 'upper crust sheltered' for Tan? Trying to make it seem as if this is the first time they were ever able to 'explore' the world, but that doesn't fit in with their backstory of being a spy and all their 'conquests'. So, it does sort of make me wonder if there were maybe two different characters or if someone forgot or what?

Or, it could just be that Tan is meant to come across as perky and upbeat, and I just hate perky and upbeat enough that I misinterpret their lines. I know I interpret other companions' lines differently than I see a lot of people do. (I notice a lot of them interpret some of them as snarky or condescending, but I don't)

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I mean you learn the basics here too. But there's a fairly big difference between seeing it in person and reading it in a book.

Then again, a difference between modern city people disconnected from their food visiting a farm vs a medieval fantasy, as you've noted. So I guess the disconnect with Tan probably should be less than a modern person, now that you mention that.

That's true, but don't people visit the countryside in their freetime, especially if they have kids? I've grown up in a city of 4 million people, but still I've seen cows, horses and geese before my 1st day of school, and until age 9 I could identify a few dozen different endemic plants. I got my own plant pots on our balcony where I would try to cultivate a few from seeds I collected.

But anyway, in Tamriel it just seems weird that someone would have not seen common materials that basically grow everywhere (and even if you'd never leave town, you'd probably see them at a market or inside a store) until adulthood. Especially if said person is supposed to be a socially experienced, far-travelled spy.

No. We didn't see any of this stuff in person as a kid, except the petting zoo where I got to see a goat and some chickens. I wouldn't be able to identify the common plants in my area either. We weren't taught that sort of thing. We learned stuff like there are different climate zones and our State tree and the like. It wasn't completely nothing. But nobody here who isn't specifically studying that stuff actually knows it. There are programs kids can join if they are interested in learning more. I've never been to a quarry.

And given that Tanlorin didn't like studying or reading, I honestly don't think they'd know it more than that either tbh. Tanlorin is a spy but they're doing things like wining and bedding nobles and spying on meetings. They seem to have some knowledge of alchemy and enjoy it but even that seems to pale in comparison to the knowledge the others of the ring have even in that.

To me Tanlorin strikes me as having some rudimentary book knowledge about things but also not much field knowledge.

M0ntie

UGH Sharp as Night is one of the companions I wont use because he is really annoying.
I like the dialog of Bastian, Ember, Tanlorin and Zerith-var.
I won't use Miri, Azandar or Sharp because of how annoying and/or negative they are.

Syldras

But the thing is that these plants, jute for example, aren't rare. They're everywhere in Tamriel. One doesn't have to be an expert to have seen one. In real life I'd expect everyone to have seen a dandelion, no matter if that person is a botanist, an astronaut, a car mechanic or a lawyer. Even if you're not interested much in it, you would still have seen one at some point. So it's weird if a character isn't familiar with a plant that's so common in Tamriel, you can barely walk 1 minute without coming across half a dozen of them.

I'd just wish that the world the stories take place in would be considered more when writing characters. I've seen dialogue bits over the years where the writers seemed to have been thinking about the real world while writing, and not about how common or uncommon something is in Tamriel. Actually there was even something like that in Zerith's questline, which I found really well-written, mostly. But I can't remember right now what it was (maybe it will come back to my mind later).

So as a made-up example: In the real world, someone using magic (the way it's shown in fantasy fiction, not tricks on stage) would be a miracle. In Tamriel, it's a normal, everyday thing. Or, a real world person seeing the ghost of an ancestor would be something highly unusual and worth being excited or unsettled about. But if wouldn't make sense for a Dunmer to be unsettled about it because for Dunmer culture, it's completely normal (even if it's not shown in the games very often, according to lore it's completely normal to talk to the spirits of family members, to discuss important decisions with them, etc - it's a pity actually that it's background lore, but almost never we actually see it!).