No Mag Sorc nerfs this patch? Umm ok?

xylena_lazarow · March 9

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, the OP of this thread also abuses shield on a bash build, which is ironically just as broken in a 1v1 as magsorc lol.

MagSorc isn't broken 1v1, it's broken in open world because of the endless ranged nuke spam combined with endless disengage/reengage shenanigans. Bash Sorc is 1v1 cheese but doesn't scale nearly as well 1vX/OW, since it obviously lacks the constant ranged nuke barrage that makes MagSorc a problem, like any other melee StamSorc.

StaticWave · March 9

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong, I think Sorc (more specifically shield Sorc) is currently overperforming. I am an advocate for Sorc nerfs. I’m sure people can see that from my past nerf threads.

Now, the problem I have with threads like this is while they’re pointing out the obvious issue of the class, they’re also trying to turn non-issues into issues.

Cfrag has never been an issue to deal with, and Curse just got nerfed by being blockable. Their offensive rotation has not changed for 7 years and will hopefully stay the same for years to come. Sure, Cfrag and Curse may hit harder than they used to, but if you’ve never had a problem dealing with this combo, then you won’t have any problem dealing with them now. All it takes is building a bit tankier and you won’t notice anything.

I’ll use myself as an example. Before U40, my stamsorc had around 25-26k resists back bar and stage 3 vamp in 3 dmg CPs. I was able to shrug off most classes’ damage. Magsorcs were doing at best 9k crit frags to me. In fact, one could make the same argument that I was being too survivable while being nearly full damage. Post U40, magsorcs started doing 11-12k crit frags to me. You know what I did? I simply built tankier and those damage values returned to pre - U40. Yes, I lost some damage in the process to gain more survivability, but it was healthier for the game. There’s actual trade offs I had to make to survive.

They could literally just do the same for magsorc. ZOS never touched any part of my offensive stats, yet I had to build tankier to survive and ended up losing damage in the process. Instead of trying to ask for nerfs to its offense, why not just nerf its defense some more so it actually has to build more defense to survive?

Btw, the OP of this thread also abuses shield on a bash build, which is ironically just as broken in a 1v1 as magsorc lol.

I think this is the point. Op is suggesting Ward is too strong because it gets stronger as magicka goes up. Sorcs get to build into damage and survivability at the same time.

Also, I see far too many people on here argue against the messenger and not the message. We should shy away from that and debate the merits of an argument... No matter who it comes from.

You used to have to be more of a glass cannon to pull off insane damage from 40m. Now, you become tankier the stronger you get. It's absurd. Because of this and other reasons i do think that ranged damage should go down linearly based on distance. This would include snipe and Jesus beam and anything else ranged. The logic is very simple. The further you are from me, the less risk you are taking, so you shouldn't get as much of a reward. I think this should apply to all ranged damage.

40m away you should get maybe 60% of your damage scaling up as you get closer to melee. I think this would do a lot for balance in all pvp.

I don’t really have a problem with ranged classes doing damage. I think the main issue between range and melee specs is that ranged specs have basically zero risk.

It makes total sense for melee specs to be tanky because they have to close the gap to do damage, which requires surviving while crossing that gap. Meanwhile, ranged players have no risk while doing damage from afar , and are still tanky even in melee range lol.

I’m not suggesting that they remove ranged builds’ capability to defend themselves. I’m simply saying that ranged specs shouldn’t behave like a magsorc or a ranged plar that are almost impossible to kill even in melee range, but somewhat like a bowsorc - really fast and slippery, yet squishy enough to be killed if you can close that distance.

StaticWave · March 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Btw, the OP of this thread also abuses shield on a bash build, which is ironically just as broken in a 1v1 as magsorc lol.

MagSorc isn't broken 1v1, it's broken in open world because of the endless ranged nuke spam combined with endless disengage/reengage shenanigans. Bash Sorc is 1v1 cheese but doesn't scale nearly as well 1vX/OW, since it obviously lacks the constant ranged nuke barrage that makes MagSorc a problem, like any other melee StamSorc.

Well this is a a slippery slope argument imo because any class can do the same thing magsorc does. I'm AD and I regularly fight a group of organized EP gankers in a guild called "Lord of the Shafts". Most of them are NBs, but a few of them do run off meta gank classes like Necro/Templar. What I've noticed is that while those specific players don't have Cloak to disengage, they have stage 4 vamp and higher movement speed. This allows them to still disengage from a gank at will because if they stay far away enough, they can use their higher movement speed to sprint until they enter stealth. Of course it requires more effort and skill than just playing gankblades or Sorc, but it's still effective nonetheless. So do we just nerf vamp 4 and movement speed too then?

As for the bash build, the OP always zergs me down in Cyrodiil and it's almost impossible to escape him because he runs max movement speed with Streak. In fact, he just did that yesterday lol. What's annoying about his playstyle is that he always stands back and watches me 1vX for 10-20s, then randomly jumps in to zerg me. I don't know if it's amusing to him or not, but I do know that his build is very difficult to kill while doing higher sustained DPS. It's a far bigger problem for me to deal with than magsorc imo.

StaticWave · March 10

Here's a clip showing just how dangerous a bashsorc can be in Cyrodiil, featuring the OP of this thread on that bash build:

https://youtu.be/Xfak4sULpr0

From 0:00 to 0:26 you can see that I was fighting a NB, a stamsorc, and a magsorc. The OP was standing in the corner watching my 1v3. Did I have any problems dealing with them? No, not at all. From 0:30 onwards, he ran towards me and started bashing my butt. At 0:46, you could literally see the pressure he was putting on me. His bash build alone was doing as much pressure as those 3 people I was fighting at the start of the video lol.

So IDK, I think both specs are problematic and need to be addressed. Magsorc needs to be less tanky, and bashsorcs needs to get nerfed someway or another. I've fought bashsorcs with 50k resists and 40k+ HP WITH WARD that somehow still do 4k+ DPS through my 37k physical resistances AND 3.7k crit resistance. It literally makes zero sense that this specific spec doesn't get addressed lol.

NoSoup · March 10

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Mag Sorc hits harder than any other class in the game right now other than Arterial Burst NB ganker. Except Mag Sorc has the best survivability in the game. I literally have to adjust my build just to deal with Mag Sorcs.

Mag Blade? No problem. DoT DK? No problem. Acuity Warden with Northern Storm? No problem I can handle it.

Mag Sorc is on another level.

Imagine 50-60k max magicka + 4-5k wd/sd for an effective 9-10k power on a +66% damage Crystal Frags proc with 80%+ crit damage and 18k+ pen that is cast every 4 seconds on average. Now add Curse, Shocking Soul, Overload/DB, etc. You're dead. You never had a chance.

So where are the nerfs ZOS?

While I don't deny that a well built sorc can be a real PITA with frags I'm calling out the numbers used here. Please show me a single build that has 50-60k max magica while maintaining 5k wp/sp, 80% crit damage and 18k penetration. Some exagerations used here.

I personally find the templar's beam far more offensive/over the top than anything in the sorc's kit (though I'm guilty of using it on my templar). A well built Arcanist is probably worse to deal with than a mag sorc and I'd even go as far as to say the vampire/bleed stam sorcs are a bigger pain in the butt than magsorc.

MasterSpatula · March 10

God, I wish I lived in y'all's world.

MJallday · March 10

NoSoup wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Mag Sorc hits harder than any other class in the game right now other than Arterial Burst NB ganker. Except Mag Sorc has the best survivability in the game. I literally have to adjust my build just to deal with Mag Sorcs.

Mag Blade? No problem. DoT DK? No problem. Acuity Warden with Northern Storm? No problem I can handle it.

Mag Sorc is on another level.

Imagine 50-60k max magicka + 4-5k wd/sd for an effective 9-10k power on a +66% damage Crystal Frags proc with 80%+ crit damage and 18k+ pen that is cast every 4 seconds on average. Now add Curse, Shocking Soul, Overload/DB, etc. You're dead. You never had a chance.

So where are the nerfs ZOS?

While I don't deny that a well built sorc can be a real PITA with frags I'm calling out the numbers used here. Please show me a single build that has 50-60k max magica while maintaining 5k wp/sp, 80% crit damage and 18k penetration. Some exagerations used here.

I personally find the templar's beam far more offensive/over the top than anything in the sorc's kit (though I'm guilty of using it on my templar). A well built Arcanist is probably worse to deal with than a mag sorc and I'd even go as far as to say the vampire/bleed stam sorcs are a bigger pain in the butt than magsorc.

tbf though the templar has literally nothing else. take the beam away/nerf it and you might as well delete the class (for dps) anyway

IncultaWolf · March 10

StaticWave wrote: »

Here's a clip showing just how dangerous a bashsorc can be in Cyrodiil, featuring the OP of this thread on that bash build:

https://youtu.be/Xfak4sULpr0

From 0:00 to 0:26 you can see that I was fighting a NB, a stamsorc, and a magsorc. The OP was standing in the corner watching my 1v3. Did I have any problems dealing with them? No, not at all. From 0:30 onwards, he ran towards me and started bashing my butt. At 0:46, you could literally see the pressure he was putting on me. His bash build alone was doing as much pressure as those 3 people I was fighting at the start of the video lol.

So IDK, I think both specs are problematic and need to be addressed. Magsorc needs to be less tanky, and bashsorcs needs to get nerfed someway or another. I've fought bashsorcs with 50k resists and 40k+ HP WITH WARD that somehow still do 4k+ DPS through my 37k physical resistances AND 3.7k crit resistance. It literally makes zero sense that this specific spec doesn't get addressed lol.

As much as I love playing a bash build on my necro, I feel like that playstyle in general will get the nerf hammer eventually. It's still very niche at the moment, but players who know how to bash weave abilities like power slam and keybind bash to mousewheel are definitely some of the toughest things to fight.

xylena_lazarow · March 10

StaticWave wrote: »

Well this is a a slippery slope argument imo because any class can do the same thing magsorc does.

No slope. They can on paper, not in practice. Nobody can consistently match MagSorc in ranged damage output. Nobody can indefinitely spam teleports like MagSorc. Vamp Mist is not real, Arc Portal is not real, BowBlades are a meme, RangePlar is seldom seen 1v1 cheese (and beams from random healers can be just as obnoxious).

StaticWave wrote: »

As for the bash build, the OP always zergs me down in Cyrodiil and it's almost impossible to escape him because he runs max movement speed with Streak.

Less to do with bashing, more to do with you being zerged down by spammable teleports. At least the BashSorc chasing me can't actually touch me until she gets up close, unlike the 678 million aim assisted staff LAs, Curses, Shocking Souls, Overloads, frags, Meteors, etc being fired from a player that otherwise could never catch me.

FWIW the OP tends to avoid me, we've both beaten each other 1v1 (no shame in cheesing LoS in a cheese Cyro 1v1), she knows I'll zerg her if she zergs me, and she knows that BashSorc doesn't scale 1vX at all. I'd rather deal with a high level BashSorc than deal with being constantly shot by a mid MagSorc that I can't even engage.

StaticWave · March 10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Well this is a a slippery slope argument imo because any class can do the same thing magsorc does.

No slope. They can on paper, not in practice. Nobody can consistently match MagSorc in ranged damage output. Nobody can indefinitely spam teleports like MagSorc. Vamp Mist is not real, Arc Portal is not real, BowBlades are a meme, RangePlar is seldom seen 1v1 cheese (and beams from random healers can be just as obnoxious).

StaticWave wrote: »

As for the bash build, the OP always zergs me down in Cyrodiil and it's almost impossible to escape him because he runs max movement speed with Streak.

Less to do with bashing, more to do with you being zerged down by spammable teleports. At least the BashSorc chasing me can't actually touch me until she gets up close, unlike the 678 million aim assisted staff LAs, Curses, Shocking Souls, Overloads, frags, Meteors, etc being fired from a player that otherwise could never catch me.

FWIW the OP tends to avoid me, we've both beaten each other 1v1 (no shame in cheesing LoS in a cheese Cyro 1v1), she knows I'll zerg her if she zergs me, and she knows that BashSorc doesn't scale 1vX at all. I'd rather deal with a high level BashSorc than deal with being constantly shot by a mid MagSorc that I can't even engage.

Not it definitely has to do with bashing lol. Spammable teleports won’t kill me, but a 4k sustained DPS will. No magsorc in Cyro is doing 4k+ DPS to me, nor do they drain my stam twice every second if I attempt to block their dmg.

Our experiences differ then. I genuinely have no issues with Xv1 magsorcs, and if I do, it definitely has to do with their defense and not offense.

xylena_lazarow · March 10

StaticWave wrote: »

Our experiences differ then. I genuinely have no issues with Xv1 magsorcs, and if I do, it definitely has to do with their defense and not offense.

We can chalk that up to different builds/playstyles/etc. Problem is, if you think that BashSorc is a problem, there's now only one common thread amongst Sorc complaints: Streak (yeah the other morph too, I've seen OP combo Ball Lightning and Rune Cage so she can land her bash spam whether you're stunned or mid roll). No other bash class is a threat because they aren't hitting anyone who moves, they shield charge, land a couple bashes, then do nothing.

In other words, to critique BashSorc is to advocate for a Sorc teleport nerf. I know you argue face tanking but I argue that's as much a generic power creep problem as a (post-nerf) Ward problem, pretty sure one of the other posters here had success on a Wardless MagSorc by running back bar SnB block healing, the teleport is still the only common thread.

Then again, I've also talked to players who had success on Streakless MagSorc, and (in part due to your arguments for preserving Streak) I do keep thinking it's the max range machine gun that's the primary issue with Sorc in the meta... tough one for the devs.

IncultaWolf · April 14

*removed the heal from hardened ward. Sorc is now balanced.

Renato90085 · April 14

just feel, maybe they nerf no pet sorc(pvp) and buff pet sorc(pve) same time in passive

Thumbless_Bot · April 14

Are the patch notes out? Where are you seeing this about sorc?

ForumBully · April 14

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Are the patch notes out? Where are you seeing this about sorc?

It's an old post

Thumbless_Bot · April 14

Inculta said that at noon todaym

Demalb16_ESO · April 14

What is the point to nerf or buff classes before a massive change? None. There is no point in doing patches to ballance a system you are about to retire. Let's hope the changes they are doing give a good slid base to revitalize PVP. AFTER you have that base you can think about patches for ballance. I'ts like repairing the engine of a car when you are about to change that engine....
In a few month with multiclassin you won't even be able to define what a magsorc is

banshee011 · April 14

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Are the patch notes out? Where are you seeing this about sorc?

There was a datamine that came out that said the heal was being removed from the shield. There's a lot of youtube videos talking about it. I guess we'll see when the patch notes come out.

Eldartar · April 14

Oh, I see we're in the "Nerf Magsorc" season again . . 10+ years and going strong.

Thumbless_Bot · April 14

banshee011 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Are the patch notes out? Where are you seeing this about sorc?

There was a datamine that came out that said the heal was being removed from the shield. There's a lot of youtube videos talking about it. I guess we'll see when the patch notes come out.

Thanks. I knew the rumors were out there but I try not to pay attention to those. I was hoping the natch potes were out and I just couldn't see them.

Navaac223 · April 14

Eldartar wrote: »

Oh, I see we're in the "Nerf Magsorc" season again . . 10+ years and going strong.

Yep, as long as hardened ward is making magicka stacking sorcs unkillable while having 18k tooltips on spammables, there will be people asking for a nerf.
Before ward got buffed, sorc was just fine (ok maybe a bit weaker than the other classes, but still in a respectable spot). So yeah, before that there might have been a couple of people begging for sorc nerfs on the forums after getting destroyed by a good magsorc but claiming that sorc doesn't need a nerf today is delusional at this point

katorga · April 14

Looks like over nerfs to sorc and buffs to Warden and NB this patch.

Twohothardware · April 14

Magsorc caught that nerf bat.

ADarklore · April 14

Not allowing Warden bear to benefit from Daedric Prey... that's not very nice ZOS. Removing the recovery, also not nice.

ForumBully · April 14

ADarklore wrote: »

Not allowing Warden bear to benefit from Daedric Prey... that's not very nice ZOS. Removing the recovery, also not nice.

That could have been fun with the bear...perhaps too much fun though.

ADarklore · April 14

ForumBully wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Not allowing Warden bear to benefit from Daedric Prey... that's not very nice ZOS. Removing the recovery, also not nice.

That could have been fun with the bear...perhaps too much fun though.

I know... and when I read it I thought, "ZOS was reading my post and saw my idea".

I can understand their concerns though, and obviously their internal testing showed some potential pain points. I'm also glad that it put the kabosh on what some people were claiming that ZOS wouldn't allow ALL class lines to be available for subclassing- I still don't know where they got that idea. I mean, if worse comes to worse, it seems like they could do a "skill does 40% less damage when subclassed" kind of nerfing instead of nerfing the base class entirely.

NxJoeyD · May 30

Listen, as someone who mains Mag Sorc I’m calling some nonsense here.

Right now Mag Sorc’s are somewhat of a one trick pony, for PvP at least, Mag Sorc’s claim to fame now are heavy attack crits. Go look at some of the “best mag Sorc build” tutorials and see just how many all focus on heavy attack crits, with or without pets.

I’m a Mag Sorc running NO pets, and I can say it’s super challenging in PvP, I do well but our class is FAR from OP or meta. It takes some work to either earn kill shots or hold objectives in PvP. We have a descent damage DoT (Curse) and one real heavy burst damage Class ability (Frags); the rest is redundant utility. We don’t have any good AoE save for the Atronach and even that’s mid compared to other classes, and it’s a high cost Ult.

Further, one of the skills the OP mentions is a scribed which just about any class can do. Sorcs mainly run only a few class skills: Ward, Streak, Curse, & Frag. Out of 3 skill trees there’s maybe 4 or 5 commonly used skills; the rest are largely ignored. Nobody runs Splash, Bound, Prison, Exhange, Mines, etc. Form is more niche and only if one doesn’t have a passive access to Resolve, which most do, so no need to take up a whole slot just for that one buff.

Our Ults are lackluster compared to what’s out there. Northern Storm provides buffs and high damage and as an area AOE follows the player and acts as passive crowd control. Corrosive Armor bypasses all player resistances. Compared to what other classes have Sorcs are mid at best. We typically get our strength from running world skills.

Sorcs aren’t an execute class we’re a cheerleader class. Even with one of the few abilities we can use to actually get a “kill shot” (Wrath), people want to nerf; and I can’t tell you how much whining I hear about Streak, even though other classes have burst stuns that are MUCH easier to follow up combo damage with; meanwhile streak requires a Sorc to most often turn around to follow up the stun.

Sorcs aren’t bad or trash but what the OP is seeing is a small niche of Sorc potential, a 30% proc chance on a Frags. Most any class can get their primary pool up around 50k and their weapon spell damage around the 5k mark; that’s not specific to Sorcs.

And don’t even get me started on gear. Raise your hand if you’re running Monolith or Beacon??? Yeah, nobody, but other class specific sets actually see real world use and benefit. Pyrebrand is everywhere because it’s actually good. Meanwhile Sorcs get a set that spawns sparkler sticks like we’re ready for the 4th of July.

Lastly let’s talk about ranged DPS, which Mag Sorcs pretty much are. Nobody thinks about the underlying use and mechanics of those builds. PvP is loaded with a TON of mele / physical damage, and why not; mechanically it’s the most forgiving damage dealing. Be within the area and one can land damage; meanwhile a Mag Sorc running staves has to deal with the games hit detection .. (if you wonder what I’m on about, go run any dungeon with a massive sized boss and try hitting it with a staff or target ability then scratch your head when 50% of the boss doesn’t register for a hit). …. What that means is that the “risk vs reward” prospect for close proximity physical damage is reduced to very low risk, high reward. As a player with a staff versus a mele player who’s nearly on top of you means that you have to adjust your mobility strats by a lot. And that’s not the end of the world but it is an example of another layer of skill variation in this game.

This is probably why we see more Stam Sorcs than Mag Sorcs in PvP nowadays and I don’t blame them.

IMO Sorcs overall need an overhaul to most of their class abilities to give the class an identity besides pet shop cheerleader. We can contribute to the team but nobody wants us to be able to hold our own without relaying on world skills.

MasterSpatula · May 30

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Listen, as someone who mains Mag Sorc I’m calling some nonsense here.
[snip]

Hey now, no fair bringing facts and reason into a Nerf Sorc thread!

Maggusemm · May 30

for PVE sorc is not really in a good state. damage and especially cleave potential in real content is below average.

So if you are speaking for PVP, there are at least as strong arcanist, warden, dk, nb. necro and templar builds in the game. With subclassing some class skills like streak, cloak etc have to be watched. But to be honest, streak doesnt port very far, if you dont invest in speed, you are in 2s in melee range of enemy.

xylena_lazarow · May 30

MagSorcs running their U45 builds were doing significantly less damage in dueling, like losing as much as a third of their damage compared to live. Looks a lot more severe than just the 5% mag pool nerf due to what, rearranging passives to accomodate pet builds again? Really wish they had a PvE-only Summoner class just for wacky pet mechanics.