Why Are There Addons Allowing PvP Players To Know When A Projectile Is Incoming?

randconfig

It seems very plainly that this is cheating, but from what I can tell ZOS allows it... Really annoying that every enemy knows when im casting a projectile at them from behind and they immediately dodge it...

If that's the case, I guess I have to download and install it too. Is the most popular one LUI Extended?

sarahthes

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

Reginald_leBlem

LUI extended is a popular addon, but I don't think it does this. I run LUI and don't get alerts like that.

I think Miats (if it's still around) or RDK are more pvp oriented addons, and I think either of them will do this.

Tommy_The_Gun

Unpopular opinion of mine:
It does not matter if you are playing ESO or WoT or any other PvP game. Mods, Addons etc (whatever community calls them) should be disabled in every type of Player vs Player game/scenario/environment.

randconfig

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

sarahthes

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

Some of it could be latency. There's a lot of desync in ESO PvP due to everything being handled server side.

randconfig

sarahthes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

Some of it could be latency. There's a lot of desync in ESO PvP due to everything being handled server side.

Right, but there are numerous encounters where a player will perfectly time dodges for all my projectiles back-to-back without seeing me. So it can't just be a latency issue.

sarahthes

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

Some of it could be latency. There's a lot of desync in ESO PvP due to everything being handled server side.

Right, but there are numerous encounters where a player will perfectly time dodges for all my projectiles back-to-back without seeing me. So it can't just be a latency issue.

I doubt everyone is using the same add-on though.

AngryPenguin

The author of the add on being discussed posted on this very forum that "if ZOS lets it work, then it can't be against the ToS, cheating or an exploit". I vehemently disagree with this statement and way of thinking. "If I can get away with it, it's not cheating" is not a valid response in my firm opinion. And by the way, the add on providing this alert to incoming projectiles is not RDK group tools or LUI extended.

TaSheen

You can get a video and submit to Customer Support as an exploit. Then it's up to them to decide yes or no. Note they won't tell you what the decision is.

AngryPenguin

TaSheen wrote: »

You can get a video and submit to Customer Support as an exploit. Then it's up to them to decide yes or no. Note they won't tell you what the decision is.

This would have to be a self report situation. Something I don't think many will line up to do. The alert shows up for the person using the questionable add on, not on the screen the "victim" is looking at.

But hey, maybe the author is right and the alert isn't considered cheating or an exploit by ZOS, though for the life of me I couldn't imagine why it wouldn't be considered something that shouldn't be in game.

Another thing I've been wondering about for 2-3 years now is if there is an auto dodge cheat script available somehow. Some of these players are reacting so fast to incoming projectiles and being CC'd I don't see how human reaction time could be so instantaneous. It's possible ZOS just hasn't flagged an actual cheat that is really hard to detect. The existence of an auto dodge cheat is purely something I wonder about. I have zero evidence such a thing exists other than so many instances of "holy cow that player always manages to dodge projectiles and CC's so fast it makes me suspicious". And that hardly qualifies as evidence.

But back to the topic at hand, the alert notification existed in this add on when it was first created over 8 years ago. It was supposed to be disabled a couple years or so ago, but maybe ZOS just missed removing the ability for that notification feature to work, which seems the most likely to me. Or maybe the author tweaked his add on to make it work again too. Only ZOS and the author know for sure what's happening here, but it is happening.

randconfig

sarahthes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

Some of it could be latency. There's a lot of desync in ESO PvP due to everything being handled server side.

Right, but there are numerous encounters where a player will perfectly time dodges for all my projectiles back-to-back without seeing me. So it can't just be a latency issue.

I doubt everyone is using the same add-on though.

I never said everyone, I said "there are players".

madman65

This why PVP and PVE need to be separated.

EF321

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I thought that part of the API was disabled in PvP?

I thought it was too based on what I've been able to find by searching the forums and google, yet there are players who never look at me and proceed to dodge each of my projectiles when I launch them.

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

Why are addons even allowed in PvP, it's absolutely cheating/unfair advantage over everyone else not using them...

Some of it could be latency. There's a lot of desync in ESO PvP due to everything being handled server side.

Right, but there are numerous encounters where a player will perfectly time dodges for all my projectiles back-to-back without seeing me. So it can't just be a latency issue.

Videos?

davidtk

randconfig wrote: »

There are also players who instantly know when they have been immobilized despite not seeing me immobilize them from behind. I know they know because they INSTANTLY roll dodge out of it.

I'm just shooting from the side, but against immobilization is "Snow Traders" mythic. But I assume that if that's it the UI will just write "Dodged" and that mythic doesn't do the roll dodge animation.
I've honestly never used the mythic, so I really have no idea if this could be the case.

Soarora

If any addon does let people see projectiles coming, based on the story of Miats, I don’t think its allowed. It is possible they are actually seeing the projectile/immobilize though. Its not hard to see when you’re immobilized and if you set your FOV large enough or have a top-down camera setup (I think theres an addon for that maybe?) you’d be able to see projectiles coming from behind you. They also could’ve had their camera facing you but their character facing away, you never actually know what direction someones looking. Unless you’re seeing them do front roll dodges away from you, because I think no matter what direction they’re looking, their character direction will snap to their camera direction when rolling. So if they roll away but they’re looking at you, I think they’d do a back roll dodge.

Thumbless_Bot

You answered your own question.

Sleepsin

If you see the projectile, in most cases the damage is already done. That's why a projectile will follow you around corners.

There used to be an add-on that would tell you that you were targeted for a heavy attack, that was supposedly fixed. There was a large thread about that add-on, and various people talked about add-ons that could do similar things, but were not public.

It's the add-ons that are not public that could cause problems. The add-ons should get some kind of approval or verification tag before being allowed in-game. There's only a few devs monitoring these add-ons (if any) and countless people tinkering around with the system looking for an advantage.

katanagirl1

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Unpopular opinion of mine:
It does not matter if you are playing ESO or WoT or any other PvP game. Mods, Addons etc (whatever community calls them) should be disabled in every type of Player vs Player game/scenario/environment.

Console land is waiting with open arms…

Players still claim there is cheating going on there, though.

YandereGirlfriend

I have a friend who uses Miat's and yes it still has this functionality. Yes, I think it's total cheese and basically a cheat as well.

I would definitely add my support to any initiative to disallow add-ons in any PvP venue (would also likely improve performance by some indeterminate percentage) BUT that might also sweep the leg on the PvP population since like 95% of players crutch on them to various degrees.

LittlePinkDot

randconfig wrote: »

It seems very plainly that this is cheating, but from what I can tell ZOS allows it... Really annoying that every enemy knows when im casting a projectile at them from behind and they immediately dodge it...

If that's the case, I guess I have to download and install it too. Is the most popular one LUI Extended?

Playing on console instead of PC solves this problem.

Amottica

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I have a friend who uses Miat's and yes it still has this functionality. Yes, I think it's total cheese and basically a cheat as well.

I would definitely add my support to any initiative to disallow add-ons in any PvP venue (would also likely improve performance by some indeterminate percentage) BUT that might also sweep the leg on the PvP population since like 95% of players crutch on them to various degrees.

Can we get some video that this is still happening?

Monte_Cristo

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

It seems very plainly that this is cheating, but from what I can tell ZOS allows it... Really annoying that every enemy knows when im casting a projectile at them from behind and they immediately dodge it...

If that's the case, I guess I have to download and install it too. Is the most popular one LUI Extended?

Playing on console instead of PC solves this problem.

That would require having a console and using a controller, though.

Just_Attivi

There are some defensive behaviors people take that COULD be coincidence. For example:

on a NB I drink pots on cooldown to generate ultimate even if im out of combat. these are usually detect pots because theyre cheap and I only have so many quick slots. This has on many occasions, let me catch someone about to gank and react appropriately.

When using a bow, I will dodge roll to get major expedition, pretty much the moment the dodge fatigue cools off. This is something I'd usually do in large open areas while stuck in combat, which is also where gankers like to pew pew. Its lead to unexpected but welcome dodges of said pew pews plenty of times.

Some people proactively dodge/buff/hold block. For instance Before I press my mount button, if im in an area I expect there might be trouble, Ill usually cast my HoT and dodgeroll, before hitting "H" so that I have a little more of a window to prevent damage while im mounting. Same thing for entering doors, as often times kill squads sit inside postern doors of keeps under siege, so that while im transitioning in, I'll have that tiny window of safety.

If I'm actively being shot at while Im running/avoiding that fight, Dodge roll gives you 2 seconds of 'dodge'. Skills Fire every second. Every 2 times you pew pew I will actively be dodging just to keep the damage off me until I can get Line of Sight away. Same thing with debuffs, If i see a debuff suddenly go on me, I pretty much dodge immediately before the next skill can go.

Some skills provide Audio cues and have travel time. For instance, Incap has a 'Shwing!" sound and a (.4? .5?) second cast time. Merciless Resolve has a gunshot like sound and a (.4? .5?) second travel time despite its instant cast. Lethal Arrow has a 'arrow loose' sound and a similar travel time on top of your .8 second cast time. These audio cues can give a player the chance to react and dodge the attacks entirely.

The above situations are all common place from anyone aware of the situations they are in. Pretty much all of the above have gotten me 'Nice Hacks' whispered, or something similar. a lot of it is just experience and having an idea of what to expect. the only combat-related Addon I run is a metronome so i can better time recoveries and Light attacks, which even that is hit and miss because server performance is a joke.
---
Your examples of 'casting from behind' and 'immobilizing from behind' do not really convey anything shady. Immobilize has a visual cue AND literally stops you in your tracks. dodgeroll to keep moving. If youre actively casting things at someone from behind, see above, no one with the ability to dodge would let you spam at them without doing their best to dodge every 2 seconds or as they are able. 'dodging projectiles back to back' suggests multiple shots. If i know someones spamming at me and I am running, without turning around I would assume you are continuing to spam and dodgeroll toward Line of Sight.
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Additionally, Performance for the last ~8 months has been atrocious for many. Not gonna bother giving examples, but there's been many times where my partner in comms sees something drastically different than I, or vice versa, because this game 'Just Works.' This has been made very clear that sometimes you aren't where you think you are, are visible when you think you aren't, skills/potions that gave you all indication that they went off but didn't, and enemies aren't always doing what you see. Its possible you've already come out of stealth and are lining up your arrow, and they dodge because you are plainly visible. is it frustrating BS that this is our current server performance? yes. but its not hacks.
---
Finally, I will add, despite all of the above stipulations and explanations, for years there have been some players that always seem to be able to dodge initial attacks made while invisible from range. I think the use of questionable methods/shady addons is dramatically less than people think, but I do think it is out there. Id be all for addons being entirely disabled in PVP or any competitive game activities (though, there are some non-combat addons that are QoL that I don't know how they arent in base game, which I'd hate to lose, but if it eliminated problems, Id give them up)

Four_Fingers

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

It seems very plainly that this is cheating, but from what I can tell ZOS allows it... Really annoying that every enemy knows when im casting a projectile at them from behind and they immediately dodge it...

If that's the case, I guess I have to download and install it too. Is the most popular one LUI Extended?

Playing on console instead of PC solves this problem.

That would require having a console and using a controller, though.

You know what is bonkers? All modern consoles support keyboard and mouse, but developers cripple the keyboard/mouse interface in the game on consoles. Seems like extra work, why not just make it the same as PC.

OtarTheMad

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Unpopular opinion of mine:
It does not matter if you are playing ESO or WoT or any other PvP game. Mods, Addons etc (whatever community calls them) should be disabled in every type of Player vs Player game/scenario/environment.

Agreed. Although I do like the ones that tells me what is under attack and how close I am to the next rank.

We want the “good old days” of 2014 but we had no add ons back then either.

reazea

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I have a friend who uses Miat's and yes it still has this functionality. Yes, I think it's total cheese and basically a cheat as well.

I would definitely add my support to any initiative to disallow add-ons in any PvP venue (would also likely improve performance by some indeterminate percentage) BUT that might also sweep the leg on the PvP population since like 95% of players crutch on them to various degrees.

Yep it's this add on. I'm afraid to post the name though in fear of naming and shaming action being taken against me.

But lets not go throwing away the baby with the bathwater by eliminating all add ons. We can fix the issues that are exploitive and keep the vast majority of the add ons that make the game much easier to manage and play. In other words, don't burn down the house because the kitchen sink is leaking.

doabhi

It might not even be an addon in some cases. I've been ganked so many times in PVP by Nightblades that it has become muscle memory to roll dodge when i hear the sound of surprise attack(? i think that's the skill) coming out of nowhere.

Yes. Pro Tip. I can hear that charging up even when you're in stealth.
No it's not an addon, or an exploit.

Is it intended? Don't know, I'm not a ZOS dev, but for some reason that sound played to me even when the attacker was hidden, could simply have been a bug (Seen plenty of 'local' sounds play globally in the game) and I learned to react to it.

warm_blanket

Miats cannot provide projectile alerts. Feel free to prove otherwise with in game evidence.

A few others have noted that the game will already telegraph certain incoming attacks for you regardless of whether you can or cannot see the attacker.

Remember to pay attention to those telegraphs in pvp.

silky_soft

doabhi wrote: »

It might not even be an addon in some cases. I've been ganked so many times in PVP by Nightblades that it has become muscle memory to roll dodge when i hear the sound of surprise attack(? i think that's the skill) coming out of nowhere.

Yes. Pro Tip. I can hear that charging up even when you're in stealth.
No it's not an addon, or an exploit.

Is it intended? Don't know, I'm not a ZOS dev, but for some reason that sound played to me even when the attacker was hidden, could simply have been a bug (Seen plenty of 'local' sounds play globally in the game) and I learned to react to it.

You can hear skills, but not melee heavy. Melee heavy attacks don't have a sound yet certain people will Dodge them if you charge it with them near the reticle. You got to charge it away from them and flick back.

But heavy attacks are so unreliable these days even if you're ontop of the target. A pre charge skill is worth more.

There should be no notification that you are about to be attacked. People go on and on about it being fixed ages ago, but it never was. It just changed from a word splash to a ping sound.

AnduinTryggva

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The author of the add on being discussed posted on this very forum that "if ZOS lets it work, then it can't be against the ToS, cheating or an exploit". I vehemently disagree with this statement and way of thinking. "If I can get away with it, it's not cheating" is not a valid response in my firm opinion. And by the way, the add on providing this alert to incoming projectiles is not RDK group tools or LUI extended.

Fully agree. All API outside cosmetics should be disabled in PvP areas.