I read the announcement and it sounds to me like ESO is heading into Maintenance Mode

katorga

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Arunei

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

What concrete data have you gathered regarding historical and current trends to show that player retention is the "opposite of fine"? Anecdotes from content creators and/or your buddies don't count as a trend for the entire game population.

Are you new to ESO? I've been playing since 2014.

And? My point and question both still stand.

The mass exodus began with U35. That was in 2022. Now, 2 years later, ZOS announces what is essentially an end to significant new content releases.

My point still stands unchallenged and is supported by a plethora of evidence. If you don't see it, that's on you.

If you have a plethora of evidence then provide it. As someone making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the proof you claim exists. And you can't get out of it by telling people to research for themselves. You're saying you apparently have access to proof, so provide it.

You're trying to claim a new content release model somehow means they're losing players. But again provide no proof. This is all basically amounting to a "trust me bro" type thing. Because you're ignoring the reasons provided for going to the new content model: It's been asked for for years by the player base for release models and content to not be so stagnant and ability to add more to the game more often.

Rich literally said they're doing this because people have wanted a new release cadence and wanted content that wasn't predictable. He also plainly mentioned that doing things in smaller batches without a fixed time period gives the dev team more freedom in testing new stuff and adding it to the game, freedom they don't have now because of time constraints with the current cycle of how they do content.

And I've also been playing since the game launched. Also played during closed beta. I don't see the huge population drops people keep claiming are constantly going on, and I didn't read the letter as "we're going maintenance mode" at all. A lot of what they want to do is a HELL of a lot of work for a game they're supposedly wanting to sunset.

Edit to add I'm 100% not above criticizing ZOS. Take a look through my post history and you'll see that. But I also don't blindly go after them over things we have no real info on, and will credit them when it's due as much as I'll criticize when something needs it. Just throwing that out there before someone busts out the "white knight" comment.

acastanza_ESO

Cooperharley wrote: »

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

Right? Like, the letter was literally a checklist of what the forums have been begging for for years, and instead of taking that as a sign that ZOS actually seems to have listened people are crying "maintenance mode" just because we won't be getting another "daedric prince wants to take over tamriel" rehash chapter. Like, seriously? What the heck people.

Northwold

katorga wrote: »

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Reworking the base game zones to bring them up to current standards really does NOT sound like a "minor change", nor the kind of thing anyone would bother to do if they were planning to shut a game down. Indeed, general consensus among players here has tended to be that the idea of overhauling the base zones was preposterous because of the work involved.

colossalvoids

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

Right? Like, the letter was literally a checklist of what the forums have been begging for for years, and instead of taking that as a sign that ZOS actually seems to have listened people are crying "maintenance mode" just because we won't be getting another "daedric prince wants to take over tamriel" rehash chapter. Like, seriously? What the heck people.

People who were getting that they wanted are feeling "betrayed". From the point of view of someone feeling that for the last 5y I can understand frustration they face when they're not seem to be the focus for a single year yet.

Desiato

I think there are a lot of factors, but the elephant in my room is TES 6 and how it coexists with ESO.

To me, the reason single player story chapters were released was to fill the gap between TES 5 and 6. With TES6 presumably on the horizon, this is no longer necessary.

I don't think ESO is approaching anything like life support or maintenance mode, but it is certainly being repositioned for a new phase.

Estin

I'm not going to make much judgement until they officially reveal what their plans are, but my initial thoughts on this is cautiously optimistic. The game doesn't need more chapter zones. There's far too many, and it has become extremely repetitive with the same amount of sets, delves, incursions, dungeons, and trials per year with coupled with a major game system. The letter pointed that out too. I would hope the seasonal format means there could be a season of dungeons, trials, pvp, etc where we can see more than 4 2 dungeons, 1 trial, new arenas, and PvP game modes per year. As it stands MMO wise, we really only get a handful of things to play with while so much is put into solo story content that a lot of players, including me, avoided due to the lack of engaging difficulty. I'm curious to see how they handle the changes for that problem.

My only fear is what they have in store with their experiments combat wise. I do not wish to go through another evolution of combat akin to runescape where they make major changes such as removing LAW, bar swapping, block casting, etc. I know there are players who dislike those mechanics, but it's what makes ESO's combat unique and fluid compared to other MMOs. The PvP skill changes do have me feeling uncertain because it can harm build diversity and theory crafting in favor of a larger population. I would hope they could port over current skills so they can be adjusted for PvP instead of being tied to PvE. I would wager that the majority of skills, especially single target skills, aren't problematic and can still be used in this new system.

sunsrest

I think the 'seasonal grab bag of content' method is a way to be off the hook for comparisons and accusations of under delivering content compared to previous chapters. Kind of like how the last 2 companions were separate and with quests in the base zones. Also it might mean a new season pass bundle to cover everything, I don't know. But I also don't think it means no more PVE content, just less unfortunately. I wonder if the game really is unprofitable (hard to believe an Elder Scrolls game could be) or they're just continually moving devs to that other project aka 'prioritizing'.

That said re-doing the base game textures and having some smaller PVE storylines in the base zones are still OK it's just that's less content. The pursuits and endeavors are OK but that can't be the main reason to play the game. The events and festivals as a standalone draw could be good.. but they would have to add a lot of new encounters and scenarios to be fresh, it would probably seen as too much work.

Jaraal

Northwold wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Reworking the base game zones to bring them up to current standards really does NOT sound like a "minor change", nor the kind of thing anyone would bother to do if they were planning to shut a game down. Indeed, general consensus among players here has tended to be that the idea of overhauling the base zones was preposterous because of the work involved.

EverQuest did this years ago. They went back and reworked many of the base zones by updating textures, graphics, adding new models, etcetera. It was great for a couple of weeks, as people went and looked around, marveling and applauding all the lovely new work. And then within a month, those zones were deserted once again, as people went back to the newer zones to get the newest drops.

Unless they give folks a good reason to play extensively in old zones, it will be a waste of effort. We'll have to wait and see how ZOS incentivizes it.

Northwold

Jaraal wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Reworking the base game zones to bring them up to current standards really does NOT sound like a "minor change", nor the kind of thing anyone would bother to do if they were planning to shut a game down. Indeed, general consensus among players here has tended to be that the idea of overhauling the base zones was preposterous because of the work involved.

EverQuest did this years ago. They went back and reworked many of the base zones by updating textures, graphics, adding new models, etcetera. It was great for a couple of weeks, as people went and looked around, marveling and applauding all the lovely new work. And then within a month, those zones were deserted once again, as people went back to the newer zones to get the newest drops.

Unless they give folks a good reason to play extensively in old zones, it will be a waste of effort. We'll have to wait and see how ZOS incentivizes it.

I'm not sure it's a waste of effort. We see this from the perspective of having already been there. But the viability of the game also depends on new players. And for them that is the first thing they see.

Orbital78

The past few chapters felt rushed, some had game or quest breaking bugs, missing or bugged voice overs or textures. More polished content sounds great to me, as long as they give it the proper internal testing. Player testing doesn't cut it.

Base game graphics overhaul is very much needed to modernize it to dlc level. Increased overland difficulty sounds interesting as long as it is optional or limited to some areas like Craglorn group delves. Will need more information on these things to really judge.

We've heard the Cyrodiil performance fix focus for years now. I hope they can do it, and better balance pvp without hurting pve.

I hope they get around to increasing build options with more set reworks and viability too. More heavy attack set love and viability other than the few options.

disky

Jaraal wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Reworking the base game zones to bring them up to current standards really does NOT sound like a "minor change", nor the kind of thing anyone would bother to do if they were planning to shut a game down. Indeed, general consensus among players here has tended to be that the idea of overhauling the base zones was preposterous because of the work involved.

EverQuest did this years ago. They went back and reworked many of the base zones by updating textures, graphics, adding new models, etcetera. It was great for a couple of weeks, as people went and looked around, marveling and applauding all the lovely new work. And then within a month, those zones were deserted once again, as people went back to the newer zones to get the newest drops.

Unless they give folks a good reason to play extensively in old zones, it will be a waste of effort. We'll have to wait and see how ZOS incentivizes it.

Consider it this way: ZOS sells the very affordable base game as a way to introduce new players to the larger game and its chapters. If the game they're seeing is essentially 2014 graphics, that's not a good way to introduce players, especially considering how different the newer zones look. A more consistent and up-to-date look is great for long-term player retention, and not just for vets. It may even allow them to consolidate assets which could lower the install size a bit.

Estin

disky wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Yep, maintenance mode...minor content updates, minor changes. No major investments. Developers laid off or reassigned to new products. Par for a 10 year old MMO.

The performant comments regarding pvp is discouraging. My guess is that they go with a "PVP skill line" for each class and that is all you can use in PVP. Very similar to werewolf...5 fixed skills and an ultimate.

Reworking the base game zones to bring them up to current standards really does NOT sound like a "minor change", nor the kind of thing anyone would bother to do if they were planning to shut a game down. Indeed, general consensus among players here has tended to be that the idea of overhauling the base zones was preposterous because of the work involved.

EverQuest did this years ago. They went back and reworked many of the base zones by updating textures, graphics, adding new models, etcetera. It was great for a couple of weeks, as people went and looked around, marveling and applauding all the lovely new work. And then within a month, those zones were deserted once again, as people went back to the newer zones to get the newest drops.

Unless they give folks a good reason to play extensively in old zones, it will be a waste of effort. We'll have to wait and see how ZOS incentivizes it.

Consider it this way: ZOS sells the very affordable base game as a way to introduce new players to the larger game and its chapters. If the game they're seeing is essentially 2014 graphics, that's not a good way to introduce players, especially considering how different the newer zones look. A more consistent and up-to-date look is great for long-term player retention, and not just for vets. It may even allow them to consolidate assets which could lower the install size a bit.

It's not just graphics for the landscape. Some base game zones arguably look better than recent zones. A big issue that I hope they address are the stiff NPCs. Base game quest NPCs stand completely still when talking to you. NPCs in DLC areas are a lot more expressive. Character designs need to be updated too because many base game NPCs look the same, as well as the armor being low quality.

tsaescishoeshiner

Maintenance mode doesn't mean "less content than before" (which might not be true here), it means more like "minimal to no new content".

We're still getting new zones, systems, quests, quality-of-life updates and reworks--as far as we know, it's just at a different pace. So calling it maintenance mode doesn't follow the definition of the phrase.

It does capture people's disappointment with what they're interpreting as getting less content, which might not even be true. Even though players did request that here on the forums--focusing less on new things, fixing up old systems and old zones, and investing in the long-term health of the game instead of only new content that they felt was "rushed".

I'm waiting to see how it turns out, and what new content is announced in April. Which feels so far away now.

Servadei

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

Faulgor

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just to follow up here. The changes here are to make us more agile and produce more engaging and varied content. So from our prospective, it is not us "going into maintenance" but rather being able to address several concerns the player base has noted over the years.

LadyGP

Servadei wrote: »

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

This!

I know everyone is freaking out.. but based on the amount of performance related threads that pop up weekly (not to mention the 7 month old lag thread with 95 pages) it's pretty obvious they need to address the back end code stacks a bit and clean things up.

I welcome this change. What is the point in pumping out content if performance is so bad people can't enjoy it? How many times have people dc'ed while trying out the new trials? I've lost count of the number of trifecta runs people have lost because of crashes/dc'ing.

Don't get me started on Cyro and that experience.

So yes, agree... it's a "soft maintenance mode" and I think the community should embrace it. I also love the idea that they are going to try new things and let the devs "experiment".

Who knows what could come of this. Yes, some ideas are going to fail miserably but I hope the devs don't get defeated by this and keep pushing and trying new things. Fail... and fail fast. Learn from what didn't work and try something new.

The community will be okay in the long run.

I_killed_Vivec

LadyGP wrote: »

Servadei wrote: »

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

So yes, agree... it's a "soft maintenance mode" and I think the community should embrace it. I also love the idea that they are going to try new things and let the devs "experiment".

That's what they say, but we were expecting a new Chapter announcement in a couple of weeks... now nothing until April, when they might announce some kind of "season". Hardly breeds any sense of confidence.

As for "experiments", I'd rather they experiment at their own dollar, not mine. I want to be paying for a game that works. Experiments, bug fixes, oversights, performance updates... that's all part of the game I have already paid for handsomely, I shouldn't have to pay for them again.

disky

I wouldn't consider it even "soft" maintenance mode. To me it feels like they're simply putting the same level of effort into what they already have, and that's a great thing. Chapters have become so formulaic and static, and we can really use a refresh within our current content. There's so much that can be done, so much progress that can be made, and that kind of glow-up would require the effort of the whole studio.

LadyGP

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Servadei wrote: »

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

So yes, agree... it's a "soft maintenance mode" and I think the community should embrace it. I also love the idea that they are going to try new things and let the devs "experiment".

That's what they say, but we were expecting a new Chapter announcement in a couple of weeks... now nothing until April, when they might announce some kind of "season". Hardly breeds any sense of confidence.

As for "experiments", I'd rather they experiment at their own dollar, not mine. I want to be paying for a game that works. Experiments, bug fixes, oversights, performance updates... that's all part of the game I have already paid for handsomely, I shouldn't have to pay for them again.

How can they experiment if they don't push it to live? It's not like the entire game is going to change. They already said they will add a new campaign for the experiment related to cyro. I don't see anything wrong with this.

If you want to think about it a bit differently any "change" they make to ESO has been an experiment. If it's received poorly or didn't work as intended they change course. Now they are just going to be more aggressive and transparent about said experiments.

I_killed_Vivec

LadyGP wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Servadei wrote: »

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

So yes, agree... it's a "soft maintenance mode" and I think the community should embrace it. I also love the idea that they are going to try new things and let the devs "experiment".

That's what they say, but we were expecting a new Chapter announcement in a couple of weeks... now nothing until April, when they might announce some kind of "season". Hardly breeds any sense of confidence.

As for "experiments", I'd rather they experiment at their own dollar, not mine. I want to be paying for a game that works. Experiments, bug fixes, oversights, performance updates... that's all part of the game I have already paid for handsomely, I shouldn't have to pay for them again.

How can they experiment if they don't push it to live? It's not like the entire game is going to change. They already said they will add a new campaign for the experiment related to cyro. I don't see anything wrong with this.

If you want to think about it a bit differently any "change" they make to ESO has been an experiment. If it's received poorly or didn't work as intended they change course. Now they are just going to be more aggressive and transparent about said experiments.

They can, and do, experiment with the PTS.

Unfortunately they don't listen to responses (see Jabs...).

Estin

Servadei wrote: »

It's not full on maintenance mode, but I'd call it soft maintenance mode and frankly I don't think that's a bad thing. ESO is massive. It's about time they went deeper into existing zones instead of releasing shallow new zones like Gold Road.

I think it can be seen as a maintenance mode for players who primarily play for the solo questing content. I haven't quested years and only been doing the repeatable MMO content, so I see this as a potentially good opportunity. The core of the game does need to be taken care of instead of adding more on top of it, but I do hope this also means we can see more MMO related content instead of the usual 1 trial and 2/4 dungeon pack per year.

disky

Estin wrote: »

I think it can be seen as a maintenance mode for players who primarily play for the solo questing content.

Not at all. I am definitely overland-focused and to me this feels like it will be a breath of fresh air. I actually avoid zone stories because I'm waiting for them to be fun. I might now actually get the chance to enjoy them in the way that suits me, and on top of that, it sounds like the devs are putting in an effort to revitalize other aspects of the zones we have. It's quite exciting from my point of view.

Integral1900

Craglorn…….. CRAGLORN!!!!!!!!!?????

I love Craglorn, but……..

They rebuilt it because nobody was there! The quest chain was impossible to complete unless everyone was at the exact same stage! There were so few people who finished the quest chain you could’ve fitted them all in one classroom! Why in sanity’s name is this thing being used as the example if your plan is to inspire confidence?

The zone was such a disaster it got a a rebuild, the main quest chopped into pieces, difficulty spikes and pits all over the place, some of the prettiest dungeons and best world building in the game where, after the rebuild, a player could encounter either opponents so feeble they could walk through the entire lot simply holding down the left mouth button, or massive packs of trash mobs with hundreds of thousands of health which beat the snot out of them, basically next door to each other!

The open world needs a higher difficulty set, there is no way around that. The quests need to be beefed up. The base game main quest needs to be beefed up. There is some great storytelling and some wonderful set pieces, but the delivery is a mess.

Soarora

Integral1900 wrote: »

Craglorn…….. CRAGLORN!!!!!!!!!?????

I love Craglorn, but……..

They rebuilt it because nobody was there! The quest chain was impossible to complete unless everyone was at the exact same stage! There were so few people who finished the quest chain you could’ve fitted them all in one classroom! Why in sanity’s name is this thing being used as the example if your plan is to inspire confidence?

The zone was such a disaster it got a a rebuild, the main quest chopped into pieces, difficulty spikes and pits all over the place, some of the prettiest dungeons and best world building in the game where, after the rebuild, a player could encounter either opponents so feeble they could walk through the entire lot simply holding down the left mouth button, or massive packs of trash mobs with hundreds of thousands of health which beat the snot out of them, basically next door to each other!

The open world needs a higher difficulty set, there is no way around that. The quests need to be beefed up. The base game main quest needs to be beefed up. There is some great storytelling and some wonderful set pieces, but the delivery is a mess.

That reminds me, the questing system really needs overhauled. It'd be nice to be able to go back and redo quests if I want and even help people who request it or people I'm grouped with through parts of a quest if I've done the quest already. Its also hard to quest with other players because, say, someone finishes a dialogue or picks up a piece of paper and now you can't read the text.

JiubLeRepenti

Faulgor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just to follow up here. The changes here are to make us more agile and produce more engaging and varied content. So from our prospective, it is not us "going into maintenance" but rather being able to address several concerns the player base has noted over the years.

They said the same thing when they decided to remove the Extension in Q4. It was supposed to give developers time and space to focus on QoL (Quality of Life) and game improvements. However, it’s clear that we received less content for the same price (speaking about the chapter), with no real QoL improvements.

Oh, wait—no, not for the same price. This time, if we buy the Chapter but don’t have ESO+, we also have to purchase companions.

So, Kevin and Matt can say whatever they want, but I'll just focus on the facts and form my own opinion based on them.

Res, non verba.

fall0athboy

The line about freeing up staff concerns me, because IIRC Zenimax has been working on another MMO for a while. It sounds like they're trying to move people to that.

OtarTheMad

It’s not even close to maintenance mode. We don’t even know what Seasons are going to be like so we don’t know what kind of content we will get, maybe more, maybe same or maybe less. I just don’t see maintenance mode.

Ruthless

This is their forums they are reading this, they said they want more communication, here is their chance to talk to use to reassure us its not in maintenance mode.
Not just a sentence or two but actually explain how ESO is not going into maintenance mode

disky

fall0athboy wrote: »

The line about freeing up staff concerns me, because IIRC Zenimax has been working on another MMO for a while. It sounds like they're trying to move people to that.

Do you mean this?

We are embarking on these changes to give the development team the space to find a new cadence that can mix new content and systems with addressing feedback, fixing issues, and adding new quests and activities to existing zones and stories.

That doesn't sound to me like they're moving anyone away from the team, it sounds like they're allowing the team to shift priorities.