Studio Director's Letter: 2025 Cyrodiil Mention

The_Meathead

"We need to seriously address Cyrodiil performance. Our (ambitious) goal is to return it to the concurrency levels we supported in 2014. So, we will be experimenting with a Cyrodiil campaign where all classes will have PvP-specific (and more performant) skills that replace the standard player skills with the expectation that we can support more players per campaign."

- Matt Firor, in the Studio Director's Letter: 2025

Does this have anyone else feeling extremely dubious?

I went from being excited by the first two sentences to being far less so by the next. It strikes me as a similar move made by WoW years ago when they implemented PvP templates for stats, something that sounded like an ok idea on paper to some and then was tremendously problematic, loathed, and removed the next Xpac. Obviously, the info here is too vague to truly guess exactly what "replacing standard player skills" will actually mean, but... do you feel like ZOS has the follow-through to make this truly functional let alone better than our current system?

They've never really completed their efforts on hybridization and most their recent ability revamps like Jabs, Flurry or their Necro overhaul have been downright poor work.

I don't mean to be such a downer, but I really don't see this as a positive. Nor do I think after all the time spent testing various things like No Proc Cyrodiil to no success that THIS is gonna be the big answer to performance. All I wanted was to hear "Hey, we're finally gonna put some limits on Cross-healing and -shielding in PvP!" but instead it's this, and it makes me very skeptical.

I could be wrong, hopefully I am. Anyone out there got some insight or optimism?

The_Meathead

Of note, he does say it will be a single Cyrodiil Campaign, and it's not going to be game-wide for PvP or even Cyrodiil.

That's significant.

RomanRex

it’s just no-proc campaign with additional restrictions on skills or something. i don’t think it will be something groundbreaking.

Vaqual

The_Meathead wrote: »

Of note, he does say it will be a single Cyrodiil Campaign, and it's not going to be game-wide for PvP or even Cyrodiil.

That's significant.

Oh wow good, I missed that and had a heart attack.

gronoxvx

Hope they reward players for this campaign or else barely anyone will spend time in there

MincMincMinc

We can break this down into 3 levels

1. MOST WORK - Zos goes and fully redesigns new skills for classes in pvp. Highly unlikely, many times before they have always stated they did not want to differentiate betweeen pve and pvp. Mainly to avoid new player confusion......even though new players dont join pvp because the campaign & cyrodil systems are almost non functional.
2. MODERATE WORK - Zos implements rule changes on skills like dots, hots, and procs where you would no longer allow stacking. OR a rule change like hots and buffs will not go outside of group. Or a rule change like you can only AoE 6 targets. Or if I recast skills that only affect 2 people, it wont remain on the first two people.
3. PURE LAZINESS - Zos bans certain skills and sets on a dead campaign with no incentives or population to get accurate numbers.

Really zos needs to take a bullet and do a big event for tests like this. If they just make another no proc campaign, people wont participate. I would rather zos gives 2x ap for a month and only have two campaigns available BOTH for testing. One of the campaigns should be restricted solely for people who participated in the previous month's campaign with a 3x ap bonus to ensure we get raw PVP numbers with a non diluted playerbase. Or go further an offer a unique reward for the campaign like mythic leads or a month of ESO+

CatoUnchained

They've been promising performance upgrades in Cyrodiil since 2018. The most notable change has been repeated stealth pop cap reductions with no notifications it was happening.

I'm not getting my hopes up, especially after seeing the PvP live stream that ZOS has even pulled from Twitch so people can't see it anymore. Not to mention what a mess the new BG's are after being touted as a big addition to the PvP options in ESO.

The_Meathead

Keep in mind their goal here - they want to reduce strain on their servers, because 2014 performance was successful when calculations were done on the user-side and not the server-side.

Once that changed because of cheating on the user-side and everything was being handled by the game servers, lag grew and grew, and populations were dialed back time and again to accommodate. So, what they're perhaps going to implement and test is some sort of generic amount Ability X = number regardless of your build or choices, so that there's a lot less calculating for their overworked servers.

I've seen some people hoping that these abilities are going to be uniquely suited to PvP and actually somehow more dynamic, but I'm expecting the opposite where they're simply stripped down enough and made universal enough that they don't require much server-side interaction, and I can't but likewise expect that's gonna mean reduced player agency and extremely diminished "MMO feel."

If I wanted to play an FPS for my PVP, I already would.

Nor given the examples of WoW PvP Templates or GW2's methods, has an older game adding this sort of thing ever led to increased participation in PvP despite the intent.

We'll see, though. Maybe it will really finally increase Cyrodiil performance back to the initial standards and life will flow back into what's certainly my favorite aspect of ESO's gameplay and what was intended at Launch to be the big endgame draw. I'll eat my hat and cheer if so, but I'm certainly not expecting much.

The_Meathead

I also really, really, really wish they'd start with hard limits on Cross-healing and -shielding, instead.

The only time I experience noticeable or even problematic lag in Cyrodiil is when Ball Groups are present. While I'm no expert, it's consistent enough that I absolutely feel the massive stacking of abilities in such a small area is a likely culprit for those issues and I've seen others voice the same with enough frequency to know it's not purely anecdotal on my end.

Add that the current tremendous power of said Ball Groups from that stacking has driven away a lot of players, and that's where I'd look instead.

Well-run and theorycrafted 12-man groups will -and should!- always have a massive advantage of communication, focuse, and timing over a similar or even somewhat larger number of less organized players, but the current amount of heals 'n shields piled on top of one another is simply overboard, and a potential contributor to bad performance to boot. With many saying the same in the Director's Letter thread responses, I really hope that gets a very hard look.

MincMincMinc

The_Meathead wrote: »

I've seen some people hoping that these abilities are going to be uniquely suited to PvP and actually somehow more dynamic, but I'm expecting the opposite where they're simply stripped down enough and made universal enough that they don't require much server-side interaction, and I can't but likewise expect that's gonna mean reduced player agency and extremely diminished "MMO feel."

Lets be honest, the vast majority of skills and sets in the game now require a 4 year degree to understand what is happening. At what point should some damage skills just be ...... you know, damage skills. The same convolution happened in games like Yugioh where card effects went from "gain xxxx damage" to multiple paragraphs of size 4 font.

just another form of power creep ruining the game, but itll never be fixed because players cry that they will feel weaker while also crying that the game is ruined.

The_Meathead

="MincMincMinc;c-8240368"Lets be honest, the vast majority of skills and sets in the game now require a 4 year degree to understand what is happening. At what point should some damage skills just be ...... you know, damage skills. The same convolution happened in games like Yugioh where card effects went from "gain xxxx damage" to multiple paragraphs of size 4 font.

Man, I feel you. I enjoyed the game more when a Set was great because it gave you X number of penetration or kept Major Brutality up full time, and I absolutely liked it better before hybridization actually made things more limited for build choices rather than expanding them. Theorycrafting was actually better at that point, to me, and it felt like we had harder parameters but more actual diversity and player agency.

Player agency is exactly what I'm afraid of losing in what they're planning to test, though again - it's only a test on one Campaign, and we've never seen those go anywhere.

As far as the Sets and skills go, I much preferred things several years ago to what we have now. Years of "balancing by Set addition" didn't help, nor did bad reworks of skills like Jabs or Flurry, and since about U35 my trust in those making changes is at an all-time low which only diminishes my faith that this new idea is gonna be implemented well or truly the answer.

MincMincMinc

Originally the game was hybridized. Then the real split to mag and stam was with vigor.

I think a few years ago they decided on simplifying the stat system, which required them to do passes across all of the other systems. This is probably to simplify making builds for new players to understand. Which can be a good thing, but now that many stats are the same what do you do with the hard specific mag and stam sets?

With hybridization though players now simply choose the best morph since scaling doesnt matter what stats you have. Again, power creep. The original way to stop this was not allowing skills to stack. Look at regen for example. If it nolonger stacks, now suddenly you start to see people branch out and run the different morph because it lets them have 2x heals instead of the 1x stack.

Maybe these rule changes are what zos is talking about for pvp specific skills.

KiltMaster

The Q4 Cyrodiil experience:

- log into character
- get to alliance gate
- attempt to port from transitus
- crash
- attempt to log back in
- 'this account is already logged in'
- go play a game that works

IF you decide to stick it out and IF you can actually log back in, most likely it's because you were booted out of Cyrodiil and now have to go sit in the queue again

if they say something will help fix performance, I'm down to at least give it a shot.

johnJrant

I've written a lot lately about the necromancer's balance. But that's definitely not what I meant. The main problem of class imbalance is in passive skills, not in active ones, and it is not clear how they will change. How will the tests take place in the house? What can we expect pvp zones in homes so that the system understands that we need pvp skill options for tests at the moment?

I don't want to see the weakening of other classes, I want to see the refinement of necromancer, warden and arcanist.
The only thing I would remove from pvp is Sorcs pets. But if we get a good aiming system, no one will care about the pets of these cowards.

If all these changes are related to cyrodiil's performance, will they be on BG and in other pvp zones?

@ZOS_Kevin To be honest, once again we see a statement that raises more questions than answers. This happens when you're not really sure what you're going to do. Victory loves preparation. You should not make changes to class skills without coordination with active groups of pvp users. Active pvp players will be happy to cooperate and tell you what they need. You can involve players of different opposing classes in the discussion. You can perfectly see who is in which class, in which mode and how they play in order to evaluate the objectivity of consultants. You are the holders of the product, you have full information on what is happening and full access to the consumer who is ready to help improve the product. There are no obstacles to bringing the product to perfection. And this advice is not from a blogger, but from a manager from a part of the world where labor legislation has not yet made you forget about efficiency. Do not do anything without conducting closed or open consultations with a sufficient number of active players of Ciro and BG. Guild heads, RLs, guys from the top BG. Everyone is in touch with you and you have all the information about their game right down to all the battle logs.

But I definitely like the shift of emphasis from a huge amount of pve content towards pvp.

Joy_Division

"Performant" = dumbed down basic functionality.

Part of me thinks this will finally make the Templar worth a crap since this will entail making some sort of changes and a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

But whatever ZOS does will the skills won't matter because so much power (and anti-performant checks) come from proc sets

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Performant" = dumbed down basic functionality.

Part of me thinks this will finally make the Templar worth a crap since this will entail making some sort of changes and a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

But whatever ZOS does will the skills won't matter because so much power (and anti-performant checks) come from proc sets

Maybe Blinding Flashes will return since the game was so much more performant with the old skills.
I'm sure we will be able to play meteor tennis and dynamic ulti gen again to recapture that performance.

Attorneyatlawl

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Performant" = dumbed down basic functionality.

Part of me thinks this will finally make the Templar worth a crap since this will entail making some sort of changes and a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

But whatever ZOS does will the skills won't matter because so much power (and anti-performant checks) come from proc sets

Maybe Blinding Flashes will return since the game was so much more performant with the old skills.
I'm sure we will be able to play meteor tennis and dynamic ulti gen again to recapture that performance.

RIP Blinding Flashes. (pours one out for the poor skill killed far too young)

Coo_PnT

I agree with the OP, cross-healing and -shielding,Cyrodiil can still work if you fix this.

Can we not communicate with the actual person in charge of PvP? I feel that the community manager in between is obscuring what we are trying to communicate.

The community manager is one thing, but the person responsible for PvP doesn't PvP on a daily basis, does he? Where do they decide if it is important to fix or not?

I am pleased that you have focused on Cyrodii next year. I hope you will actually play with Cyrodii and stream that on Twitch.

xylena_lazarow

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

MincMincMinc

Joy_Division wrote: »

"Performant" = dumbed down basic functionality.

Part of me thinks this will finally make the Templar worth a crap since this will entail making some sort of changes and a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

But whatever ZOS does will the skills won't matter because so much power (and anti-performant checks) come from proc sets

People keep using the verbiage "dumbed down combat". Zos is going to view feedback like this as negative and be less prone to accept the change.

To me the current combat is dumb and convoluted. A smarter combat would be more clear simplified skills. Would you rather combat where generic undodgeable spammables have flashy animations which hide invisible telegraphed CC. Or simplified spammables that dont lag the server and allow more CC and counterplay mechanics to be clearly seen.

The best comparison is with a card game like Yugioh. Do you really think the game is better with cards being released with size 4 font and 3 paragraph long effect descriptions? It should be alarming that most players cant understand your combat effects unless some youtuber explains it on their wiki that's wrong half the time because they dont understand it.

Coo_PnT

I consider combat, including PvP in this game very easy and casual.
There are no rates or competition with others. That's why I enjoy playing PvP in ESO.

forum_gpt

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

I disagree—zergs leaving has less to do with the ball group meta and more with overall performance issues and frustration with unresponsive gameplay. Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back, especially when the root of the problem lies in lag and server stability.

The reality is that catering to either playstyle without addressing the technical issues won't make Cyrodiil enjoyable for anyone. The game needs better infrastructure and balance, not just targeted nerfs. Blaming sweaty 12-mans feels like a scapegoat instead of looking at the bigger picture.

xylena_lazarow

forum_gpt wrote: »

Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back

The recent collapse in zerg populations on PC/NA/GH accelerated after the Azure nerf and the bottom dropped out when the BGs update cannibalized the rest. I used to love waking up 6am my time to hit Cyro before work to catch some Asia/Oceania prime time, and its now 100% dead during those times, 1 bar across, or there's 1 guild painting all the doors on the map 1 color. Often the culprit is a particularly unbeatable ball group, so don't let the best be the enemy of the better.

The_Meathead

forum_gpt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

I disagree—zergs leaving has less to do with the ball group meta and more with overall performance issues and frustration with unresponsive gameplay. Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back, especially when the root of the problem lies in lag and server stability.

The reality is that catering to either playstyle without addressing the technical issues won't make Cyrodiil enjoyable for anyone. The game needs better infrastructure and balance, not just targeted nerfs. Blaming sweaty 12-mans feels like a scapegoat instead of looking at the bigger picture.

We can all only speak to our own experiences on that subject, but many of my friends that took part in Cyrodiil heavily at one point no longer do - and it wasn't because of performance, it was because of frustration with Class Balance but especially with Ball Groups. After one time too many, they just noped off into the sunset when it comes to Cyrodiil.

I know for myself, Ball Groups and lag are connected. I never experience it when they're not present, and while I certainly don't deal with it every time they're in sight, if I have lag - they're the source. I don't know why big zerg on zerg fights don't bring the same sort of lag for me, but my totally peanut gallery non-expert opinion is that it's likely because the amount of calculations being done on such a tiny spot and in such mega-abundance are just too much for the Servers at times.

So, to me (again, this is just me), it's a double whammy.

Ball Groups have caused people to quit playing, because stacking mechanics are out of hand.

Ball Groups/stacked calculations bring lag that larger and less stacked groups of players do not.

If I was ZOS, I'd look there first when trying to correct performance AND to bring back more players. Ball Groups will and should always have a massive advantage over a similar sized or even most larger groups of less organized players because of organization, planning, communication and focus, but the stacking mechanics need to be dialed back for both lag and gameplay reasons.

MincMincMinc

The_Meathead wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

I disagree—zergs leaving has less to do with the ball group meta and more with overall performance issues and frustration with unresponsive gameplay. Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back, especially when the root of the problem lies in lag and server stability.

The reality is that catering to either playstyle without addressing the technical issues won't make Cyrodiil enjoyable for anyone. The game needs better infrastructure and balance, not just targeted nerfs. Blaming sweaty 12-mans feels like a scapegoat instead of looking at the bigger picture.

We can all only speak to our own experiences on that subject, but many of my friends that took part in Cyrodiil heavily at one point no longer do - and it wasn't because of performance, it was because of frustration with Class Balance but especially with Ball Groups. After one time too many, they just noped off into the sunset when it comes to Cyrodiil.

I know for myself, Ball Groups and lag are connected. I never experience it when they're not present, and while I certainly don't deal with it every time they're in sight, if I have lag - they're the source. I don't know why big zerg on zerg fights don't bring the same sort of lag for me, but my totally peanut gallery non-expert opinion is that it's likely because the amount of calculations being done on such a tiny spot and in such mega-abundance are just too much for the Servers at times.

So, to me (again, this is just me), it's a double whammy.

Ball Groups have caused people to quit playing, because stacking mechanics are out of hand.

Ball Groups/stacked calculations bring lag that larger and less stacked groups of players do not.

If I was ZOS, I'd look there first when trying to correct performance AND to bring back more players. Ball Groups will and should always have a massive advantage over a similar sized or even most larger groups of less organized players because of organization, planning, communication and focus, but the stacking mechanics need to be dialed back for both lag and gameplay reasons.

Its pretty funny because alot of the times its 1vX mechanics used by a few players look OP. So the Zerg majority population freaks out and screams that it shouldnt exist and things should be easier for zergs.... yada yada more numbers should win and skill shouldnt matter. However then ball groups basically become infinitely powerful with no cap or checks left in place. Inevitably massacring zergs with their own rules they called for.

forum_gpt

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back

The recent collapse in zerg populations on PC/NA/GH accelerated after the Azure nerf and the bottom dropped out when the BGs update cannibalized the rest. I used to love waking up 6am my time to hit Cyro before work to catch some Asia/Oceania prime time, and its now 100% dead during those times, 1 bar across, or there's 1 guild painting all the doors on the map 1 color. Often the culprit is a particularly unbeatable ball group, so don't let the best be the enemy of the better.

While I agree that Cyrodiil feels emptier during off-hours, blaming the decline solely on ball groups or specific updates like the Azure nerf or the BG update oversimplifies the issue. The real culprit is the lack of meaningful incentives and the ongoing performance issues that make large-scale fights frustrating or unplayable for many players. Even if ball groups disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t magically fix the declining population.

ZOS needs to address the bigger picture: server stability, rewards that motivate players to engage in Cyrodiil, and a balance that supports both small-scale and large-scale play. Pinning the blame on one factor is missing the forest for the trees.

xylena_lazarow

forum_gpt wrote: »

Even if ball groups disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t magically fix the declining population

There have been many days where I myself logged out because the only action on the map was a ball group farming a tri keep, and I'm not alone in that respect. Conversely, I'd find myself staying up a little later on the nights where it's all random zerg fights and players are willing to spread out to outposts and resources because they don't feel hard obligated to defend Arrius/Glade/Fare for the entire evening. So yeah, it would bring players back. At least one.

Overamera

Instead of only focusing on being able to inrease the cap of Cyrodiil population, It would be nice with new content of PvP. Cyrodiil has been out for so many years and even if the cap was increased and performance was better, many players are bored of it. I would personally like a new PvP zone like Imperial City or a complete change to it's map. Perhaps a new campaign with a different map to Cyrodiil. A new PvP zone would bring alot of old players back and would be a good selling point.

Something I've wished ZOS would do for their advertising/streams/trailers is to show how off highly skilled gameplay and what is possible to achive when you reach endgame. But that has never really been the case. For example the lastest PvP stream for Battlegrounds. As a player who plays both endgame for PvE and PvP and has learned light, bash, animation canceling and all these things, watching these streams and trailers the gameplay seems very slow and clunky. This gameplay for me is not very atttractive to watch. Specially nowdays with games being so fast paced. What got me into ESO was seeing gameplay of good players like SypherPK back in the days on Youtube, not the trailers which always showcased a slow and clunky playstyle without light attack weaving etc. It would be nice if ZOS could somehow showcase this more, specially for PvP.

As for the performance, the only thing that seemed to fix it for awhile was the hardware update which eventually was deteriorating after each patch. But performace is still much better than it was before it, perhaps beacuse of the lower population cap.

Avran_Sylt

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

I disagree—zergs leaving has less to do with the ball group meta and more with overall performance issues and frustration with unresponsive gameplay. Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back, especially when the root of the problem lies in lag and server stability.

The reality is that catering to either playstyle without addressing the technical issues won't make Cyrodiil enjoyable for anyone. The game needs better infrastructure and balance, not just targeted nerfs. Blaming sweaty 12-mans feels like a scapegoat instead of looking at the bigger picture.

We can all only speak to our own experiences on that subject, but many of my friends that took part in Cyrodiil heavily at one point no longer do - and it wasn't because of performance, it was because of frustration with Class Balance but especially with Ball Groups. After one time too many, they just noped off into the sunset when it comes to Cyrodiil.

I know for myself, Ball Groups and lag are connected. I never experience it when they're not present, and while I certainly don't deal with it every time they're in sight, if I have lag - they're the source. I don't know why big zerg on zerg fights don't bring the same sort of lag for me, but my totally peanut gallery non-expert opinion is that it's likely because the amount of calculations being done on such a tiny spot and in such mega-abundance are just too much for the Servers at times.

So, to me (again, this is just me), it's a double whammy.

Ball Groups have caused people to quit playing, because stacking mechanics are out of hand.

Ball Groups/stacked calculations bring lag that larger and less stacked groups of players do not.

If I was ZOS, I'd look there first when trying to correct performance AND to bring back more players. Ball Groups will and should always have a massive advantage over a similar sized or even most larger groups of less organized players because of organization, planning, communication and focus, but the stacking mechanics need to be dialed back for both lag and gameplay reasons.

Its pretty funny because alot of the times its 1vX mechanics used by a few players look OP. So the Zerg majority population freaks out and screams that it shouldnt exist and things should be easier for zergs.... yada yada more numbers should win and skill shouldnt matter. However then ball groups basically become infinitely powerful with no cap or checks left in place. Inevitably massacring zergs with their own rules they called for.

Well, TBH this game doesn't really have the equivalent of picking up a Rocket Launcher. Or a Single-target Nuke, that could help with breaking the 1vX'er and stripping players out of a ball-group.

Heh. Maybe make a lasso skill that has a range of up to 40m to pull them out from under the protection of the ball. (Roll-dodgeable though, best to try and fish out players not paying attention).

MincMincMinc

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If they nerf our skills but leave sets as is, the new camp will be DOA. Zergs all quit because the game seems to want to solely cater to sweaty 12 mans. Nerf the ball group meta and the zergs come back and fill those pop bars.

I disagree—zergs leaving has less to do with the ball group meta and more with overall performance issues and frustration with unresponsive gameplay. Nerfing ball groups isn’t some magic fix to bring zergs back, especially when the root of the problem lies in lag and server stability.

The reality is that catering to either playstyle without addressing the technical issues won't make Cyrodiil enjoyable for anyone. The game needs better infrastructure and balance, not just targeted nerfs. Blaming sweaty 12-mans feels like a scapegoat instead of looking at the bigger picture.

We can all only speak to our own experiences on that subject, but many of my friends that took part in Cyrodiil heavily at one point no longer do - and it wasn't because of performance, it was because of frustration with Class Balance but especially with Ball Groups. After one time too many, they just noped off into the sunset when it comes to Cyrodiil.

I know for myself, Ball Groups and lag are connected. I never experience it when they're not present, and while I certainly don't deal with it every time they're in sight, if I have lag - they're the source. I don't know why big zerg on zerg fights don't bring the same sort of lag for me, but my totally peanut gallery non-expert opinion is that it's likely because the amount of calculations being done on such a tiny spot and in such mega-abundance are just too much for the Servers at times.

So, to me (again, this is just me), it's a double whammy.

Ball Groups have caused people to quit playing, because stacking mechanics are out of hand.

Ball Groups/stacked calculations bring lag that larger and less stacked groups of players do not.

If I was ZOS, I'd look there first when trying to correct performance AND to bring back more players. Ball Groups will and should always have a massive advantage over a similar sized or even most larger groups of less organized players because of organization, planning, communication and focus, but the stacking mechanics need to be dialed back for both lag and gameplay reasons.

Its pretty funny because alot of the times its 1vX mechanics used by a few players look OP. So the Zerg majority population freaks out and screams that it shouldnt exist and things should be easier for zergs.... yada yada more numbers should win and skill shouldnt matter. However then ball groups basically become infinitely powerful with no cap or checks left in place. Inevitably massacring zergs with their own rules they called for.

Well, TBH this game doesn't really have the equivalent of picking up a Rocket Launcher. Or a Single-target Nuke, that could help with breaking the 1vX'er and stripping players out of a ball-group.

Heh. Maybe make a lasso skill that has a range of up to 40m to pull them out from under the protection of the ball. (Roll-dodgeable though, best to try and fish out players not paying attention).

I mean, pulls already exist. If a guaranteed way to kill a 1vXer exists, the game would purely turn into winning by population. Where right now the game needs to encourage solo and smallman gameplay instead of forcing all players to zerg.

Most new players dont immediately try to zerg because they like to go at their own pace. Inevitably not all new players will join a large group and will decide to keep pvping based on their solo or friend group experience.

The_Meathead

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, TBH this game doesn't really have the equivalent of picking up a Rocket Launcher. Or a Single-target Nuke, that could help with breaking the 1vX'er and stripping players out of a ball-group.

Heh. Maybe make a lasso skill that has a range of up to 40m to pull them out from under the protection of the ball. (Roll-dodgeable though, best to try and fish out players not paying attention).

Balance by Set addition has never helped against Ball Groups with the exception of Azureblight (which was nerfed into oblivion with unparalleled alacrity, for some reason) so I wouldn't expect the addition of such an ability or item would be any different.

In fact, Ball Groups are the biggest abusers of most the stuff that was at one point created to combat them, Rush of Agony certainly included. Getting pulled in to be wrecked is pretty much par for the course with most current BGs. You're not going to out theory-craft a Ball Group leader (that's a big compliment, BG guys) and they'll use anything and everything on the table to full effect.

Drastically cutting back Cross-healing and -shielding would at least water them down enough that Sieges, larger numbers, and bombers might have an impact again, though. The best Ball Groups with truly talented Healers throwing burst heals effectively would (and honestly should) probably still be unkillable with very rare exception, but the garden variety would absolutely become less of an "I win" button. Which, objectively, seems ideal to me.

EDIT: To the point of the original topic, drastically cutting back Cross-healing and -shielding might also increase performance by reducing the massive number of calculations the Servers handle every time a Ball Group is present. It's a pretty commonly expressed sentiment that lag is only present or dramatically worse when BGs are involved, and it's hard to imagine the dozens upon dozens of stacked HoTs and shields constantly ticking at all times in such a small area aren't a large part of that.