How do I report a forum mod?

MJallday

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to chime in here. Thank you starting the thread and having the discussion. One of the things we’ve always strived for with moderation is leading with education with community guidelines in mind. Personally, I know I have worked with several folks over the last few years to clarify guidelines or help reverse actions if comments were taken out of context. We are not trying to stifle conversation.

However, given some of the feedback in the thread, we can always adjust. In the new year, we’ll review the feedback in this thread and reach out to some of you via DM to get additional feedback. We can then chat with the moderation team and go from there.

The point of the forums is to have conversation. Both about the fun and cool things you love about ESO and for us to get feedback on where we can improve. We want to empower everyone to have challenging and engaging discourse, without breaking community guidelines. Thanks again for raising the topic and we’ll work toward a better balance here.

The key word in moderation is "context"

I absolutely agree, that insults, nasty behaviour etc... should not be tolerated. tbh thats a given

however, posting something that someone doesnt agree with, that should be absoultely allowed in addition, posting something that is held in honest belief, also should be allowed.

the problem is on this board is that if there is any HINT of critisism of this game,it gets shut down.

And this is the problem, without that feedback , you are not going to get better as a game or a company .

i genuinely believe people want to help, and all feedback is helpful. if an executive took one look at the board and thought "all is great" - then they're not inclined to do anything about it, whereas if they saw the whole lot , they might be driven towards it

feedback doesnt always have to be taken either. its exactly that.

If you want more people on this board, more conversation, more dialogue, more interaction, etc (and i assume you do) then treat the community like adults, not babies that need to be scolded for not towing the line.

The approach you have at the moment is at exact odds with having "challenging and engaging discourse" - because the community guidelines are simply too broad, strict and overcompensating.

thats my view and im really happy to talk to you more to give you some areas i think you can improve. in fact, the whole community would love to talk to you more - if you let it!

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

My biggest issue is that past infractions NEVER fall off.
Please clarify if this is how this works. If a poster makes a mistake years ago, has no infractions for a few more years, then messes up and says something they shouldn't have, is it all added up together? And could they then be considered a bad actor and be permanently banned because they exceeded a certain number of infractions? Even though the other infractions were years ago?
I think infractions should be removed from the poster's history after 6 months, or a year at the most, and not held against the poster forever.

I agree. The period of time in which rule violations occur is a meaningful factor. At least I think there's a clear difference in a user's intentions if they violate the rules 5 times in a single month, or if someone who's in the forum for 10 years accumulates 5 strikes by breaking a rule once every 2 years. The first case might probably be a troll or intending to cause trouble, while the second probably accidentally missteps (making a mistake once in a while can happen, without any bad intentions, it's just human).

Actually even the number of posts might make a difference. A regular poster reaches over 1.800 posts a year I they make only 5 posts a day. 1.800 posts are a much bigger source for potential errors than if someone only posts once every few weeks. Or, to put it differently: From my feeling it's not the same whether someone breaks the rules three times in in 30 posts or three times in 500 or 1000 posts. That's a completely different percentage, and I'd wager that the quota probably shows different intentions.

It would also be great if context and intention of the poster would matter. From my point of view it's also a difference if someone, as an example, mentions something that might be considered "politics" or "religion" in a lore discussion, with the clear intention to discuss lore by drawing comparisons, or whether someone openly throws insults at someone. And even if it's forbidden (I fully acknowledge that! No intention of challenging it!), someone excitedly/cheerfully posting a datamined picture of a mount they really look forward to isn't the same thing like a person making clearly racist, misogynous or homophobic statements. In terms of rule violations, the first one is an accident with no bad intentions, the second one is not. I think for a healthy, welcoming and friendly community it's important to ban users that repeatedly disrupt, insult and bully other users on purpose. But removing users for making mistakes... I'm, personally, not sure if that really helps things.

I wish such factors would be taken into consideration.

Thank you for giving us the space to talk about these things here.

AtriaKhorist

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think anyone needs to be afraid to post here, as long as they use self-moderation.

I know plenty people who would disagree.

Aurielle

Some of the things I’ve posted that have been edited or removed by mods here over the years are truly questionable. There were times when the moderation was well-deserved after I let my frustration with game performance get the better of me, but more often than not, I’ve just ended up rolling my eyes and saying “seriously?” while reading through the explanation of my wrong-doing. Won’t go into the details, but one case in particular (reply removed for “spamming” a nonsensical word supposedly unrelated to the topic) it was VERY obvious that the mod in question was not familiar with common Cyrodiil-related slang. EVERYONE in that thread would have understood my reply, because everyone in that thread played in Cyrodiil. I appealed, and the moderation was never reversed and I never received an apology or response.

spartaxoxo

Okay, I'm very nervous to post this but I suppose I should without getting too specific.

I had some posts removed where I couldn't figure how out the posts violated the specified rule. I asked the mod that issued it, they told me they weren't going to explain. I asked a different mod, they couldn't figure it out but said they'd investigate. They came back and told me support decided it was upheld but would not say why. I asked another staff member months later. They said they'd investigate. And then just never bothered to get back to me.

This was years ago but the points still affect my account and I have no idea why. That doesn't seem fair to me.

I agree that points should fall off of your account and people need to be informed why so they don't make the same mistake.

There are some things that are removed here that later get posted to Reddit that I understand their removal. As someone who has done moderator work before (again not for this company), I more or less understand that a corporate threshold will be a bit more strict than the average person. So, I could go on there and explain some things if I wanted. I will not because I don't want to be that guy. But, I could.

I say that not to brag but to show that even with that background, I have a hard time understanding some of these decisions. I'll see posts that would be allowed on any other forum I have used getting people in trouble. I see people posting there because they're terrified of posting here. And that would not be so bad if the communication was better. If you could have a reasonable conversation about how a post violated a rule.

It doesn't mean we as users are right, but there are inevitably going to be posts that the mod team feels clearly violated a rule that user wouldn't necessarily understand. Mods generally have a higher level view of threads than we do. When that happens, explanations are necessary to maintain peace and confidence. And that just doesn't happen here.

AtriaKhorist

All I'll add is that less than an hour ago my last reply was the last post on page 4 out of 5.

SilverBride

@ZOS_Kevin

I hesitate to ask because I realize that it would be a big job to take on, but would it be possible to let us present moderation we didn't understand or that did not take the context into consideration and have some of these reversed?

I_killed_Vivec

Someone I know (first rule of Ban Club... don't admit you're in Ban Club) is now reticent about commenting on the forum, they've just had a 72hr ban for commenting on the "Studio Director's Letter" thread.

Their comment was clearly satirical, but used no bad language and said nothing negative about any individuals, just the general state of the game - the usual stuff about communication, no PvP updates for umpty years, and the jabs animation.

In fact the comment was rather bland compared to the heated debates there have been on these subjects, and yet was banned for "bashing and slander"!

They didn't mention any names, nor allude to any individuals, and nobody's reputation was harmed, so not sure how it could be slander. Maybe it was just too accurate at conveying the sense of frustration over lack of meaningful communication...

I'll probably be banned just for mentioning this, which will merely confirm my own thoughts on over-enthusiastic moderation.

SilverBride

Since you will be reviewing the feedback in this thread it would be very helpful and eye opening if we were able to discuss specific moderation instances that we didn't understand, or felt were taken out of context, or were just very heavy handed by giving bans when an educational warning would have sufficed.

I know that discussing moderation is against the forum rules, but since moderation is what this thread is about could it be allowed here?

TheMajority

oh you know what else I think the way people contribute should be a thing getting looked at not just infraction

cause I'm upset when I see so many of the very best posters on this forum here saying they are worried about posting. these people got high quality posts. we need them to be voices and give complex ideas.

man, I never thought in ten billion years any of them would have trouble ever with the rules. wow.

also good to note, people here who have disagreed in the past coming together to state their opinion in civil discussing and all equally had these same problems...

interesting how it united us

also I think when a user shows that they never make the same mistake again if they let their emotion get the best of them one time that it should be forgiven. we all say stuff when we get mad on accident. you do it once in 5 years then you don't deserve it stack with another minor mistake

I also do not think forum conduct and game conduct should have a connect how you act here and how you act in game can be two different things. Why I see perma banned in game people can still post on forums, but perma banned forum people lose access to game? Please explain to me and analyze it because I believe it could be unfair. I'm not trying to be rude I just question policy.

Valion

I just wanted to add that I also have been called out at certain points.
My cultural background provides a lot of natural born irony and directness. In the rest of Germany, that's regarded as very honest, but sometimes not applicable outside of our district.
I, too, learned and thought a lot about the vast crowd of people our lines here can be read by.

I try to adopt and reflect, but then again, the last time I dropped some lines, I was completely censored.
Even though I felt in line, staying civil, and pointing towards a problem of which I really think that it should be adressed carefully, namely the increase in costs for cosmetic items, I was given a warning. And - to my disconcert - my question about the "why" was totally ignored by the Mod.
Now, I think that is kind of baiting, too.

In fact, certain matters and topics are - in my humble opinion - getting censored for being undesired.
Financial aspects or addiction prevention, to name some.
The sad thing is - these matters are potentially a risk towards the longlivity of the game we love.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to chime in here. Thank you starting the thread and having the discussion. One of the things we’ve always strived for with moderation is leading with education with community guidelines in mind. Personally, I know I have worked with several folks over the last few years to clarify guidelines or help reverse actions if comments were taken out of context. We are not trying to stifle conversation.

However, given some of the feedback in the thread, we can always adjust. In the new year, we’ll review the feedback in this thread and reach out to some of you via DM to get additional feedback. We can then chat with the moderation team and go from there.

The point of the forums is to have conversation. Both about the fun and cool things you love about ESO and for us to get feedback on where we can improve. We want to empower everyone to have challenging and engaging discourse, without breaking community guidelines. Thanks again for raising the topic and we’ll work toward a better balance here.

@ZOS_Kevin to add to the feedback the forum has been overly moderated for a very long time, its one of the reason why it's so inactive (at least on the PVP side)

For example: # 200506-003796

wilykcat

The moderators are doing a great job keeping the forums safe, clean, and civil. I appreciate them and all their hard work. They are also very good at communicating too.

I have no problem with posting on this forum as I strive to do my best at following the rules.

Rowjoh

XSTRONG wrote: »

If I think they are wrong on removing my post etc etc, where do I report them?

Answering their mail does nothing.

you could stage a protest, as long as it's peaceful, doesn't cause an obstruction or cause damage to public property.

(or you could simply re-write and re-post your point making sure it doesnt contravene any of the T's and C's).

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

Since you will be reviewing the feedback in this thread it would be very helpful and eye opening if we were able to discuss specific moderation instances that we didn't understand, or felt were taken out of context, or were just very heavy handed by giving bans when an educational warning would have sufficed.
I know that discussing moderation is against the forum rules, but since moderation is what this thread is about could it be allowed here?

I wouldn't mind to share some examples to discuss. Sometimes I truly don't understand how a statement that I made with nothing but good intentions, to be informative, to answer someone's question, was classified as a rule violation.

And I also feel that often a simple notification that a topic is not seen as suitable for the forum would be sufficient, without any need for a serious warning or even a ban. I think most of us users are not here as enemies, and have no intention of harming the game, the community, or the developers. Most of us are here out of interest or even passion for the game or for TES in general, and our intention is to connect with other people who feel the same, to discuss lore, or to give feedback about what we like and dislike so ESO can improve and flourish.

JavaRen

One thing the moderation team could do would be to share a (nonexhaustive) list of examples of violations of the more vague rules. Bonus points if they could use real posts (with information identifying the poster removed).

OtarTheMad

It has been bad. I’ve definitely been a lot more cautious. Some dings I’ve earned but some others I haven’t and it’s just pushing me away.

One example was someone was following me from thread to thread commenting on everything I said, trying to spark an argument. I reported them but nothing. Long story short I ended up getting dinged, that’s when I stopped coming here as much as I used to.

Loved back and forth, loved learning through different opinions and etc but it’s just not worth losing my account over.

NotNi.ya

@ZOS_Kevin there is 1 mod in particular who seems to have an issue with anything and everything, personally i posted on the bg stream post telling people to stop bashing the devs and it got removed for baiting and bashing *rolls eyes* sometimes you cant even type anything without 1 mod removing it. my friend left the forums because EVERY post she did this 1 particular mod would always remove it, she even got a ban for giving her thought on the performance issues that were actually nicely written without any baiting or what ever it was she got banned for.

Ragnarok0130

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jcaceresw wrote: »

I do understand your examples. Mine were like #3 (I like to give a lots of detail even use bulleted paragraphs to organize them better). Like I said, they still got removed and got flagged directly. I did notice some other users were a lot rude or bashful and they just get their comments edited. Granted those edits were done by different moderators. Mine is always the same one who delete them.

Yeah, I have definitely seen ones that I don't think most of us would call bashing that got removed. It's definitely a real problem. I agree with that. I have seen the same.

"Bashing" seems to be the catch all infraction for the mods to cite in order to remove inconvenient posts when they don't violate any specific rule - we've all seen it time and again from specific mods. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the mods since I moderate a game forum with a spicy player base but clear rules and impartial enforcement are the moderators' and community's friend. Nothing deteriorates the community sentiment, morale, and relationship with Mods/CMs faster than opaque or fluid standards of conduct and enforcement.

JustLovely

SilverBride wrote: »

My biggest issue is that past infractions NEVER fall off.

Please clarify if this is how this works. If a poster makes a mistake years ago, has no infractions for a few more years, then messes up and says something they shouldn't have, is it all added up together? And could they then be considered a bad actor and be permanently banned because they exceeded a certain number of infractions? Even though the other infractions were years ago?

I think infractions should be removed from the poster's history after 6 months, or a year at the most, and not held against the poster forever.

This is a very good point. Every warning and action taken against a poster is assigned a certain number of demerit points. So even if the action was arbitrary or inaccurate or just plain unwarranted that action is forever held against the account. Once an account accrues a certain number of demerit points it's game over with no chance for appeal due to reaching the maximum allowed demerits. (I'm using the term demerit on purpose to give context to the system)

I think eliminating these demerit points after six months would be a totally reasonable solution to the treatment and allow for people to not be forever punished for being over moderated.

SkaiFaith

katanagirl1 wrote: »

You non-native English speakers sound just fine to me. It’s the native English speakers from America posting things about “should of” done something that just kill me, lol.

I learn English every day online from random people's comments since it's not my native language, and every single time I read "should of" or similar errors I genuinely question my knowledge and doubt that maybe I am the one who gets it wrong. Thank you for clarifying this XD

Language barrier (a lacking vocabulary on my part) and cultural differences can make things difficult.
For example here where I am things like teasing, being sarcastic and witty or a little provocative are quite the norm, and are frequently used in friendly banter and even flirting, so I'm always surprised when something I type for fun without ANY, not even the minimum intention to offend but just joke around, gets taken as an offense.
I'm used to people with "quite a thick skin" and I get disappointed myself when something I say gets taken too seriously or as something bad. I never have the intention to offend or hurt but unfortunately I can get misunderstood. I'm used to think that the intention is what matters, so I tend to justify myself with the mods saying that I genuinely have no bad intentions because it's the truth and I wouldn't know how to defend myself otherwise.

Obviously if someone acts with clear bad intentions there needs to be an action against them. But I find difficult to draw the line for myself on this forum since the way I would express myself in real life with people around me seems to be "too much" for this instance. I get confused and discouraged to comment...

(Sorry for my broken English XD)

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

MercilessnVexed

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Case in point... see above.

I, too, have almost quit coming here for the over moderating.

As for the points, I should think they would consider letting them fall off over time. Even driving infractions don't follow you forever. This isn't prison. Is it?? Oh dear. Maybe it IS prison and we're in another dimension. Oh no, watch my dark humor get me in trouble.

spartaxoxo

One thing I will point out about consistency that I don't think many realize is this forum is too big for the mods to catch every single thing. A lot of times they rely on flagging to catch behavior the community feels is problematic. And the users themselves will be inconsistent in what they flag because of a variety of different reasons. Some of it is because the community is made of individuals with different ideas about what counts as trolling, bashing, etc. And even if they think it technically counts, they may feel its too minor to flag because they wouldn't want to mess up someone's else's account over it.

Some of it is because the community may be more emotional about a change and thus quicker to flag something that would never get flagged otherwise (something mods should be aware of and be even more careful than usual about accidentally validating false flags). Certain users and mods may have minor variations in what they consider to be against the rules and what is not.

Moderation is a group effort with a TON of different individuals in the group. It's impossible to standardize to the extent you'd see in a smaller community.

Which is why communication, a willingness to consider that a flag may not be fair, and a fair appeals process is all the more important. Personally, those are three things that I feel that this site falls short on.

SilverBride

A poster may flag a post that consists entirely of them being criticized by another poster that doesn't agree with their view. Instead of just debating the topic, which is one of the forum rules, the poster resorted to insults and sometimes false accusations against the poster they disagreed with.

Sometimes these type of posts are snipped, but other times these insults are just left in the thread and allowed, even though they are clearly against the forum rules and have been reported as such.

This type of inconsistency is hard to accept, especially in light of bans being given for things like a poor choice of wording without malice by the poster.

spartaxoxo

Context matters when it comes to whether or not addressing another user is against the rules (or at least it should).

The following are examples not real posts referring to any real events. Any resemblance to a real person, place, or comment is purely coincidence.

If someone says something like "I play x way and everyone else should too." Then it's fair to say "I don't like the same things you like and I don't think we should have to play the same." Then that shouldn't be removed.

If someone says "I like playing this way and everyone else should too." And the response is "Well you're a scrub and crazy town banana pants" then that should be removed.

I don't flag people merely for saying something about me and I understand perfectly well that if I make my own or another's playstyle the subject of the conversation, it is perfectly fair for mine to be commented on.

I save the flagging for things that get overly personal and flaming because that's what's against the rules. I suspect the mods consider this same criteria as that's how it is on most forums. In my experience, the mods are pretty good about removing personal insults and sometimes are a little too strict on what they consider an insult. I don't see much flaming of other users staying up for long. And I wouldn't that to get any stricter than it already is.

SilverBride

What if someone says something similar to "All your posts are complaints about this thing and that thing and this other thing, and maybe you shouldn't be playing MMOs."

Accusations are being made that may not even be true, and the poster is being told they have no business playing an MMO. There is no way to interpret that other than being critical and making personal judgements about a poster rather than discussing the topic, which is a clear forum rule. Yet despite this the post is not always removed.

spartaxoxo

I would consider that overly personal and should probably be removed as it is not on the subject of commentary but rather discussing a user's post history. I wouldn't issue a ban for that comment but would delete it, personally.

But I'm not a moderator for this company nor am I employed by ZOS, so I can't speak to why that would be left up.

SilverBride

I can't understand why it would be left up either.

I also don't think a ban should be given, but similar posts should be removed and a warning given to the poster. I do not think bans should be handed out nearly as frequently as they are now.

SeaGtGruff

MJallday wrote: »

the problem is on this board is that if there is any HINT of critisism of this game,it gets shut down.

The large number of threads and posts in this forum which are critical of the game would seem to refute that. It might be how you and others feel, but I don't think it holds up.

In fact, occasionally someone will start a thread which basically praises the game or the devs, and THAT type of thread may vanish without a trace, too, so clearly the determining factors cannot simply be whether comments are critical or laudatory, but something more than that.

If you're struggling to find a way to express yourself without bashing or baiting, my best advice is to just step away from the keyboard-- or phone, or tablet-- and go do something else for a while, to give yourself time to depressurize and settle down. Trust me, I need to do that sort of thing a lot!