Discussion : Joining Encounter in Progress is destroying dungeon experience

Northwold

Just a note that Imperial City Prison is not impossible to solo just very, very fiddly, and you don't need a nightblade to do it. And because I don't want them to nerf the immensely annoying route past the gates, I'm saying no more!

Separately, while I don't want encounter in progress to be removed -- it definitely has its uses -- I don't see any reason not to make it optional unless for some reason the game engine doesn't allow for this.

the1andonlyskwex

Northwold wrote: »

Separately, while I don't want encounter in progress to be removed -- it definitely has its uses -- I don't see any reason not to make it optional unless for some reason the game engine doesn't allow for this.

The reason to not make it optional is that you're in a group to help your groupmates complete the dungeon, not to wander around on your own.

Northwold

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Separately, while I don't want encounter in progress to be removed -- it definitely has its uses -- I don't see any reason not to make it optional unless for some reason the game engine doesn't allow for this.

The reason to not make it optional is that you're in a group to help your groupmates complete the dungeon, not to wander around on your own.

I agree with others on this that given the way some people play dungeons -- they speed run, ignoring the group for their own ends -- there is no reason whatever why the rest of the group should be forced to accommodate their selfish play style. If people want to play dungeons as fast as humanly possible, ruining it for everyone else, they should solo them. It's they who aren't helping the group, not everyone else.

spartaxoxo

Northwold wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Separately, while I don't want encounter in progress to be removed -- it definitely has its uses -- I don't see any reason not to make it optional unless for some reason the game engine doesn't allow for this.

The reason to not make it optional is that you're in a group to help your groupmates complete the dungeon, not to wander around on your own.

I agree with others on this that given the way some people play dungeons -- they speed run, ignoring the group for their own ends -- there is no reason whatever why the rest of the group should be forced to accommodate their selfish play style. If people want to play dungeons as fast as humanly possible, ruining it for everyone else, they should solo them. It's they who aren't helping the group, not everyone else.

Who says it's ruined for everyone else? Many people prefer a speedier dungeon or at least have no opinion one way or another. If everyone else wants to slow down, they can kick the speedy person. If everyone wants to move fast, it's the slow person that is causing problems because anyone decent would wait at the boss for them. Now, they don't gotta. Also, parties where a speedy person is causing the issues at least won't miss the boss.

Who is a problem depends on the group. There is no set behavior that is automatically a problem, short of afk trolling.

Northwold

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Separately, while I don't want encounter in progress to be removed -- it definitely has its uses -- I don't see any reason not to make it optional unless for some reason the game engine doesn't allow for this.

The reason to not make it optional is that you're in a group to help your groupmates complete the dungeon, not to wander around on your own.

I agree with others on this that given the way some people play dungeons -- they speed run, ignoring the group for their own ends -- there is no reason whatever why the rest of the group should be forced to accommodate their selfish play style. If people want to play dungeons as fast as humanly possible, ruining it for everyone else, they should solo them. It's they who aren't helping the group, not everyone else.

Who says it's ruined for everyone else? Many people prefer a speedier dungeon or at least have no opinion one way or another. If everyone else wants to slow down, they can kick the speedy person. If everyone wants to move fast, it's the slow person that is causing problems because anyone decent would wait at the boss for them. Now, they don't gotta. Also, parties where a speedy person is causing the issues at least won't miss the boss.

Who is a problem depends on the group. There is no set behavior that is automatically a problem, short of afk trolling.

Fair. I don't wholly disagree with what you say -- what I disagreed with in the post replied to was the insinuation that "helping the group" must be forced to mean keeping up with the fastest player. When I have, rarely, played groups, in my opinion the fastest player has been the problem, not everyone else. But as you say opinions will differ with each group. What isn't clear is why, in your example, the same argument shouldn't apply in reverse if the slow player is the problem -- they can equally be kicked, so why should the system force one type of behaviour over the other.

I wonder if there's an engine problem in play here (for all dungeons or specific dungeons where the outcome of boss fights triggers a change in the dungeon state) and whether boss fights are treated in some way differently. One alternative would be a mechanism that prevents outliers in the group from getting too far ahead or behind by pulling them to the location of the two middle players, and preventing the activation of boss fights without two group members being present (although the latter, in terms of player immersion, would need a lot of work to not look silly to the player furthest ahead).

spartaxoxo

Northwold wrote: »

Fair. I don't wholly disagree with what you say -- what I disagreed with in the post replied to was the insinuation that "helping the group" must be forced to mean keeping up with the fastest player. When I have, rarely, played groups, in my opinion the fastest player has been the problem, not everyone else. But as you say opinions will differ with each group.

That's definitely fair, it's definitely more often the fast one causing problems in my experience.

Northwold wrote: »

What isn't clear is why, in your example, the same argument shouldn't apply in reverse if the slow player is the problem -- they can equally be kicked, so why should the system force one type of behaviour over the other.

Because being slow often isn't being done on purpose, unlike being fast. For example, tanks move slower due to heavy armor penalties and new players may not have speed bonuses. This can result in players missing bosses entirely or getting locked behind gates, despite them doing their best to keep up. The same isn't true the other way around.

Northwold wrote: »

I wonder if there's an engine problem in play here (for all dungeons or specific dungeons where the outcome of boss fights triggers a change in the dungeon state) and whether boss fights are treated in some way differently. One alternative would be a mechanism that prevents outliers in the group from getting too far ahead or behind by pulling them to the location of the two middle players, and preventing the activation of boss fights without two group members being present (although the latter, in terms of player immersion, would need a lot of work to not look silly to the player furthest ahead).

Yeah, some games make you wait at the boss. IDK if this game's engine can handle that.

AlnilamE

If we're in a dungeon with lots of containers, for example (I"m looking at you Castle Thorn and Moonhunter Keep!), I usually stay in the group when I leave the instance and let the others know they can explore at their leisure.

antihero_kazuma

I'm not sure if anyone else has had this experience, but on scale caller peak once you finish the boss fight and the run is over you are not able to look around for missed chests. The second you go back to the previous room it says "joining encounter in progress" despite the final boss being down. Not really a fan of this "feature."

gamergirldk

saying that you need quest dont do jack ***, was in a random today, 2 low lev 30 ish and 2 high lev me and a tank, he just storm through all . I stayed with them so they did not die from mobs trying to catch up. we got pulled to all boss fights

redlink1979

It was far worse when you missed the xp and the loot because someone just decided to rush all the way and you didn't arrive in time to any of the encounters.

Destai

Honestly, I love this feature. I completely get why people might not, but it prevents groups being disjointed. If someone, for whatever reason, gets left behind, this addresses that. Like just earlier, I was running Castle Thorn and got stuck in combat. The group had run ahead and I got pulled into the boss fight so we could progress. There's definitely some upsides.

Soarora

antihero_kazuma wrote: »

I'm not sure if anyone else has had this experience, but on scale caller peak once you finish the boss fight and the run is over you are not able to look around for missed chests. The second you go back to the previous room it says "joining encounter in progress" despite the final boss being down. Not really a fan of this "feature."

That seems like a bug. I often have to go through the door and come back to get Jorvulds to go through his animations again so I can talk to him and never seen this pop up.

Wuduwasa13

I love it. Long overdue. Keep up the good work ZOS devs.

thorwyn

gamergirldk wrote: »

saying that you need quest dont do jack ***, was in a random today, 2 low lev 30 ish and 2 high lev me and a tank, he just storm through all . I stayed with them so they did not die from mobs trying to catch up. we got pulled to all boss fights

Just because that happened once does NOT mean saying "quest" doesn't do ***. I can not remember a situation where a quester was ignored. Don't generalize, keep communicating.

DeadlySerious

There are trolls that will just stand at the entrance and wait to be kicked or get a free completion of the dungeon.

The current solution is the best middle of the road solution to the problem I think. It's not perfect, but it's a decent compromise to get people progressing through dungeons as intended.

Necrotech_Master

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

that was a mechanic? never heard or seen anyone do that even back in 2014 when i was first running the dungeon on vet lol

nowadays even on vet can mostly just tank and burn him in the middle

Arunei

People always excuse speedrunning saying "if you want to go slow do a premade" like...lolnah?

If people want to blitz through dungeons then they can either solo or do the premade. You're in a group, not by yourself, don't run ahead and make everyone else bolt through a dungeon just because you can't stand to take ten or so minutes to run it normally.

New people, people doing the quest, people who just want to take it easy, people looking for Chests or other things for Leads...plenty of people don't want to just rush rush rush through a dungeon whatever reason. If you want to, take your own advice and stop making it everyone else's responsibility to make premade groups just to justify your impatience.

Alpheu5

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

It's still possible. I've done the cheese 3 times this week.

Cellithor

Metafae wrote: »

The problem isn't this feature, the problem is expecting everyone to play your way when you queued for a random.

You get what you get. If you don't like it, do a premade.

I have to agree with this. It goes both ways, too. The one person trying to loot every container and listen to every NPC all the way through cannot expect everyone to go along with that. Equally, if there's one person just ramming through the entire dungeon and skipping adds, they shouldn't be surprised if they get kicked or told off in group chat.

I always personally just go along with what the majority of the group seems to be motivated to do. I can solo dungeons on an alt for the story.

SpiritofESO

The reality is that people are at different levels of awareness when they enter a random dungeon. Some are alert and ready to go, others are distracted and hang around the entrance for a minute or so. The best way to deal with this is using the Joining Encounter in Progress so that way all four members of the dungeon group will be present and, whether they contribute 100% or not, they are still able to get the XP, the loot and the credit from the boss.

The other thing is that the "fake tank" issue has forced me to always run dungeons as the tank, having skilled up my main Nightblade (Bosmer, good stamina racial passives) character to do so. And since I've played the game for about five and a half years now, this allows me to use my knowledge of the dungeon mechanics to take a bit more control over the flow through the dungeon. My process is to race ahead, gather a large group of enemies which then allows us to wipe them out, generally at a choke-point like a passageway. This works really well and you get all of the XP for everybody, and it is more fun and more challenging to kill 30 or 40 trash mobs in a big group rather than just three or five of them. This clears the dungeon, gets all the XP and all the loot, and allows you to engage the next boss with all four members at the same time.

Also, since you are likely to have one or two sub-level-50 players running the dungeon with you, they may be running the dungeon for the first time on that character and might need to kill all the dungeon bosses to complete the initial dungeon quest. Common courtesy dictates that we make an allowance for those players.

And, by the way, I always stop to open (force lock) chests along the way, and I am fully aware that not all PUG members are interested in looting chests. If you want to collect supplies or resources from containers in the dungeon, you have about two minutes after the final boss is killed to go back and run the dungeon quickly to gather your supplies.

Generally, my idea for running dungeons is to, yes, be quick about it but also to clear all trash mobs so that you get the XP and the loot and also clear all sub-bosses and the main boss. If I am running in a PUG and someone wants to "shortcut" the dungeon I will simply leave the group because I don't believe that's the "proper" way a dungeon should be run.

So then, overall, I think that the feature of Joining Encounter in Progress is, on the whole, worthwhile.

MorganaLaVey

Arunei wrote: »

People always excuse speedrunning saying "if you want to go slow do a premade" like...lolnah?

People excuse any behavior saying that. And the majority of players enjoy the "Play how you want" anachie in PUG's.
So the only thing i can recommend is to take the advice of "do a premade" because its not gonna change.

EF321

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

that was a mechanic? never heard or seen anyone do that even back in 2014 when i was first running the dungeon on vet lol

nowadays even on vet can mostly just tank and burn him in the middle

Yes, it is probably one of the most unknown mechanics in the game, learned it from one of the tanks while pugging, and have seen only a couple of other tanks do it in many many runs .
I've checked some guides that appear on top of google search, and only Alcast mentions it:

This boss has a very unique mechanic which most of the players aren’t aware of. If the tank especially knows about this mechanic, this fight will be a lot faster!

It indeed was making fight a lost faster, boss was taking, idk, 20-30% of health in a few seconds from it. But positioning had to be very precise, wasn't always getting it right on first attempt.

Edit: Found a video of someone trying it, you can see at 0:38-0:43 how it's health drops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpyfMxm6pI

Soarora

Cellithor wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

The problem isn't this feature, the problem is expecting everyone to play your way when you queued for a random.

You get what you get. If you don't like it, do a premade.

I have to agree with this. It goes both ways, too. The one person trying to loot every container and listen to every NPC all the way through cannot expect everyone to go along with that. Equally, if there's one person just ramming through the entire dungeon and skipping adds, they shouldn't be surprised if they get kicked or told off in group chat.

I always personally just go along with what the majority of the group seems to be motivated to do. I can solo dungeons on an alt for the story.

The stance I go with is I run ahead* (*kind of, if I have a source of expedition it’s rapids and I give rapids to everyone I can) and do most skips but I don’t actually pull until:
- at least one DPS on the way (but preferably the entire group. I wait for whole group before pulling a BOSS unless one person is out trying to solo a side boss or something)
- people are being so slow I get bored/annoyed and pull

Note: I queue as real tank (and I usually do VET. If I do NORM it’s to level skills or grind gear), so I can’t really kill anything.
If I queue DPS I will not run ahead of the tank unless the tank is being obscenely slow (like not sprinting or having any source of expedition).

Necrotech_Master

EF321 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

that was a mechanic? never heard or seen anyone do that even back in 2014 when i was first running the dungeon on vet lol

nowadays even on vet can mostly just tank and burn him in the middle

Yes, it is probably one of the most unknown mechanics in the game, learned it from one of the tanks while pugging, and have seen only a couple of other tanks do it in many many runs .
I've checked some guides that appear on top of google search, and only Alcast mentions it:

This boss has a very unique mechanic which most of the players aren’t aware of. If the tank especially knows about this mechanic, this fight will be a lot faster!

It indeed was making fight a lost faster, boss was taking, idk, 20-30% of health in a few seconds from it. But positioning had to be very precise, wasn't always getting it right on first attempt.

Edit: Found a video of someone trying it, you can see at 0:38-0:43 how it's health drops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpyfMxm6pI

interesting, though i dont think i would call it a "mechanic" lol

it is an interesting trick though, or even possibly a bug that the boss takes dmg from the fire traps on the floor, especially that much dmg

EF321

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

that was a mechanic? never heard or seen anyone do that even back in 2014 when i was first running the dungeon on vet lol

nowadays even on vet can mostly just tank and burn him in the middle

Yes, it is probably one of the most unknown mechanics in the game, learned it from one of the tanks while pugging, and have seen only a couple of other tanks do it in many many runs .
I've checked some guides that appear on top of google search, and only Alcast mentions it:

This boss has a very unique mechanic which most of the players aren’t aware of. If the tank especially knows about this mechanic, this fight will be a lot faster!

It indeed was making fight a lost faster, boss was taking, idk, 20-30% of health in a few seconds from it. But positioning had to be very precise, wasn't always getting it right on first attempt.

Edit: Found a video of someone trying it, you can see at 0:38-0:43 how it's health drops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpyfMxm6pI

interesting, though i dont think i would call it a "mechanic" lol

it is an interesting trick though, or even possibly a bug that the boss takes dmg from the fire traps on the floor, especially that much dmg

Don't think this is a bug, mobs typically don't take environmental damage, something like this has to be coded deliberately. Plus the fact that Maw has a lot more health than any other non-final base game boss (5.7 mil on vet), before I learned this I was wondering why is it so fat.

sarahthes

EF321 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

In Banished Cells 2 you literally can't do Maw mechanic anymore, because you keep getting teleported to middle of the room when trying to position Maw on the grill.

that was a mechanic? never heard or seen anyone do that even back in 2014 when i was first running the dungeon on vet lol

nowadays even on vet can mostly just tank and burn him in the middle

Yes, it is probably one of the most unknown mechanics in the game, learned it from one of the tanks while pugging, and have seen only a couple of other tanks do it in many many runs .
I've checked some guides that appear on top of google search, and only Alcast mentions it:

This boss has a very unique mechanic which most of the players aren’t aware of. If the tank especially knows about this mechanic, this fight will be a lot faster!

It indeed was making fight a lost faster, boss was taking, idk, 20-30% of health in a few seconds from it. But positioning had to be very precise, wasn't always getting it right on first attempt.

Edit: Found a video of someone trying it, you can see at 0:38-0:43 how it's health drops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQpyfMxm6pI

interesting, though i dont think i would call it a "mechanic" lol

it is an interesting trick though, or even possibly a bug that the boss takes dmg from the fire traps on the floor, especially that much dmg

Don't think this is a bug, mobs typically don't take environmental damage, something like this has to be coded deliberately. Plus the fact that Maw has a lot more health than any other non-final base game boss (5.7 mil on vet), before I learned this I was wondering why is it so fat.

It shouldn't really be an issue in 2024 to kill this boss quickly when so...

SteveCampsOut

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

I don't know where you've been, but this is not new. It's been going on for over a year now.

It is new for the below dungeons which only had the feature added in update 44, which is what the original poster was reffering to.

zharkovian wrote: »

new players can no longer enjoy the lower level dungeons

Wayrest Sewers II
Elden Hollow II
Cradle of Shadows
Fungal Grotto II
Banished Cells II
Vaults of Madness
Selene's Web
Blessed Crucible
Blackheart Haven
Volenfell
Tempest Island
Direfrost Keep
Crypt of Hearts I
City of Ash I
Arx Corinium
Wayrest Sewers I
Elden Hollow I
Darkshade Caverns I
Spindleclutch I
Fungal Grotto I
Banished Cells I

Yeah, I experienced it just yesterday in Banished Cells, and I've got to agree with the OP that this is now too aggressive. I was running toward the encounter and saw them fighting the boss and then I was suddenly in my long ass loading screen which took longer to join the fight than it would have taken if the game had just let me finish running in. This is a problem!

YandereGirlfriend

This is a great change.

If you want to listen to every NPC and read every book then join a casual guild and do that with some friends. Everyone wins that way.

SteveCampsOut

Arunei wrote: »

People always excuse speedrunning saying "if you want to go slow do a premade" like...lolnah?

If people want to blitz through dungeons then they can either solo or do the premade. You're in a group, not by yourself, don't run ahead and make everyone else bolt through a dungeon just because you can't stand to take ten or so minutes to run it normally.

New people, people doing the quest, people who just want to take it easy, people looking for Chests or other things for Leads...plenty of people don't want to just rush rush rush through a dungeon whatever reason. If you want to, take your own advice and stop making it everyone else's responsibility to make premade groups just to justify your impatience.

Simply put, if it's just one person "Speed Running ahead", That person is the problem! And any mechanic that doesn't allow people to go back through the dungeon for looting purposes after the fight is over is a PROBLEM! Why they can't just implement the Portals to Join the Encounter In Progress that previously allowed people joining a party mid-dungeon is beyond me.

Elvenheart

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

People always excuse speedrunning saying "if you want to go slow do a premade" like...lolnah?

If people want to blitz through dungeons then they can either solo or do the premade. You're in a group, not by yourself, don't run ahead and make everyone else bolt through a dungeon just because you can't stand to take ten or so minutes to run it normally.

New people, people doing the quest, people who just want to take it easy, people looking for Chests or other things for Leads...plenty of people don't want to just rush rush rush through a dungeon whatever reason. If you want to, take your own advice and stop making it everyone else's responsibility to make premade groups just to justify your impatience.

Simply put, if it's just one person "Speed Running ahead", That person is the problem! And any mechanic that doesn't allow people to go back through the dungeon for looting purposes after the fight is over is a PROBLEM! Why they can't just implement the Portals to Join the Encounter In Progress that previously allowed people joining a party mid-dungeon is beyond me.

I’ve always felt that there shouldn’t be a two minute kick timer at the end of a dungeon run. I wish there wasn’t one at all and the session just ended when the last person left the dungeon, but if there has to be a timer for server purposes then I wish it was ten minutes instead of two.