Can we please get some answers about the future of PVP? @ZOS_Kevin

Smashadamz · November 12

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it. There are glaring issues that could be fixed in 1 hour with a hotfix but we get radio silence for large amounts of time. Why don't all of these good suggestions get replies? I play this game, possibly the MOST out of anyone on NA, for specifically BGs. There is absolutely no way that the devs or team that works on PVP actually play it daily or anything past "testing". We want to know what you are going to do about cross healing, every other post is about it. We want to know why in 4v4 non deathmatch games start with 1 objective so it turns into whoever just gets to it faster and then self heals/tanks for 5mins. We want to know why there are lobbies being started without enough people when dungeons and other systems in-game already have UI in place that won't start the activity until everyone is ready. We want to know why there are medal based leaderboards that no one wants. They should be removed entirely and the only thing that should matter is Win/Loss with a way to see your rating go up or down, it just makes even more healers/tanks due to getting high score. I've been rank 1 multiple times just by going aoe healing over time build for 1 day of the 7 and getting insane points whereas when I'm dmg you get 1/4 the amount, which shouldn't even matter! You can lose every single game but if you are healing you will be rank 1 for the week? So between medals not being fair across the board and the fact it is just time put in, no one actually cares about it. Just because there isn't a better game to fit what we want to play, doesn't mean you all should just give up and look at charts to determine what changes to make. I would love to have a chat through voice or email with the dev team if they want to hear from someone who literally NO-LIFEs MMOs to help them hear what hardcore AND casuals want. Some of the new changes have been great but overall it has just shown the issues that the game already has and it is showcased even more. With having a streamer event soon with one of the biggest youtubers SypherPK, you have a real chance to get so many people back into this game for the pvp, if I was him and played some matches, it is just going to show how bad the systems are at the moment. I already made a previous post on changes that could be done overnight that the community talks about often. We just need more open communication, your PVP players feel like you don't care. The saddest thing is all the people holding out hope because of this games insane potential to be great. I can't speak for everyone in the community but posts like these are not to say the game is trash and no one should play it, it is us reaching out and hoping you all will put time and energy into a game we love being a part of. Please open the lines of communication up and show us you want to make PVP more fun for everyone.
- Smashadamz

gariondavey · November 13

@ZOS_Kevin please check out this thread

Rhaegar75 · November 13

Smashadamz wrote: »

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it. There are glaring issues that could be fixed in 1 hour with a hotfix but we get radio silence for large amounts of time. Why don't all of these good suggestions get replies? I play this game, possibly the MOST out of anyone on NA, for specifically BGs. There is absolutely no way that the devs or team that works on PVP actually play it daily or anything past "testing". We want to know what you are going to do about cross healing, every other post is about it. We want to know why in 4v4 non deathmatch games start with 1 objective so it turns into whoever just gets to it faster and then self heals/tanks for 5mins. We want to know why there are lobbies being started without enough people when dungeons and other systems in-game already have UI in place that won't start the activity until everyone is ready. We want to know why there are medal based leaderboards that no one wants. They should be removed entirely and the only thing that should matter is Win/Loss with a way to see your rating go up or down, it just makes even more healers/tanks due to getting high score. I've been rank 1 multiple times just by going aoe healing over time build for 1 day of the 7 and getting insane points whereas when I'm dmg you get 1/4 the amount, which shouldn't even matter! You can lose every single game but if you are healing you will be rank 1 for the week? So between medals not being fair across the board and the fact it is just time put in, no one actually cares about it. Just because there isn't a better game to fit what we want to play, doesn't mean you all should just give up and look at charts to determine what changes to make. I would love to have a chat through voice or email with the dev team if they want to hear from someone who literally NO-LIFEs MMOs to help them hear what hardcore AND casuals want. Some of the new changes have been great but overall it has just shown the issues that the game already has and it is showcased even more. With having a streamer event soon with one of the biggest youtubers SypherPK, you have a real chance to get so many people back into this game for the pvp, if I was him and played some matches, it is just going to show how bad the systems are at the moment. I already made a previous post on changes that could be done overnight that the community talks about often. We just need more open communication, your PVP players feel like you don't care. The saddest thing is all the people holding out hope because of this games insane potential to be great. I can't speak for everyone in the community but posts like these are not to say the game is trash and no one should play it, it is us reaching out and hoping you all will put time and energy into a game we love being a part of. Please open the lines of communication up and show us you want to make PVP more fun for everyone.
- Smashadamz

Fully seconded!!

Moonspawn · November 14

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

darvaria · November 14

Well, considering Microsoft's position and the recent events with ZOS, can you really hope for anything substantial in the future????

Joy_Division · November 14

Smashadamz wrote: »

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it.

You've answered your own question.

Combat team is tiny. Still haven't finished projects from years ago (hybridization, Grave Lord's Sacrifice, etc_). ZOS doesn't even have a full time PvP dev (the overloaded combat lead is also the PvP dev).

Moonspawn wrote: »

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

All healing/Shielding in the game is too strong, too easy, and too accessible. Squishy healers are not not the problem because 1) they explode and heal nobody 2) don;t exist in good group comps.

Moonspawn · November 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

Smashadamz wrote: »

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it.

You've answered your own question.

Combat team is tiny. Still haven't finished projects from years ago (hybridization, Grave Lord's Sacrifice, etc_). ZOS doesn't even have a full time PvP dev (the overloaded combat lead is also the PvP dev).

Moonspawn wrote: »

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

All healing/Shielding in the game is too strong, too easy, and too accessible. Squishy healers are not not the problem because 1) they explode and heal nobody 2) don;t exist in good group comps.

I meant focus the squishy damage dealer. Focus the damage dealers by order of squishiness.

Smashadamz · November 15

Moonspawn wrote: »

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

I would politely disagree. Most matches in 4v4 end up with 0 deaths on both sides. This is with just 1 healer on each side, many games there are multiple. You can focus the "squishy" damage dealers like you said but after your MMR goes up a bit those no longer exist or are very rare.

Smashadamz · November 15

darvaria wrote: »

Well, considering Microsoft's position and the recent events with ZOS, can you really hope for anything substantial in the future????

I am hopeful due to them reworking BGs. I don't agree with how they did and the removal of content. Even if the team is tiny there are big, meaningful changes that a very small team could accomplish.

Smashadamz · November 15

Joy_Division wrote: »

Smashadamz wrote: »

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it.

All healing/Shielding in the game is too strong, too easy, and too accessible. Squishy healers are not not the problem because 1) they explode and heal nobody 2) don;t exist in good group comps.

I agree with this and will post a comment here from my previous thread on how they could work on this with "picking" a support vs damage dealer role.

First, I would like to say that I'm really happy that ZOS finally is adding content for PVP players. As an avid BG enjoyer over the course of my gaming life, battlegrounds in MMOs have always been my favorite. Yes, we can all agree that 7+ years for any sort of meaningful update reminds us that most of the player base enjoys PVE, the same was with WoW, but I think with more open communication and some constructive criticism. We could see players really try to get more into PVP with just a few changes. I'm someone who spent 14+ hours a day for months to get Emperor when the game first came out on Wabbajack, quit when there were bugs that didn't get fixed. I came back when they added BGs, quit when they didn't care about solo/group play for years. Now I'm back this summer and when they announced a "rework" for BGs I was VERY excited since they also added a few other things on the PVE side I have been enjoying. The forums are full of good ideas and posts about this update so I'm going to narrow it down to 3 things I think ZOS did good, the bad, and changes I would like prioritized or implemented.

The good-
1. They made chaos ball a lot more fun for people who typically ignore objectives. Turning into the WW or Vampire is fun and exciting.
2. I LOVE all the new maps, the designs and layout are great
3. They did a great job ( on some map/modes ) for instance dominion for 8v8 on certain maps is a blast, reminds me of old school Battlefield games where people were all over fighting for the same goals

The bad-
1. Tech issues/bugs. There are many and they already have most listed to be worked on, I personally have had 28 games not start with the not full lobby
2. Role Que- This needs to be implemented, in my opinion ,as fast as possible. I play support and during a 4v4 if there is 1 more support, no one dies on either side. I know it will take time but I think having a system similar to the PVE side of the game, when you que just put "Support" vs "DD". Yes, there are many different types of support but this I think is a great first step. Then have a system to where in 4v4 each side gets 1 support and in 8v8 each side can get up to 3max on each side. People can troll it and it won't be perfect but that seems like a good starting point and it would show ZOS is actively trying to make it a more enjoyable experience.
3. Cross healing. One of the most requested things in PVP has been to look into cross healing. My idea for a possible thing to try is if they implement the "support" role (as stated above) when you que into a match your healing would work as normal, but if you are DD it is cut by an even bigger amount with the battle spirit debuff. If not this, than each new target that heals you it is 50% less effective after your own healing.

Changes I would like to see sooner than later-
1. ZOS having a PVP or community member that is active weekly with the player base. Either someone we see in game playing with us, streaming the game, or a forum admin that all they do is talk about the PVP side of the game. When you look at these forums and there are posts from 5+ years ago, it makes it seem like they don't care, or lack of communication and updates. We just want someone who actually engages with us weekly or even monthly to let us know what they are working on and that they care about the health of the game.
2. I think many people dislike the "leaderboard" and if you go to any post about it there are many good ideas on how to make it better, I personally think they should copy/paste WoW's mmr style where you have a rating that you can actually see. Everyone starts at 0 and it goes up to... whatever they decide. You could have different unlocks for cosmetics at different thresholds that would give people incentive to grow as a player and try to win matches more often. Speaking of medals, I personally think they should be removed entirely from leaderboards and only go off of win/loss and you get more or less points depending on the other team.
3. This last change may not be popular, but I've been asking the players who are very active, veterans and new players, and a lot of people miss the 4v4v4 format. My idea would be the following... Only have 2 ques for BGs. One is Casual and one is Ranked. Casual has the option depending on how many people are queing to be the new 8v8 format OR the old 4v4v4 maps and game modes. Ranked would strictly be the 4v4 modes that they choose to leave in the game. I also have heard group queing is dead again on arrival so I vote for allowing DUOs for both modes and at least you can rotate with the friends you play with. The player base doesn't have a massive pool of players so I understand why they don't allow certain group/solo play, but I think duos would be the healthiest way and just having 2 things to que for.

I have a lot of thoughts on IC and Cyrodiil as well but for this post I mainly wanted to address BGS. My hope is ZOS and players both don't get discouraged and look at all the changes and together create a fun experience for all players. There are so many other topics I would cover surrounding the BG scene but this is already a lot of info to read over.

-BG Addict Smashadamz

Sluggy · November 17

Moonspawn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Smashadamz wrote: »

I quit WoW and numerous other MMOs for the same thing. PVE side has more players= more care, PVP goes on life support even though so many people want to love it.

You've answered your own question.

Combat team is tiny. Still haven't finished projects from years ago (hybridization, Grave Lord's Sacrifice, etc_). ZOS doesn't even have a full time PvP dev (the overloaded combat lead is also the PvP dev).

Moonspawn wrote: »

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

All healing/Shielding in the game is too strong, too easy, and too accessible. Squishy healers are not not the problem because 1) they explode and heal nobody 2) don;t exist in good group comps.

I meant focus the squishy damage dealer. Focus the damage dealers by order of squishiness.

Which one is the squishy one? The one with 35k hp, 28k armor, and 3k crit resists? Or the one with 45k hp, and 85% damage reduction but only 20k armor? Also, which one is the damage dealer? The one stacking Vigor and Rapid Regen? Or the one stacking Vigor and Arctic Blast? They all have a burst heal capable of doing 10k+. And they all have at least two HoTs ticking for 2k-4k at all times on themselves and everyone around them. Which one am I supposed to go for first again? Yeah, these are the damage dealers. We haven't even touched on the tanks and healers yet.

Jabbs_Giggity · November 18

Why did this topic state "answered" when none n one from ZOS has responded?
I second, third, fourth, whatever number we're on for OP.

Moonspawn · November 18

Sluggy wrote: »

Which one is the squishy one? The one with 35k hp, 28k armor, and 3k crit resists? Or the one with 45k hp, and 85% damage reduction but only 20k armor? Also, which one is the damage dealer? The one stacking Vigor and Rapid Regen? Or the one stacking Vigor and Arctic Blast? They all have a burst heal capable of doing 10k+. And they all have at least two HoTs ticking for 2k-4k at all times on themselves and everyone around them. Which one am I supposed to go for first again? Yeah, these are the damage dealers. We haven't even touched on the tanks and healers yet.

The second one has too much hp and not enough armor. Plus he has 85% dmg reduction because he's holding block, stun him and kill him. Move to the first target, the only real threat. This is a 4x2, because the tank and healer are only there to be heavy attacked. If the second one is only holding block, this is a 4x1.

MincMincMinc · November 26

Moonspawn wrote: »

Cross healing isn't that strong. Pointlessly parsing pure healers is the real problem. Gotta focus the squishy ones.

What, cross healing is most certainly an issue. Ever since they made hots stack groups became exponentially stronger per player.

Solo you have 1 players worth of heals on you
3 man you have 3 players worth
12 man has 12 players worth of heals at any given moment.

Prior to stacking ticks the 12 man wouldnt be fully efficient. Players couldnt stack 12 of the best heal in the game. Instead those given players may only get 4 players worth of heals. Sitting with 12 players worth of heals at any given point makes you invulnerable to really any source of damage in the game.

ZOS_Kevin · November 26

Just wanted to follow up here. Not sure why it was marked as answered also, but wanted to answer since this was directed at me. We do have additional plans for PvP generally. However, they are not ready to be shared just yet. We are looking at feedback from 2-team Battlegrounds and feedback based on the PvP livestream for us to take back and discuss with the team. Unfortunately, we can't provide more than that for now. But we are looking at everything and working on the best way to proceed from here.

MincMincMinc · November 26

darvaria wrote: »

Well, considering Microsoft's position and the recent events with ZOS, can you really hope for anything substantial in the future????

We all know the reason they did a BG pvp update. The topic finally got brought up in a board meeting. The managers were forced to put a spreadsheet together comparing player numbers and who to target for a pvp update. Surprisingly BGs had 10x the number of unique players.......obviously because of the daily login rewards for players who login and afk in a 5min bg match. Its just generic corporate bureaucracy.

Should be obvious to anyone who ACTUALLY plays the game as the BG guild only has a handful of 15-30 active players, but cyrodil has dozens of active 30man guilds still on each faction. Back when zos did the cyrodil lag tests it should have been clear to them how much cyrodil matters. Tons and tons of old names came back to the game to check out if it would return to the glory days..... but nothing came of it even though the community enjoyed the tests.

Alas, now the board will see that funding into pvp proves no benefit or draw to the game, and it'll be another 5 years before they say lets try it again. Hopefully the diehard playerbase can keep the last cyrodil campaign functioning until then. I hate sounding doomsday depressing, but we've been kicked to the curb so much that nobody is even perking up to a hype train anymore because they assume it is a false flag.

Its like a startup company who got investors to buy in by doing big product releases showcasing an unfinished product. After you showcase and try to hype a nonfunctioning product for the 10th year in a row, people catch on that you are not actually doing anything and your company flops. At a certain point the company HAS to put in the raw work to have a substantial product that makes people talk about it on their own.

SaffronCitrusflower · November 26

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Not sure why it was marked as answered also, but wanted to answer since this was directed at me. We do have additional plans for PvP generally. However, they are not ready to be shared just yet. We are looking at feedback from 2-team Battlegrounds and feedback based on the PvP livestream for us to take back and discuss with the team. Unfortunately, we can't provide more than that for now. But we are looking at everything and working on the best way to proceed from here.

The only PvP that matters to me and I believe most of the PvP community is Cyrodiil PvP. Nobody I know plays battlegrounds, but we're in Cyro minimum of 2 hours/day every day. Besides that, the game was originally designed to have Cyrodiil as the premier PvP option /end game option from the beginning.

IMO if ZOS is looking at any PvP options other than improving Cyrodiily then ya'll are missing the mark. I'm speaking from a PvP main though, and I realize there are a lot of other players out there into other aspects of the game.

Laddey · November 26

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Not sure why it was marked as answered also, but wanted to answer since this was directed at me. We do have additional plans for PvP generally. However, they are not ready to be shared just yet. We are looking at feedback from 2-team Battlegrounds and feedback based on the PvP livestream for us to take back and discuss with the team. Unfortunately, we can't provide more than that for now. But we are looking at everything and working on the best way to proceed from here.

The only PvP that matters to me and I believe most of the PvP community is Cyrodiil PvP. Nobody I know plays battlegrounds, but we're in Cyro minimum of 2 hours/day every day. Besides that, the game was originally designed to have Cyrodiil as the premier PvP option /end game option from the beginning.

IMO if ZOS is looking at any PvP options other than improving Cyrodiily then ya'll are missing the mark. I'm speaking from a PvP main though, and I realize there are a lot of other players out there into other aspects of the game.

I agree with this 100% @ZOS_Kevin - Please, please focus on Cyrodil.

Attorneyatlawl · November 26

Laddey wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Not sure why it was marked as answered also, but wanted to answer since this was directed at me. We do have additional plans for PvP generally. However, they are not ready to be shared just yet. We are looking at feedback from 2-team Battlegrounds and feedback based on the PvP livestream for us to take back and discuss with the team. Unfortunately, we can't provide more than that for now. But we are looking at everything and working on the best way to proceed from here.

The only PvP that matters to me and I believe most of the PvP community is Cyrodiil PvP. Nobody I know plays battlegrounds, but we're in Cyro minimum of 2 hours/day every day. Besides that, the game was originally designed to have Cyrodiil as the premier PvP option /end game option from the beginning.

IMO if ZOS is looking at any PvP options other than improving Cyrodiily then ya'll are missing the mark. I'm speaking from a PvP main though, and I realize there are a lot of other players out there into other aspects of the game.

I agree with this 100% @ZOS_Kevin - Please, please focus on Cyrodil.

Been awhile, but Pepperidge Farms remembers... Cyrodiil being fixed up would bring me back at this time.

silky_soft · November 27

Yea, pretty much no one playing 2 team BG. There is usually only 1 battleground going. Que times are about 9 minutes most of the time.

kiwi_tea · November 27

Laddey wrote: »

I agree with this 100% @ZOS_Kevin - Please, please focus on Cyrodil.

I think it's unlikely they will ever get the time and resources they need to fix Cyrodiil. I hope I'm wrong. But doesn't it just seem like the biggest PVP zone is broken on a fundamental, physical level?

I don't know if it is the servers are still too old and too weak, or if it is spaghetti code, or what. The server update they did gave a huge performance boost that has gradually fallen off quite a bit. Bar swaps and skill presses struggle to register in a heated fight. A whole region of the map will slow to a crawl when ball groups come nearby. They haven't *even* been able to address the stuck in combat bug *at all*. It speaks volumes that we've all learned to live with such a debilitating bug. If they can't fix such a huge bug - probably the biggest, most major ongoing bug in the game - across years and years and years, it suggests the problems with Cyrodiil are fundamental and baked in.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the best we could hope for is a full remake of the Cyrodiil experience, and that's such an enormous amount of work that I doubt they'll ever get to do it. And doing it would be fraught with huge risk, cos how well would it be executed and received?

Thumbless_Bot · November 27

kiwi_tea wrote: »

Laddey wrote: »

I agree with this 100% @ZOS_Kevin - Please, please focus on Cyrodil.

I think it's unlikely they will ever get the time and resources they need to fix Cyrodiil. I hope I'm wrong. But doesn't it just seem like the biggest PVP zone is broken on a fundamental, physical level?

I don't know if it is the servers are still too old and too weak, or if it is spaghetti code, or what. The server update they did gave a huge performance boost that has gradually fallen off quite a bit. Bar swaps and skill presses struggle to register in a heated fight. A whole region of the map will slow to a crawl when ball groups come nearby. They haven't *even* been able to address the stuck in combat bug *at all*. It speaks volumes that we've all learned to live with such a debilitating bug. If they can't fix such a huge bug - probably the biggest, most major ongoing bug in the game - across years and years and years, it suggests the problems with Cyrodiil are fundamental and baked in.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the best we could hope for is a full remake of the Cyrodiil experience, and that's such an enormous amount of work that I doubt they'll ever get to do it. And doing it would be fraught with huge risk, cos how well would it be executed and received?

Be careful what you wish for...

MincMincMinc · November 27

kiwi_tea wrote: »

Laddey wrote: »

I agree with this 100% @ZOS_Kevin - Please, please focus on Cyrodil.

I think it's unlikely they will ever get the time and resources they need to fix Cyrodiil. I hope I'm wrong. But doesn't it just seem like the biggest PVP zone is broken on a fundamental, physical level?

I don't know if it is the servers are still too old and too weak, or if it is spaghetti code, or what. The server update they did gave a huge performance boost that has gradually fallen off quite a bit. Bar swaps and skill presses struggle to register in a heated fight. A whole region of the map will slow to a crawl when ball groups come nearby. They haven't *even* been able to address the stuck in combat bug *at all*. It speaks volumes that we've all learned to live with such a debilitating bug. If they can't fix such a huge bug - probably the biggest, most major ongoing bug in the game - across years and years and years, it suggests the problems with Cyrodiil are fundamental and baked in.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the best we could hope for is a full remake of the Cyrodiil experience, and that's such an enormous amount of work that I doubt they'll ever get to do it. And doing it would be fraught with huge risk, cos how well would it be executed and received?

Cant say editing the map by a little would take more than a few days. Doesnt take much to add in some different premade assets/buildings or something to fight around.

The stuck in combat bug was fixed a while ago, but got reintroduced when the blackrose arena came out. People theorized it was due to people swapping gear between rounds.

The only lag PCNA is directly linked to ball group buff/heal stacking. But fundamentally rules would have to change like whether hots and dots stack, which many people have been asking about for half a decade now. Even sypher brought it up in the recent stream.

kiwi_tea · November 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Cant say editing the map by a little would take more than a few days. Doesnt take much to add in some different premade assets/buildings or something to fight around.

The stuck in combat bug was fixed a while ago, but got reintroduced when the blackrose arena came out. People theorized it was due to people swapping gear between rounds.

The only lag PCNA is directly linked to ball group buff/heal stacking. But fundamentally rules would have to change like whether hots and dots stack, which many people have been asking about for half a decade now. Even sypher brought it up in the recent stream.

I play on 210-230 ping from NZ, so server always feels worse from here, but even US players in my guilds seem to regularly encounter some of the strange "skill press won't register for a second or more" issues. At least I'm often reassured it isn't *just* a high ping issue.

MincMincMinc · November 27

kiwi_tea wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Cant say editing the map by a little would take more than a few days. Doesnt take much to add in some different premade assets/buildings or something to fight around.

The stuck in combat bug was fixed a while ago, but got reintroduced when the blackrose arena came out. People theorized it was due to people swapping gear between rounds.

The only lag PCNA is directly linked to ball group buff/heal stacking. But fundamentally rules would have to change like whether hots and dots stack, which many people have been asking about for half a decade now. Even sypher brought it up in the recent stream.

I play on 210-230 ping from NZ, so server always feels worse from here, but even US players in my guilds seem to regularly encounter some of the strange "skill press won't register for a second or more" issues. At least I'm often reassured it isn't *just* a high ping issue.

Kiwi seems to check out. I played with alot of people from Aus and they always complained about the rubber banding due to the desync. Generally for US players as the server loads up the first thing to go is the input buffering. Meaning if you are just button mashing, you will lose inputs. When this happens you need to slow down your inputs and trigger them in the correct order.

This is like if you were to play super smash bros brawl compared to melee. In melee it was a raw input with no buffering, but in brawl you could press buttons very close to each other and it would not override other inputs.

Since the last two midyears I really cant say I have experienced much lag in greyhost primetime US. Except when a 12-24 man ball group shows up stacking 12+ hots/buffs/procs per gcd on every person....... with no limitations or inefficiencies...... Reminds me of the days when a 12 man could all stack into a corner and crash the server by spamming healing springs. Everyone knew what was happening, yet still takes forever for action to be done.

The_Meathead · November 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The only lag PCNA is directly linked to ball group buff/heal stacking. But fundamentally rules would have to change like whether hots and dots stack, which many people have been asking about for half a decade now. Even sypher brought it up in the recent stream.

Anecdotal to say it of course, but my (PCNA) only lag happens when Ball Groups are present.

I agree strongly that Cyrodiil should be the focus of PvP efforts, too. It was *the* endgame we signed on for at Launch, and the AvAvA war in DAoC-fashion was what brought me and my friends to the game to begin with.

I realize PvE has long since become the major focus, but it's not too much to ask that Cyrodiil still be treated as important.

MincMincMinc · November 27

The_Meathead wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The only lag PCNA is directly linked to ball group buff/heal stacking. But fundamentally rules would have to change like whether hots and dots stack, which many people have been asking about for half a decade now. Even sypher brought it up in the recent stream.

Anecdotal to say it of course, but my (PCNA) only lag happens when Ball Groups are present.

I agree strongly that Cyrodiil should be the focus of PvP efforts, too. It was *the* endgame we signed on for at Launch, and the AvAvA war in DAoC-fashion was what brought me and my friends to the game to begin with.

I realize PvE has long since become the major focus, but it's not too much to ask that Cyrodiil still be treated as important.

Strange as pretty much across the board everyone including ball group players is anecdotally in agreement with what causes lag.

Kind of sad that they let a big split happen between PvE and PvP. As you pointed out, the big draw to the game early on was the endgame pvp fun. People always point out that pvp doesnt sell dlc..... which isnt true as pvpers have to get the dlc to be competitive. Then I'm sure zos is worried each patch because people log in for a week, complete the dlc and log out for the next few months.

Pve releases keep players busy for a week or two, but pvp is a self creating form of content. Think of how little investment and time has gone into cyrodil vs how many players solely kept with the game just to roam around in AvA day after day. Would you rather be a game dev with a constant playerbase that is happy with a few changes every now and then, OR the playerbase that is constantly asking for major designs to be released artwork, assets, storylines, collectibles, etc just to leave after a week. Could Eso have had a healthier consistent playerbase if PvP was maintained? Idk, I just think minimal effort could have been worth the investment.

The_Meathead · November 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Pve releases keep players busy for a week or two, but pvp is a self creating form of content. Think of how little investment and time has gone into cyrodil vs how many players solely kept with the game just to roam around in AvA day after day. Would you rather be a game dev with a constant playerbase that is happy with a few changes every now and then, OR the playerbase that is constantly asking for major designs to be released artwork, assets, storylines, collectibles, etc just to leave after a week. Could Eso have had a healthier consistent playerbase if PvP was maintained? Idk, I just think minimal effort could have been worth the investment.

Preaching to the choir, as they say, because I've always voiced the same: PvP is always self-perpetuating because our enemies are other players. I couldn't agree more.

Give us a good playground and we're golden.

Cyrodiil should be that playground.

It's honestly not terrible as it is now, but it could use a little love and Ball Groups' Heal/Shield Stacking absolutely needs some hard limits. Keep some rewards churning to make it fun, keep throwing us new sets periodically (that AREN'T Oped scumbag sets that ruin the playground), and let us do our thing slaughtering each other like the Divines intended, please.

kiwi_tea · November 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Kiwi seems to check out. I played with alot of people from Aus and they always complained about the rubber banding due to the desync. Generally for US players as the server loads up the first thing to go is the input buffering. Meaning if you are just button mashing, you will lose inputs. When this happens you need to slow down your inputs and trigger them in the correct order.

I PVE primarily, and have been working hard on my weave. It's not too bad (I won't claim it's great either), but we don't have the same visual cues, so it's sort of like you're weaving blind at times, and just have to check in CMX that your timing isn't off at the end. In PVP this is worse, cos of course there are extra confounders like all the enemy dodging, but I don't think I'm just button mashing. I also run GCD Metronome to help keep my PVP weave a bit more consistent.

It's more like, I hit my combo, nothing happens, or I bar swap, and nothing happens, then a few split seconds later it all happens at once. Bar swapping is the most common culprit, especially if it takes so long to swap that you press it again thinking it didn't register (cos it did, and you're about to swap your bars twice back onto the same one you just left). Also much harder to respond to stun-locking, I think, for Aus/NZ players. I think people assume we have no stam, but no, really, I've pressed break free multiple times now it just won't register until really, really, really late.

Also, getting through doors in Cyro under pressure has all those same issues. The "enter" won't register, or will register but won't *happen*, so if you've made the mistake of trying again, you can end up suddenly going in then immediately straight back out into the pressure.

That said, I primarily play in BR nowadays where these issues are much rarer only because of the smaller population. I wish I could get consistent performance in GH, but the weekends are just awful.

MincMincMinc · November 27

kiwi_tea wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Kiwi seems to check out. I played with alot of people from Aus and they always complained about the rubber banding due to the desync. Generally for US players as the server loads up the first thing to go is the input buffering. Meaning if you are just button mashing, you will lose inputs. When this happens you need to slow down your inputs and trigger them in the correct order.

I PVE primarily, and have been working hard on my weave. It's not too bad (I won't claim it's great either), but we don't have the same visual cues, so it's sort of like you're weaving blind at times, and just have to check in CMX that your timing isn't off at the end. In PVP this is worse, cos of course there are extra confounders like all the enemy dodging, but I don't think I'm just button mashing. I also run GCD Metronome to help keep my PVP weave a bit more consistent.

It's more like, I hit my combo, nothing happens, or I bar swap, and nothing happens, then a few split seconds later it all happens at once. Bar swapping is the most common culprit, especially if it takes so long to swap that you press it again thinking it didn't register (cos it did, and you're about to swap your bars twice back onto the same one you just left). Also much harder to respond to stun-locking, I think, for Aus/NZ players. I think people assume we have no stam, but no, really, I've pressed break free multiple times now it just won't register until really, really, really late.

Also, getting through doors in Cyro under pressure has all those same issues. The "enter" won't register, or will register but won't *happen*, so if you've made the mistake of trying again, you can end up suddenly going in then immediately straight back out into the pressure.

That said, I primarily play in BR nowadays where these issues are much rarer only because of the smaller population. I wish I could get consistent performance in GH, but the weekends are just awful.

I hear your cries, but sadly without an Oceanic server you are just screwed even if the servers were fine. What you are describing is exactly rubber banding desync issues. Some of the best players I know are oceanic or from the UK. Id lose my mind dealing with it, but somehow they do. Wouldn't be surprised if there are ISP tricks or VPNs that help.

I personally use minimal addons, but I also have a decade of playing this game under my belt. I think alot of pve players fall into the trap of trying to parse on enemy players and be consistent in a weave. You can play a build that does nothing but spams heals and then does a 3 skill combo to kill the enemy player. You are better off practicing this one single ult kill combo than weaving consistently. Especially in todays 40khp meta.

MincMincMinc · November 27

The_Meathead wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Pve releases keep players busy for a week or two, but pvp is a self creating form of content. Think of how little investment and time has gone into cyrodil vs how many players solely kept with the game just to roam around in AvA day after day. Would you rather be a game dev with a constant playerbase that is happy with a few changes every now and then, OR the playerbase that is constantly asking for major designs to be released artwork, assets, storylines, collectibles, etc just to leave after a week. Could Eso have had a healthier consistent playerbase if PvP was maintained? Idk, I just think minimal effort could have been worth the investment.

Preaching to the choir, as they say, because I've always voiced the same: PvP is always self-perpetuating because our enemies are other players. I couldn't agree more.

Give us a good playground and we're golden.

Cyrodiil should be that playground.

It's honestly not terrible as it is now, but it could use a little love and Ball Groups' Heal/Shield Stacking absolutely needs some hard limits. Keep some rewards churning to make it fun, keep throwing us new sets periodically (that AREN'T Oped scumbag sets that ruin the playground), and let us do our thing slaughtering each other like the Divines intended, please.

Yeah thats why I started the cyrodil thread LINK

All it needs is a refresh and people will be happy for another 5 years.

Problem with the ballgroup issue is that we call for cross healing and hot stacking to be limited, but then you see all of the zerglings come out of the woodwork "but how come I am not allowed to play a 60khp 50 man zerg healer and be efficient".

Hmmmmmmmm I wonder why you shouldnt be efficient.....