EULA update and losing players

pklemming

Looking over the new EULA, it looks like you 'doubled down' on the recording of private messages and included it in the EULA. Considering the number of people who hate this and the decline in population, do you think this may be a bad idea? No one appreciates being spied on. We like it less when you add it to the EULA.

[snip]
[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

Syldras

I rather think that technically nothing has changed lately, but they have included the topic in detail in the EULA now after it caused outrage a few weeks ago?

Then, I haven't seen the change yet (it shows during log-in, right?) - are the changed parts highlighted in the text or is there an easily viewable comparison between the old and new passages somewhere? Would be interesting.

ghost_bg_ESO

for me, as there were some changes on EU GDPR/Data Act and Zeni as any other company has to comply - thus the reason for "new" EULA.


* https://www.eu-data-act.com/

allochthons

Just for info purposes, it appears the new EULA screen is only popping up on EU.
I logged into my alt NA account this morning, no EULA. I switched PSN accounts, logged into EU on my main, EULA.
NA on my main, no EULA.

JaxontheUnfortunate

I did get a Eula pop up after the update when I logged into pcna this morning.

Orbital78

allochthons wrote: »

Just for info purposes, it appears the new EULA screen is only popping up on EU.
I logged into my alt NA account this morning, no EULA. I switched PSN accounts, logged into EU on my main, EULA.
NA on my main, no EULA.

You likely are accepting EULA for the account as a whole, which doesn't require accepting it for each server.

allochthons

Orbital78 wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

Just for info purposes, it appears the new EULA screen is only popping up on EU.
I logged into my alt NA account this morning, no EULA. I switched PSN accounts, logged into EU on my main, EULA.
NA on my main, no EULA.

You likely are accepting EULA for the account as a whole, which doesn't require accepting it for each server.

No. I logged into NA first, and didn't get it.
Just checked with others on the server, and see AzuraFan responded. Yeah, NA got it. I wonder why I didn't when I first logged in. It was after server roll-over. That alt account doesn't have ESO+ or West Weald, just basics. Hmmm.

AzuraFan

I got it on PC/NA.

CatoUnchained

pklemming wrote: »

Looking over the new EULA, it looks like you 'doubled down' on the recording of private messages and included it in the EULA. Considering the number of people who hate this and the decline in population, do you think this may be a bad idea? No one appreciates being spied on. We like it less when you add it to the EULA.

[snip]
[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

They did, in fact, include a mandatory acceptance of review and banning by an AI system for PRIVATE, CONSENTED TO conversations that don't include any criminal activity of any kind.

It's right there in the new EULA.

Dragonnord

pklemming wrote: »

No one appreciates being spied on.

Spied? How can we be spied? We are in THEIR house.

It's like you enter my house and you then accuse me of controlling or checking what you are doing or saying in MY house.

We own NOTHING in this game and we accepted that when we installed it and agreed to the ToS.

Game chat belongs to ZOS, not to us, so they can do whatever they want.
  

Nerouyn

The ZeniMax Terms of Service and the ZeniMax Privacy Policy include further terms and conditions applicable to the accessing, monitoring and recording of activities and communications on the Service including when ZeniMax may report incidents to law enforcement and other authorities.

You consent to ZeniMax uploading CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer and console to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to ZeniMax remotely accessing and reviewing the computer and console onto which you have loaded the Game Client for purposes of providing technical support and debugging.

Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Game Client and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant ZeniMax permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you.

You agree that any and all Game related character data is stored and is resident on ZeniMax computers and servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through ZeniMax computers and servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive.

I'm not a lawyer but have been harassed. A LOT. So I have some familiarity with that area of law.

ZO would be expected and required to retain records of potentially private communications (i.e. tells and guild chats) at least for the purpose of investigating and dealing with complaints of harassment.

As an international product, it's played all over the world.

If the OP's claim that this is new is true - I can't be bothered checking - then it's possible that somewhere in the world either a government has changed privacy legislation or there has been a court ruling related to this.

Dojohoda

Dragonnord wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

No one appreciates being spied on.

Spied? How can we be spied? We are in THEIR house.

It's like you enter my house and you then accuse me of controlling or checking what you are doing or saying in MY house.

We own NOTHING in this game and we accepted that when we installed it and agreed to the ToS.

Game chat belongs to ZOS, not to us, so they can do whatever they want.
  

Not quite. The AI is actively looking. A more accurate comparison is a guest enters your house, see video cameras everywhere, including the bathroom, and the guest uses the bathroom anyway knowing the camera is on.

Ilumia

CatoUnchained wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Looking over the new EULA, it looks like you 'doubled down' on the recording of private messages and included it in the EULA. Considering the number of people who hate this and the decline in population, do you think this may be a bad idea? No one appreciates being spied on. We like it less when you add it to the EULA.

[snip]
[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

They did, in fact, include a mandatory acceptance of review and banning by an AI system for PRIVATE, CONSENTED TO conversations that don't include any criminal activity of any kind.

It's right there in the new EULA.

Well, there goes any fair argument for that practice.
Possible criminal activity, and harassment (as in unconsented) where the two arguments used to validate AI chat monitoring in the threads discussing this topic.
Also, zosKevin said it would always be reviewed by a person, and that they'd look at context, so that private consented conversations (as in rp stuff and talks between friends), wouldn't be a problem and people shouldn't be concerned. Looks like the tos disagrees with Kevin

Nerouyn

Dojohoda wrote: »

Not quite. The AI is actively looking. A more accurate comparison is a guest enters your house, see video cameras everywhere, including the bathroom, and the guest uses the bathroom anyway knowing the camera is on.

For the purpose of being able to investigate complaints involving "tells" then ZO would always have had to at least temporarily recorded and store all private communications.

So no-one should ever have assumed they weren't.

Ilumia wrote: »

Well, there goes any fair argument for that practice.
Possible criminal activity, and harassment (as in unconsented) where the two arguments used to validate AI chat monitoring in the threads discussing this topic.

I'm very intelligent and also moderately well versed in the broad strokes of sexual harassment law. I now know my rights.

But there was a time when I didn't because I was new to the workplace and my employer benefited from illegally keeping its employees in the dark. When I was sexually harassed I didn't know it.

Most people aren't as intelligent or knowledgeable as I am. If AI monitoring has the potential to capture real harassment that is going unreported then that's a good thing.

Ilumia wrote: »

Also, zosKevin said it would always be reviewed by a person, and that they'd look at context, so that private consented conversations (as in rp stuff and talks between friends), wouldn't be a problem and people shouldn't be concerned. Looks like the tos disagrees with Kevin

Do we know that?

I'm not going to read the entire EULA but I've ctrl-f searched for "ai", "artificial", "record", "ban", "sex" and can't see anything.

Pelanora

"monitoring of communications you send and receive.

expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive."


Just consenting to monitoring. Nothing here about consenting to any action taken as a result of monitoring by automatic decision making or human.

Dunno if that's anywhere else

Tra_Lalan

Dragonnord wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

No one appreciates being spied on.

Spied? How can we be spied? We are in THEIR house.

It's like you enter my house and you then accuse me of controlling or checking what you are doing or saying in MY house.

We own NOTHING in this game and we accepted that when we installed it and agreed to the ToS.

Game chat belongs to ZOS, not to us, so they can do whatever they want.
  

The fact that you use some company's infrastructure doesn't change the fact that you are a human beeing and you have your own rights (human rights, citizen rights - guaranteed by law).

Using your logic: when you use a mobile phone you are in your mobile network provider's house, I assume you don't have your own satalites, antenas and whatever devices they use, so does it mean all your phone communication can be spied by the provider?

Same while using internet, you also use your providers cables, and all the infrastructure, does it mean you should be spied by him?

Dojohoda

Nerouyn wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

Not quite. The AI is actively looking. A more accurate comparison is a guest enters your house, see video cameras everywhere, including the bathroom, and the guest uses the bathroom anyway knowing the camera is on.

For the purpose of being able to investigate complaints involving "tells" then ZO would always have had to at least temporarily recorded and store all private communications.

So no-one should ever have assumed they weren't.

Everyone knows communications are stored to lookup reports. The difference with adding AI monitoring is that it is always looking; Hermaeus Mora should be jealous. Players who have learned about AI monitoring are justifiably concerned about the lack of transparency.

JonesFPS

Just because information is stored, does not mean it should be looked through especially by an AI that flags things taken out of context. IF investigation is needed, fine take a look at the stored data and see whats about, but only then. Since nowadays so many things are considered "offensive" the AI could just flag every other sentence because im sure it will find something, especially in private correspondence.

The whole "its their game and they can do with it what they want" argument is such a flawed statement. Sure the initial statement is not wrong but is it beneficial for the company or let alone the playerbase ? I think not.



I mean cmon guys the game is R-rated, so its technically for adults. So let us handle things like adults, no one needs to be protected. Im confident that as an adult you can defend yourself, or withdraw yourself from situations you dont like.
And the company should have the same standpoint.

Syldras

Is there an online version of the current EULA somewhere? I'd like to look at the English version of it (as I'm not playing the game in English, I got the one in my translation when logging in).

I see that there's a link just at the bottom of the forum page, but unfortunately, that seems a little outdated...

Elsonso

ZOS updated the Terms of Service. I am not aware of them updating the EULA, which is a different thing.

The ToS document updated Nov 2024 changed arbitration. They added a way for new users to opt out and changed details about how disputes and arbitration work.

The section about Content Moderation was already in there.

Syldras

So the 1st paragraph is about all the changes and there's nothing beyond what's mentioned there? This part?



This is old?

BenTSG

Well I'm glad they are being front with this change so now we KNOW it's happening, but it doesn't chanhe the fact that is is right. If I am spouting offensive things into a PUBLIC chat, such as zone or a open group from the Group Finder, then that's fair game to flag and act on. However if I am in a group with friends, guild mates, or am DM'ing someone, then action should be laid to the members of the chat to report anything they are offended or harassed by, and then a *CS EMPLOYEE* should step in to review, not an AI that has no gauge of context at all. If I am playing with MY FRIEND of which we have a banterful take with each other, and I decide to DM MY FRIEND, calling him a "Trucking Flaffhole" for running head long into a Ball Group in PvP like an idiot and our usual banterful back and forth, then it would be down to MY FRIEND to report me if they was offended at all, *not* the job of a non-human program to read a private message which hasn't been reported to act apon without any gauge of context. But hey, it's their game, and for as long as I continue to disagree with aspects of their game, I'm going to continue freeloading off of it whatever fun I still find in the game, I'm done supporting practices and directions I do not agree with.

Dragonnord

@Dojohoda and @Tra_Lalan

Clearly you guys missed this part of the ToS you both accepted:

"You agree that any and all Game related character data is stored and is resident on ZeniMax computers and servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through ZeniMax computers and servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive."
 

DigiAngel

FWIW I got it yesterday, PCNA here.

thorwyn

It's like you enter my house and you then accuse me of controlling or checking what you are doing or saying in MY house.

Very bad analogy.
If we'd talk about the forums, I would 100% agree with you. Forums are their house, we are just guests here and they can do whatever they want. Noone is required or obliged to be a member of the forums and ZOS does not gain anything from us being here.
Playing ESO is a different scenario though. This is not "their house", this is a business relationship. ZOS is offering a product and we - the players - are paying them. While changing the conditions at any point is still within their rights, it is also the right of the customer to criticize the changes if they think that said changes are not reasonable. And apparently, the line is not as obvious as you want to make it appear.

Calagari

This makes me wonder what is going on in some of the chats that are of a criminal nature to get the police involved?
I'm pretty naive about these things.

Syldras

Calagari wrote: »

This makes me wonder what is going on in some of the chats that are of a criminal nature to get the police involved?
I'm pretty naive about these things.

I don't know if something like that actually already happened somewhere, but one thing that certain people have made quite a fuss about in my country - usually to justify surveillance - is that terrorists could potentially use game chats to discuss some evil plans and then nuke (insert name of random famous politician here) to the moon or something.

It is doubtful of course that people discussing criminal plans would do that in normal language and without encryption of any kind. Also, I'm not sure how a filter against swear words could be related to this topic.

Amottica

Orbital78 wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

Just for info purposes, it appears the new EULA screen is only popping up on EU.
I logged into my alt NA account this morning, no EULA. I switched PSN accounts, logged into EU on my main, EULA.
NA on my main, no EULA.

You likely are accepting EULA for the account as a whole, which doesn't require accepting it for each server.

This as I did have to accept it on PC/NA.

Also, I doubt many have left the game due to chat monitoring for offensive chatter. Most of us do not say stuff that would be an issue, so we do not care. The chatter in forums does not reflect the player base. Most of the player base hardly visits the forums to start with.

Dragonnord

thorwyn wrote: »

While changing the conditions at any point is still within their rights, it is also the right of the customer to criticize the changes if they think that said changes are not reasonable.

Yet, you agreed to the ToS.
 

tsaescishoeshiner

I don't think anyone's upset about the "privacy" part, just the AI actions. For example, people know that staff or an automated system might view their chats, but that's completely different from being temporarily banned for content in your chats without any player reporting the behavior.

This isn't a roleplayer issue--any player can be erronneously banned/suspended by an AI-flagged message, including people who were joking around or teasing their friends in dungeons.

Hasn't happened to anyone I know yet.

LPapirius

Dragonnord wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

No one appreciates being spied on.

Spied? How can we be spied? We are in THEIR house.

It's like you enter my house and you then accuse me of controlling or checking what you are doing or saying in MY house.

We own NOTHING in this game and we accepted that when we installed it and agreed to the ToS.

Game chat belongs to ZOS, not to us, so they can do whatever they want.
  

ZOS is in our house just as much as we are in theirs, to use your analogy.

Respect and consideration is, ideally, a two way street. If a person doesn't give respect or consideration are they deserving of it themselves?