(Poll + Discussion) Is Battlegrounds 8v8 fun?

Aggrovious

You can list your reasons as to why you picked your answer. I am using the poll to gather attention as to what the problems are in 8v8 BG's. I had fun, but why there are alot of problems that limited that fun...

Pros:

• 35 transmute rewards are awesome. I never have to play Cyrodiil again
• Chaos Ball with the Vampire vs Werewolf is alot of fun.
• The matches are action packed. Even if your team loses, everyone sticks together.
• IMO, 8v8 is better than the old BGs. That's right, it does feel more balanced. Its not always one sided unlike 4v4s.

Cons:

• 8V8 BGs ends the match due to not having enough players. This happens alot and needs to be fixed ASAP.
• 8v8s can have a team spawn kill the other. Most maps actually can counter this if players are smart enough (using bridges and attacking by flanks), but you have to survive 8 players or be a nightblade (I dont mind)
• 8v8s queues are TERRIBLE. You can not queue with a friend in a group queue, but if you both queue in solo you usually are in the same match and team. FIX THIS.
• 8v8s should consider dropping deathmatch and just making it capture the flag or chaos ball. A unpopular take not doubt, but lets be real here. Alot of players in BGs just attack eachother and when your whole team is fighting a couple of guys, you lose alot because they're dumb. If we change the game mode to capture the flag and chaos ball only for 8v8s, we can lower those queue times and fix them, right?

Jak3Bartez

Yes

It's fun when the teams are fairly balanced, the team that has a healer or three usually wins since its very easy to play defence and not die if they don't want to.
They need to stop anyone dealing/taking damage from spawn and adding a comeback mechanic in deathmatch would be good, like if theirs a 100 point difference the losing team gets a defensive and offensive power up in spawn they're only 30 seconds so not huge game changers. Much better than old BGs for me.

xylena_lazarow

Yes

I love the new 8v8 solo queue, it's not perfect but here's hoping they improve on it. I hadn't cared about BGs in years and was losing interest in ESO in general, but the 8v8 solo has me playing regularly again. The big things I'd like to see are some sort of mercy rule or forfeit option for lopsided matches, buffs for the monster mode in Chaosball, and making the spawn area a proper uninteractable safe zone like you see in Cyro towns or IC doors.

DeadlySerious

No

The new BG is just a distraction from working on what ZOS should be focusing on when it comes to PvP, and that's Cyrodiil.

Aldoss

Other

I assume this poll is asking about the solo queue, in which I'd say, yes, it's fun.

However, that's neglecting a entire queuing population that also deserve to have a functioning and enriching playing experience.

The group queue is 99% composed of casual duo queuers. Games are really fun when the lobby is a mixture of casual and more advanced skilled duos.

This experience is demolished the second a 4-stack joins the 8v8. The power limit of a coordinated 4-stack vs a casual duo is exponentially higher and it makes the game completely unplayable for everyone but the 4-stack (and their other teammates, but even then, most are not securing any kills because the 4-stack is literally deleting the entire lobby left and right instantly).

4-stacks need to be pushed into the "competitive" 4v4 queue and the mode needs to be adjusted to be arena style, best of 3 rounds, 1 life per round. Duo BGers are essentially gambling their queue time and play time on the notion that there won't be a 4-stack in the queue, because when there is, that time is essentially wasted.

Aggrovious

Yes

Aldoss wrote: »

I assume this poll is asking about the solo queue, in which I'd say, yes, it's fun.

However, that's neglecting a entire queuing population that also deserve to have a functioning and enriching playing experience.

The group queue is 99% composed of casual duo queuers. Games are really fun when the lobby is a mixture of casual and more advanced skilled duos.

No, the purpose of the poll is for discussion and to see if players find 8v8 BGs fun. Queues are quicker if you solo queue and that is dumb because I am put into the same team as my friend I wanted to queue with.

moosegod

Other

yes and no...

8v8 is sometimes a lot of fun as a casual experience but I often find myself in lopsided matches. If one team doesn't have a healer then the game is usually decided before it starts, especially in deathmatch but also in the objective modes. I don't even bother with 4v4 on anything other than a healer because of this issue as it is even more prevalent there.

I've experienced plenty of spawn camping when one team has a better composition than the other. I was in a chaosball match this weekend where a warden on the enemy team went 44-0 running around with the winter storm ult. They were virtually unkillable under all the heals and shields provided by their team. In the end, the warden was near the bottom of their team's scoreboard cause he never picked up the chaosball, actively ignoring the objective just to wipe my squishy team of what I assume were new players. They couldn't get out of spawn with their 20k health pools.

IMO, the game has too many defensive options. A healer should not be able to keep their whole team alive while themselves being a tank, that just doesn't make sense. Sure if I was in a coordinated team we could all focus the healer but that doesn't happen in solo queue. As it is, healers can play a pivotal role in solo queue which is great for those players to feel useful but they create either two outcomes: a stalemate or a lopsided victory.

Part of this problem is some of the small map sizes for 8v8. I keep getting the same couple maps: the town with the funneling streets that brings everyone to the center, the dungeon map (so many games on the dungeon map), and the two tiny arenas where you can almost shoot each other from spawn. I haven't played on the map with the big tree and the boat since the update launched. With only two teams now, spawn camping is practically encouraged as their is no 3rd team to keep the spawn campers in check.

I would say I'm 50/50 on this new update. I like the refreshing change, it shakes things up. But their are plenty of kinks to work out in this new system and I feel it was implemented too quickly without proper foresight. I don't know how they didn't foresee spawn camping being an issue and put something in place to remedy it from the start.

Aggrovious

Yes

moosegod wrote: »

yes and no...

8v8 is sometimes a lot of fun as a casual experience but I often find myself in lopsided matches. If one team doesn't have a healer then the game is usually decided before it starts, especially in deathmatch but also in the objective modes. I don't even bother with 4v4 on anything other than a healer because of this issue as it is even more prevalent there.

I've experienced plenty of spawn camping when one team has a better composition than the other. I was in a chaosball match this weekend where a warden on the enemy team went 44-0 running around with the winter storm ult. They were virtually unkillable under all the heals and shields provided by their team. In the end, the warden was near the bottom of their team's scoreboard cause he never picked up the chaosball, actively ignoring the objective just to wipe my squishy team of what I assume were new players. They couldn't get out of spawn with their 20k health pools.

IMO, the game has too many defensive options. A healer should not be able to keep their whole team alive while themselves being a tank, that just doesn't make sense. Sure if I was in a coordinated team we could all focus the healer but that doesn't happen in solo queue. As it is, healers can play a pivotal role in solo queue which is great for those players to feel useful but they create either two outcomes: a stalemate or a lopsided victory.

Part of this problem is some of the small map sizes for 8v8. I keep getting the same couple maps: the town with the funneling streets that brings everyone to the center, the dungeon map (so many games on the dungeon map), and the two tiny arenas where you can almost shoot each other from spawn. I haven't played on the map with the big tree and the boat since the update launched. With only two teams now, spawn camping is practically encouraged as their is no 3rd team to keep the spawn campers in check.

I would say I'm 50/50 on this new update. I like the refreshing change, it shakes things up. But their are plenty of kinks to work out in this new system and I feel it was implemented too quickly without proper foresight. I don't know how they didn't foresee spawn camping being an issue and put something in place to remedy it from the start.

You're complaining about MMO pvp problems and not really BG. Healers feel tanky because they block and have a build. They should heal their whole team because its an MMO. They are tanky because its ESO PVP, not just BG. I only see one issue about BG that you mentioned and that is spawn killing. But if its one guy, players need to play smarter... You can escape it and force players to retreat from your base. Players wont though because a lot of these guys are PVEers.

Sure we can add a protective zone, but players will still camp it if they are allowed to by your team. This happens in MOBAs often.

bkzland

Yes

I answered yes, but I had to think about it or a while. There are many issues that need solutions, my personaly top 3 are these:

1. Pre-match experience and matchmaking needs to be way more aggressive to prioritize facilicating the start of a match over finding "perfect" matches. The waiting experience is just horrible, especially when queueing as groups of 3 into 8v8 the wait time generally exceed 15minutes per match, _before_ the invite prompt happens, which is usually still followed by the extra 5 minutes wait and match cancellation. I feel the match just starting rather than the match being put together perfectly is of such high importance to me, that I would even much prefer random people to get pulled from their group and assigned to the enemy team if the lobby finds it can fill and start the game that way, rather than waiting longer or matches cancelling.

2. Strength of pre made groups is very high in 8v8, and ball group strategies are very effective. I specifically am referring to groups of 4 bringing an organized ball of themselves, that is easily able to dominate any match through outhealing all the incoming damage, until they can perform coordinated ulti dump to wipe out any other team. I think there are some valid suggestions how to address this, like only groups 2 are allowed to queue in, or healing needs to be debuffed/damage needs to be buffed over time of the match, so things don't stay the same stable way until the end, but I don't have a clear vision of how to solve this. The idea that MMR is able to just filter out players in a way that unorganized collections of players do not run into organized groups just doesn't seem to work as effectively as it probably was envisioned, and 2 sided means there is no regulation third team, that is able to play objectives, which semi effectively countered the 4 man ball group strategy in the past for not being able to fully control all objectives as a cohesive ball.

3. Spawn location immunity is desperately needed, and 4v4 deathmatch rounds should not be a combination of respawns and rounds. I read lots of suggestions in other threads for the spawn situation and the problems with it, I like the idea of the IC style protection the most. Players in spawn are immune for maximum time, but lose the immunity if they attack or use certain offensives skills themselves, or if they move away from the spawn too far immediately.
The main problem in many steam rolled matches is that players just are unable to get back into the game after respawning, since they immediately get CCd and killed individually when jumping down. They may not be able to turn the tide of the match, but being spawn killed like this is an utterly miserable experience, that just needs to be prevented for people not to fully abandon queueing into the game mode.

I said 3, but I want to at least mention the terrible reward structure, especially for the battlemaster token item. Firstly it just seems to be completely random, which daily quests my characters seem to receive, and only To The Victor has the token as a reward, but secondly since that can only be fulfilled by a win, the motivation for weaker players is just very low to really play for this. In my mind, the To The Victor quest should always be the first quest you receive on any given day, the other 2? of earn 1000 medals, and play 5 matches, should only be given as stretch goals after To The Victor was already performed, or completely removed from the battlemater quest rotation. Secondly, in order to keep players engegaged better even after losses, To The Victor should have a third optional condition that is satisfied by just playing 3-5 matches, as an alternative condition to receive the token item even when losing, so it would either reward token after 1 win, plus increasing secondary rewards up to three wins as designed, _or_ reward the same reward as the first victory stage of the quest, including the battlemaster token, after playing but not winning a minimum amount of e.g. 3-5 matches.

darvaria

Yes

Yes they are fun. But I wish ZOS would get maps that are not on 2 and 3 different levels. Why do you create so many hiding spaces? This serves nothing. I like to be able to see where the enemy team is ... like "how many are at the blacksmith sort of thing". Plus the flag games need to be a little longer.

fizzylu

No

No, not for me.... just seems mindless and not at all challenging. It's at least not as bad as 4v4 though where the match is decided in the first 2 minutes.

ValarMorghulis1896

Yes

Yes, but i liked the old 4:4:4 matches more!

Soarora

Other

It's fine, I guess. The more I play 8v8 the more I miss 4v4v4 though. 8v8 makes me feel I should just make a bomb build on every character I have.

the1andonlyskwex

As a console player, I haven't had enough time with the new 8v8s to have a fully formed opinion. I like the 8v8 domination mode a lot (and have played it a lot because of the domination weekend), but felt like I didn't have any real impact in the 1-2 8v8 deathmatches I've played (too many players, all cross-healing like crazy), and I haven't played any of the other 8v8 modes yet.

Qagh

Yes

Fun? Yes

Balance: Terrible

Thumbless_Bot

No

Fun is relative.

Kickimanjaro

No

If we could queue with a full group of 8 to properly build a good group comp, then I'd enjoy it a whole lot more.

Cooperharley

Yes

8v8 is great. 4v4 with the spawn situation is just ridiculous especially for their “ranked” playlist or “competitive” playlist

Stafford197

Other

It has the potential to be fun, and I had some fun matches for about 2 days after patch launch since it was packed with easy kill players.

The reason it is not fun anymore is due to poor balance and medal scoring. Naturally the easy kills would leave, and we would then be surrounded with the reality of the situation. A tank/healer meta.

My willingness to try out the new BGs was there but it honestly turned out exactly like I thought it would. This is nothing more than a reformatted version of the same bad PvP. If it was fun I’d stick around, but unfortunately, I’m already going back to other games for PvP.

Chilly-McFreeze

Other

Aggrovious wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

yes and no...

8v8 is sometimes a lot of fun as a casual experience but I often find myself in lopsided matches. If one team doesn't have a healer then the game is usually decided before it starts, especially in deathmatch but also in the objective modes. I don't even bother with 4v4 on anything other than a healer because of this issue as it is even more prevalent there.

I've experienced plenty of spawn camping when one team has a better composition than the other. I was in a chaosball match this weekend where a warden on the enemy team went 44-0 running around with the winter storm ult. They were virtually unkillable under all the heals and shields provided by their team. In the end, the warden was near the bottom of their team's scoreboard cause he never picked up the chaosball, actively ignoring the objective just to wipe my squishy team of what I assume were new players. They couldn't get out of spawn with their 20k health pools.

IMO, the game has too many defensive options. A healer should not be able to keep their whole team alive while themselves being a tank, that just doesn't make sense. Sure if I was in a coordinated team we could all focus the healer but that doesn't happen in solo queue. As it is, healers can play a pivotal role in solo queue which is great for those players to feel useful but they create either two outcomes: a stalemate or a lopsided victory.

Part of this problem is some of the small map sizes for 8v8. I keep getting the same couple maps: the town with the funneling streets that brings everyone to the center, the dungeon map (so many games on the dungeon map), and the two tiny arenas where you can almost shoot each other from spawn. I haven't played on the map with the big tree and the boat since the update launched. With only two teams now, spawn camping is practically encouraged as their is no 3rd team to keep the spawn campers in check.

I would say I'm 50/50 on this new update. I like the refreshing change, it shakes things up. But their are plenty of kinks to work out in this new system and I feel it was implemented too quickly without proper foresight. I don't know how they didn't foresee spawn camping being an issue and put something in place to remedy it from the start.

You're complaining about MMO pvp problems and not really BG. Healers feel tanky because they block and have a build. They should heal their whole team because its an MMO. They are tanky because its ESO PVP, not just BG. I only see one issue about BG that you mentioned and that is spawn killing. But if its one guy, players need to play smarter... You can escape it and force players to retreat from your base. Players wont though because a lot of these guys are PVEers.

Sure we can add a protective zone, but players will still camp it if they are allowed to by your team. This happens in MOBAs often.

If ESO‘s pvp issues and imbalances are far more apparent in the new 8v8 Mode than in the old BGs, the new mode is likely part of the problem. Or at least potentiates them more.

fizzylu

No

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If ESO‘s pvp issues and imbalances are far more apparent in the new 8v8 Mode than in the old BGs, the new mode is likely part of the problem.

That's the elephant in the room that all the people claiming 2 teams and 4v4 are better than the 4v4v4 setup don't seem to want to acknowledge. Yes, ESO combat has it's problems.... and whether or not people want to admit it, some of those problems are just fundamental issues that cannot be fixed this far into the games existence (ie spammy combat with no cooldowns).... but it's funny how suddenly a whole new level of complaints about healing, overall sustain, tank metas, and etc flooded the forums following the removal of 4v4v4.
8v8 isn't always bad because of the bigger team sizes, but I still see way more one-sided fights in this mode where teams just get stuck in spawn/give up compared to 4v4v4. The last 8v8 match I did my whole team basically ended up leaving because there was just no fighting back, it got so bad that there was a point where only 3 players were on our side and we were all just sitting in spawn. And it was crazy king, a mode where an underdog team could still strategize to try to win objectives or simply feel like their time in the match still mattered.... but with 2 teams? Nope, impossible. Then the 8v8 before that my team was just dominating over the other. And 4v4 entirely just super highlights everything wrong with ESO PvP.

I'd say no matter how you look at it, 4v4v4 complemented ESO combat far better. I can see why some enjoy 8v8 since the bigger team sizes can take some of the stress off of a single player and doesn't require the strategizing playing against two enemy teams did. And I can even understand how some people who do play mostly grouped and/or enjoy the mini ballgroup style fighting like 4v4.... but what I can't understand is how they claim it's a better alternative to the 4v4v4 BGs and shouldn't have just been it's own PvP feature (deathmatch arenas being the obvious choice).

mmtaniac

Yes

It's acceptable.

Jierdanit

Yes

fizzylu wrote: »

That's the elephant in the room that all the people claiming 2 teams and 4v4 are better than the 4v4v4 setup don't seem to want to acknowledge. Yes, ESO combat has it's problems.... and whether or not people want to admit it, some of those problems are just fundamental issues that cannot be fixed this far into the games existence (ie spammy combat with no cooldowns).... but it's funny how suddenly a whole new level of complaints about healing, overall sustain, tank metas, and etc flooded the forums following the removal of 4v4v4.

The problems with healing and tanks were just as big in the 4v4v4. The new complaints are most likely simply due to more players trying the new Battlegrounds because they were updated and seeing those problems too.

But overall people have been complaining about healers in BGs for a long time, its nothing new.

fizzylu wrote: »

8v8 isn't always bad because of the bigger team sizes, but I still see way more one-sided fights in this mode where teams just get stuck in spawn/give up compared to 4v4v4. The last 8v8 match I did my whole team basically ended up leaving because there was just no fighting back, it got so bad that there was a point where only 3 players were on our side and we were all just sitting in spawn. And it was crazy king, a mode where an underdog team could still strategize to try to win objectives or simply feel like their time in the match still mattered.... but with 2 teams? Nope, impossible. Then the 8v8 before that my team was just dominating over the other. And 4v4 entirely just super highlights everything wrong with ESO PvP.

I'd say no matter how you look at it, 4v4v4 complemented ESO combat far better. I can see why some enjoy 8v8 since the bigger team sizes can take some of the stress off of a single player and doesn't require the strategizing playing against two enemy teams did. And I can even understand how some people who do play mostly grouped and/or enjoy the mini ballgroup style fighting like 4v4.... but what I can't understand is how they claim it's a better alternative to the 4v4v4 BGs and shouldn't have just been it's own PvP feature (deathmatch arenas being the obvious choice).

The main issue with the new BGs is that the matchmaking is still super unbalanced. If you actually get a decently balanced BG they are a lot better than the 4v4v4s in my opinion.

I would say that 4v4 and 8v8 are both considerably better than 4v4v4, so it definitely matters how you look at it. IMO it is definitely the better alternative to the 4v4v4 and I would much rather only have the new BGs than only have the 4v4v4s.

Both would be possible too, but ZOS most likely didnt want to do that because they didnt want to split up the PvP population too much.

Elrond87

Other

Who knows, anytime I join it times out and removes me.

fizzylu

No

@Jierdanit
Actually a lot of the people complaining about that stuff were players saying they've participated in BGs/PvP a lot. And yes, sustain has always been an issue.... my point is that somehow it's even more of an issue despite there being little to no changes to actual healing or combat this update.... and yes, not just from new BG players and PvPers.

And obviously it being better is your opinion. I still prefer 4v4v4 even in a balanced match, was simply pointing out that the balance between teams is far worse on top of my irrelevant lack of enjoyment of the 2 team setup period. I also find all the "better matchmaking will make everything better" claims to be quite hollow and kind of bs.

But yes, for some reason I guess they just assumed everyone would conform to the new system.... sadly for them, I don't think that's going to work out in their favor.

To also make it as clear as possible despite feeling like it already was, I have never said or implied things like healing and sustain were never an issue. What I have said and implied is simply that the 2 team BGs make the issues more apparent, impactful, and overall result in worse gameplay.

Aggrovious

Yes

Elrond87 wrote: »

Who knows, anytime I join it times out and removes me.

This does need to be fixed ASAP @ZOS_Kevin

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing some comments, we would like to remind everyone that all posts are to be kept within the guidelines of the Community Rules.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

StarOfElyon

Other

Aggrovious wrote: »

You can list your reasons as to why you picked your answer. I am using the poll to gather attention as to what the problems are in 8v8 BG's. I had fun, but why there are alot of problems that limited that fun...

Pros:

• 35 transmute rewards are awesome. I never have to play Cyrodiil again
• Chaos Ball with the Vampire vs Werewolf is alot of fun.
• The matches are action packed. Even if your team loses, everyone sticks together.
• IMO, 8v8 is better than the old BGs. That's right, it does feel more balanced. Its not always one sided unlike 4v4s.

Cons:

• 8V8 BGs ends the match due to not having enough players. This happens alot and needs to be fixed ASAP.
• 8v8s can have a team spawn kill the other. Most maps actually can counter this if players are smart enough (using bridges and attacking by flanks), but you have to survive 8 players or be a nightblade (I dont mind)
• 8v8s queues are TERRIBLE. You can not queue with a friend in a group queue, but if you both queue in solo you usually are in the same match and team. FIX THIS.
• 8v8s should consider dropping deathmatch and just making it capture the flag or chaos ball. A unpopular take not doubt, but lets be real here. Alot of players in BGs just attack eachother and when your whole team is fighting a couple of guys, you lose alot because they're dumb. If we change the game mode to capture the flag and chaos ball only for 8v8s, we can lower those queue times and fix them, right?

I play solo. Sometimes it is fun but there are a lot of times when it feels like the other team is coordinated and it's a wipe. It also feels like the team that has the most wardens (spamming heals) and sorcs will win. And giving nightblades a Magicka burst heal stronger than Templar's was a terrible idea that makes them even harder to kill with wardens around. It can bring out everything that's wrong with the game. There's really a disconnect with the devs and the game as it is.

StarOfElyon

Other

Aldoss wrote: »

I assume this poll is asking about the solo queue, in which I'd say, yes, it's fun.

However, that's neglecting a entire queuing population that also deserve to have a functioning and enriching playing experience.

The group queue is 99% composed of casual duo queuers. Games are really fun when the lobby is a mixture of casual and more advanced skilled duos.

This experience is demolished the second a 4-stack joins the 8v8. The power limit of a coordinated 4-stack vs a casual duo is exponentially higher and it makes the game completely unplayable for everyone but the 4-stack (and their other teammates, but even then, most are not securing any kills because the 4-stack is literally deleting the entire lobby left and right instantly).

4-stacks need to be pushed into the "competitive" 4v4 queue and the mode needs to be adjusted to be arena style, best of 3 rounds, 1 life per round. Duo BGers are essentially gambling their queue time and play time on the notion that there won't be a 4-stack in the queue, because when there is, that time is essentially wasted.

I hate lives and rounds. This isn't street fighter.

huskandhunger

Yes

I enjoy the 8v8 solo mode the most, however, the existing issues with PVP combat itself can rankle the fun.

Current PVP issues that can make battlegrounds modes unfun include:

• Overtuned Healing/Cross-healing

• Some Maps feel too small to support 8v8 - huntsman's fortress in particular is like a tiny playground, it's too compressed

• Some Modes do not cause enough player engagement or split up the 8 person teams resulting in ball-group style tactics/combat with a giant mosh-pit in the middle --Capture the relic and Domination can sometimes cause due to again some of the above intertwined issues with healing and map size

huskandhunger

Yes

I would also like to state: the old 4v4v4s were functional, fun, and worked for the unbalanced combat ESO currently has, so those would be best to re-implement to have a functional product, and then simply work out the kinks in 4v4/8v8s and re-release them at a later time or year when ESO feels ready to do so.

It's totally okay to admit this product missed the mark, and would go a long way toward establishing inroads to building a better product with the community's feedback in mind so that people will feel excited to play the game once more.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin