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RIP Permablock Tank 2024
SkaraMinoc
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I've been using the new Bulwark Ruination set in Cyrodiil.
It works like this.
(Starting Block Mitigation) * 0.92^(Stacks) = Final Block Mitigation
90 * 0.92^5 = 59.3173
You can also calculate it manually. Just keep multiplying the result by 0.92.
1 stack: 90 * 0.92 = 82.8
2 stacks: 82.8 * 0.92 = 76.176
etc
Reducing block mitigation from 90% -> 82% is the same as increasing damage by 80%.
For example,
1000 damage hit @ 90% blocked = 100 damage taken
1000 damage hit @ 82% blocked = 180 damage taken (+80%)
In most cases, 5 stacks will increase damage with blocked attacks by 200-300%.
90% block mitigation reduced to 59.3% = 307% increased damage
85% block mitigation reduced to 56.0% = 290% increased damage
80% block mitigation reduced to 52.7% = 273% increased damage
75% block mitigation reduced to 49.4% = 256% increased damage
70% block mitigation reduced to 46.1% = 239% increased damage
65% block mitigation reduced to 42.8% = 222% increased damage
60% block mitigation reduced to 39.5% = 205% increased damage
Here's a combat log showing the damage increase with 4 stacks.
126 -> 336 is a 267% damage increase with blocked attacks.
The soft cap is 90% block mitigation but there is no hard cap.
130% block mitigation reduced to 85.7% = 43% increased damage
125% block mitigation reduced to 82.4% = 76% increased damage
120% block mitigation reduced to 79.1% = 109% increased damage
115% block mitigation reduced to 75.8% = 142% increased damage
110% block mitigation reduced to 72.5% = 175% increased damage
105% block mitigation reduced to 69.2% = 208% increased damage
100% block mitigation reduced to 65.9% = 241% increased damage
95% block mitigation reduced to 62.6% = 274% increased damage
The only way for a permablock tank to minimize the impact of Bulwark Ruination is to build for 125%+ block mitigation and this is not possible. Not even on a Sorcerer with Bound Aegis, Immovable, and Bracing Anchor. A permablock tank cannot have < 80% effective block mitigation. It's not enough.
In conclusion, the Bulwark Ruination set is a counter to permablock tanks that try to tank 10, 15, or 20+ players at a time.
Edited by SkaraMinoc on 4 November 2024 07:10 It works like this.
(Starting Block Mitigation) * 0.92^(Stacks) = Final Block Mitigation
90 * 0.92^5 = 59.3173
You can also calculate it manually. Just keep multiplying the result by 0.92.
1 stack: 90 * 0.92 = 82.8
2 stacks: 82.8 * 0.92 = 76.176
etc
Reducing block mitigation from 90% -> 82% is the same as increasing damage by 80%.
For example,
1000 damage hit @ 90% blocked = 100 damage taken
1000 damage hit @ 82% blocked = 180 damage taken (+80%)
In most cases, 5 stacks will increase damage with blocked attacks by 200-300%.
90% block mitigation reduced to 59.3% = 307% increased damage
85% block mitigation reduced to 56.0% = 290% increased damage
80% block mitigation reduced to 52.7% = 273% increased damage
75% block mitigation reduced to 49.4% = 256% increased damage
70% block mitigation reduced to 46.1% = 239% increased damage
65% block mitigation reduced to 42.8% = 222% increased damage
60% block mitigation reduced to 39.5% = 205% increased damage
Here's a combat log showing the damage increase with 4 stacks.
126 -> 336 is a 267% damage increase with blocked attacks.
The soft cap is 90% block mitigation but there is no hard cap.
130% block mitigation reduced to 85.7% = 43% increased damage
125% block mitigation reduced to 82.4% = 76% increased damage
120% block mitigation reduced to 79.1% = 109% increased damage
115% block mitigation reduced to 75.8% = 142% increased damage
110% block mitigation reduced to 72.5% = 175% increased damage
105% block mitigation reduced to 69.2% = 208% increased damage
100% block mitigation reduced to 65.9% = 241% increased damage
95% block mitigation reduced to 62.6% = 274% increased damage
The only way for a permablock tank to minimize the impact of Bulwark Ruination is to build for 125%+ block mitigation and this is not possible. Not even on a Sorcerer with Bound Aegis, Immovable, and Bracing Anchor. A permablock tank cannot have < 80% effective block mitigation. It's not enough.
In conclusion, the Bulwark Ruination set is a counter to permablock tanks that try to tank 10, 15, or 20+ players at a time.
PC NA
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Good. They added this set so casual zergers can deal with troll tanks. Working as intended. I seriously doubt the set will have any impact on the game's more competitive side.SkaraMinoc wrote: »In conclusion, the Bulwark Ruination set is a counter to permablock tanks that try to tank 10, 15, or 20+ players at a time.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps20 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭This is actually the kind of awesome set design I like to see. It helps to combat a specific problem without in turn creating a problem and has decent stats for when you're just having regular fights.
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The_Meathead✭✭✭✭Good addition!
I actually feel like Tanks should have a place in Cyrodiil doing Tank-y things, but they also should have a counter other than 20 people concentrating on them. This is a more than fair way to do it, kudos to ZOS on this one.0 -
H_E✭✭✭thats why the bomber build is paired with the troll tank, cuz they eventually get bored of keeping buffs up and become prime targets to go kaboom
worry not for not even this set will stop me from troll tanking1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭thats why the bomber build is paired with the troll tank, cuz they eventually get bored of keeping buffs up and become prime targets to go kaboom
worry not for not even this set will stop me from troll tanking
I've had some interesting fun messing with war chief, stam poisons and the cyrodiil set for defile. This set might kind of seal the deal but good thing and fair thing about tanking is that a low of times you run into groups that aren't built to easily take down tanks1 -
Thumbless_Bot✭✭✭✭The best part is that this set works against anyone who blocks. Not just permablock tanks. Great idea. I hope it isn't too op1
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Thumbless_Bot wrote: »The best part is that this set works against anyone who blocks. Not just permablock tanks. Great idea. I hope it isn't too op
Not op at all because if you're just blocking attacks and letting stacks build then you're either a block tank, trolling, or subject to die anyway. If you just block here and there but also keep up offensive windows you shouldn't take much if any more damage than you would if the player was wearing a damage set1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭do the stacks from this set "stack" from multiple users? or does it just reach its stack cap faster?
im assuming its the latter and it just reaches its cap fasterplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
Stafford197✭✭✭✭✭But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.5 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
There is no "actual issue". There are playstyles and there are counters to those playstyles. Just like everything else in the game.
Only one person equipping this set in a group setting counters a tank's ability to effectively block against everything.
This is basically Jeralls for block. A straight counter.
You should need to adapt your playstyle to counter another. That is the point of the game.
It's not a waste of a piece slot but an investment into countering another playstyle.4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
Unlike shield breaker this set actually looks like it will work for the designed purpose. Shield breaker actually working to do what it was designed to do would be a great thing right now but instead it's really not worth the slot over other damage sets.
Having counterplay that works well in specific scenarios is actually a great thing because it gives players choices to handle different given situations.
The set is a battleground set and that's actually a place where it could see use as well as Cyro. one actually run into block tanks in every format so I'm just happy that this set gives actual use vs so many other dead sets or sets that have a use but that just get picked up by those they are intended to use against.
And block tanks aren't a problem to be solved because they are one of the few setups that actually make sense in this game. A player gives up all offensive capability to be become purely defensive. They can be annoying or avoided so it's a fair trade all around.
Much better than a player that goes nearly full damage and is then rewarded with defensive capability.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
There is no "actual issue". There are playstyles and there are counters to those playstyles. Just like everything else in the game.
Only one person equipping this set in a group setting counters a tank's ability to effectively block against everything.
This is basically Jeralls for block. A straight counter.
You should need to adapt your playstyle to counter another. That is the point of the game.
It's not a waste of a piece slot but an investment into countering another playstyle.
Raid boss isn't a playstyle. Even then, raid bosses can't "effectively block everything." It is ridiculous in a PvP game that one person can walk around with impunity shrugging off the attacks of 20 opponents. Indicative of a company who has pandered to every complaint by a playerbase about dying.Edited by Joy_Division on 6 November 2024 15:443 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
There is no "actual issue". There are playstyles and there are counters to those playstyles. Just like everything else in the game.
Only one person equipping this set in a group setting counters a tank's ability to effectively block against everything.
This is basically Jeralls for block. A straight counter.
You should need to adapt your playstyle to counter another. That is the point of the game.
It's not a waste of a piece slot but an investment into countering another playstyle.
Raid boss isn't a playstyle. Even then, raid bosses can't "effectively block everything." It is ridiculous in a PvP game that one person can walk around with impunity shrugging off the attacks of 20 opponents. Indicative of a company who has pandered to every complaint by a playerbase about dying.
20 opponents that are disorganized and of varying skill levels. It's the same reason we have 1vx.
It actually takes about 2 to 3 skilled players with damage to kill a tank these days. So no when you see someone tanking a lot of people it's the same as 1vx, in the they found very favorable conditions.
Tanking is absolutely a playstyle that can be anywhere from self entertaining to useful on the battlefield.
Also taking is not just holding block or strapping on any old build and cp. There's work that goes into designing the build and maintaining a rotation as well as dealing with various damage scenarios.
Tanks can also be useful in battle if they choose to be. They can act as bullet sponges, throw off heals or buffs, distract enemy groups , burn siege, act as bomb bait, etc. And again it has scaling of difficulty depending on how far you want to push it.
It's also easier to observe and understand some aspects of combat when you get in situations where you can keep from dying but also look at what enemies are doing.
I don't have any interest in tanking anymore these days but I definitely think it's a playstyle and can understand why some enjoy it.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭albertberku wrote: »This set looks like made for 5 player ball groups made of 50k hp wardens that run in keeps and spam AoEs randomly and pull everyone and cast ultimate to kill 20 players at once. This is exactly where it is going to be used, not against 20v1 permablock tanks, which do not exist anyway. Reminds me Tarnished, a set introduced to make cheese playstyles even more cheese. Lets give it one or two patch cycles and after enough money is paid for the new content it will be nerfed, as how it with Tarnished or any other previous curiously unnecessary new sets happened.
what money was paid out for this content? U44 was a free base game update lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
There is no "actual issue". There are playstyles and there are counters to those playstyles. Just like everything else in the game.
Only one person equipping this set in a group setting counters a tank's ability to effectively block against everything.
This is basically Jeralls for block. A straight counter.
You should need to adapt your playstyle to counter another. That is the point of the game.
It's not a waste of a piece slot but an investment into countering another playstyle.
It is ridiculous in a PvP game that one person can walk around with impunity shrugging off the attacks of 20 opponents.
This is entirely inaccurate.
There is no build in the game that allows you to shrug off the attacks from 20 players indefinitely.
Block doesn't work that way. Nothing does infact.
Edited by edward_frigidhands on 6 November 2024 17:380 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Quoted post has been removed.
All new sets seem useful and powerful right now.
Whether we will see nerfs over the next 2 patches remains to be seen.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on 6 November 2024 21:360 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And block tanks aren't a problem to be solved because they are one of the few setups that actually make sense in this game. A player gives up all offensive capability to be become purely defensive.
Who says you have to give up all offense or become purely defensive? This set looks like a direct counter to the none-sense I was playing last month
Overall this game has a severe problem in 1v1 where basically if you don't want to die you don't have to. But that doesn't mean you give up offense. It just means that you can't kill the other person unless they make a mistake, lag out, or let their guard down thinking the other person isn't about to burst them. Any of those happen and it's lights out. None of those happen, you have a duel that lasts for twenty minutes.
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭albertberku wrote: »This set looks like made for 5 player ball groups made of 50k hp wardens that run in keeps and spam AoEs randomly and pull everyone and cast ultimate to kill 20 players at once. This is exactly where it is going to be used, not against 20v1 permablock tanks, which do not exist anyway. Reminds me Tarnished, a set introduced to make cheese playstyles even more cheese. Lets give it one or two patch cycles and after enough money is paid for the new content it will be nerfed, as how it with Tarnished or any other previous curiously unnecessarily OP (for certain playstyles) new content sets happened.
Honestly you wouldn't probably need or use this set in that scenario vs existing setups that don't rely on the enemy knowing to or being able to activate block.
I doubt this one will see a nerf. Against average players it won't out perform another damage sets and against better players that know how to use block mitigating they will likely know what's up and use offense to put your set at a disadvantage in your damage production.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »Stafford197 wrote: »But this is just another bandaid solution. We even saw this sort of thing way back in the day with Shieldbreaker as a counter to OP Mag Sorc.
No normal player will use this. You’ll be giving up an entire 5-piece set to gain damage against only the permablockers (who are often avoidable). I can only see this set used in a ball group on one DPS to make it easier for them to melt the permablockers…
Fix the actual issues instead.
There is no "actual issue". There are playstyles and there are counters to those playstyles. Just like everything else in the game.
Only one person equipping this set in a group setting counters a tank's ability to effectively block against everything.
This is basically Jeralls for block. A straight counter.
You should need to adapt your playstyle to counter another. That is the point of the game.
It's not a waste of a piece slot but an investment into countering another playstyle.
It is ridiculous in a PvP game that one person can walk around with impunity shrugging off the attacks of 20 opponents.
This is entirely inaccurate.
There is no build in the game that allows you to shrug off the attacks from 20 players indefinitely.
Block doesn't work that way. Nothing does infact.
Well they didn't say indefinitely just with impunity.
Though the outcome can sometimes end up in 20 players walking away because they got bored. Now what needs to be noted is that about 7 were heavy attacking, 3 were healing for no reason, 2 were hitting execute at full or near full health, 2 were just giving away badly timed cc immunity, 3 were hard casting frags and the last 3 were actually using a damage rotation but were in medium damage builds that were designed to take a hit in lag.
I have some clips that make me look amazing as a tank but it really does have a lot to do with who is on the damage end.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »And block tanks aren't a problem to be solved because they are one of the few setups that actually make sense in this game. A player gives up all offensive capability to be become purely defensive.
Who says you have to give up all offense or become purely defensive? This set looks like a direct counter to the none-sense I was playing last month
Overall this game has a severe problem in 1v1 where basically if you don't want to die you don't have to. But that doesn't mean you give up offense. It just means that you can't kill the other person unless they make a mistake, lag out, or let their guard down thinking the other person isn't about to burst them. Any of those happen and it's lights out. None of those happen, you have a duel that lasts for twenty minutes.
Well to be a true block tank you give up damage from your jewelry enchants, damage traits on weapons and have to wear sets dedicated to defense and blocking.
This is different than say a sword and board do or plar who can last for a while but could easily have a hard time blocking everything from one or two players without running out of resources.
This set isn't going to be your most effective way to kill those players because they will use offense to create windows to heal up and recover resources which then starts to nullify the effectiveness of this set.
This set will really only effect block tanks. Any other player that gets killed due to the effect of this set is probably someone you could kill wearing another more all around useful set0 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Well to be a true block tank you give up damage from your jewelry enchants, damage traits on weapons and have to wear sets dedicated to defense and blocking.
This is different than say a sword and board do or plar who can last for a while but could easily have a hard time blocking everything from one or two players without running out of resources.
This set isn't going to be your most effective way to kill those players because they will use offense to create windows to heal up and recover resources which then starts to nullify the effectiveness of this set.
This set will really only effect block tanks. Any other player that gets killed due to the effect of this set is probably someone you could kill wearing another more all around useful set
Yeah, you'd have to give all of that up if you wanted to perma block more than three or four people for sure. But up to two or three you can perma block on a nightblade with little more than a shield, a skill passive, siphoning, and maybe one or two infused block cost reducs (not strictly necessary but it does make it much easier). It's something like 45k-50k hp, 20k pen, and 7k weapon damage when going for a burst. It was hovering around the 40% crit chance range too. This set absolutely deletes my build from the game. But that's fine. It was pretty absurd in IC where no one could use siege and I rarely met more than two enemies at a time anyway. I was basically playing it with the assumption that it would be nerfed somehow eventually.
Ultimately this set is meant as a hard counter to the super troll tank builds out there. And that's fine. It's a lot like the sentry set. It's a hard counter to one specific mechanic but no one is going to be walking around all of the time with it. Where I really see it shining is when playing objectives. BG flag games. Or when a large siege is about to start in a keep if one or two people slap this on then they know they can stop those tanks that waltz right in solo, burn all of the siege right under peopel's noses, and maybe even nab a scroll. It's all about preparation for a scenario with this set. I think that makes it reasonably well balanced in it's own right. But it still doesn't fix the underlying issues that right now in a 1v1 scenario there just is no way to kill another skilled person that doesn't want to die. There is still no fight entropy in the game and that's what is causing so many stalemates. Sets don't really fix that.
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Well to be a true block tank you give up damage from your jewelry enchants, damage traits on weapons and have to wear sets dedicated to defense and blocking.
This is different than say a sword and board do or plar who can last for a while but could easily have a hard time blocking everything from one or two players without running out of resources.
This set isn't going to be your most effective way to kill those players because they will use offense to create windows to heal up and recover resources which then starts to nullify the effectiveness of this set.
This set will really only effect block tanks. Any other player that gets killed due to the effect of this set is probably someone you could kill wearing another more all around useful set
Yeah, you'd have to give all of that up if you wanted to perma block more than three or four people for sure. But up to two or three you can perma block on a nightblade with little more than a shield, a skill passive, siphoning, and maybe one or two infused block cost reducs (not strictly necessary but it does make it much easier). It's something like 45k-50k hp, 20k pen, and 7k weapon damage when going for a burst. It was hovering around the 40% crit chance range too. This set absolutely deletes my build from the game. But that's fine. It was pretty absurd in IC where no one could use siege and I rarely met more than two enemies at a time anyway. I was basically playing it with the assumption that it would be nerfed somehow eventually.
Ultimately this set is meant as a hard counter to the super troll tank builds out there. And that's fine. It's a lot like the sentry set. It's a hard counter to one specific mechanic but no one is going to be walking around all of the time with it. Where I really see it shining is when playing objectives. BG flag games. Or when a large siege is about to start in a keep if one or two people slap this on then they know they can stop those tanks that waltz right in solo, burn all of the siege right under peopel's noses, and maybe even nab a scroll. It's all about preparation for a scenario with this set. I think that makes it reasonably well balanced in it's own right. But it still doesn't fix the underlying issues that right now in a 1v1 scenario there just is no way to kill another skilled person that doesn't want to die. There is still no fight entropy in the game and that's what is causing so many stalemates. Sets don't really fix that.
Well NB is hard to count at the moment because the kit is a bit overtuned. I've built near tanks on a nb and still had some level of burst that was more than you could find on other classes.
That being said yes you can build to block and still have some ability to kill other players if you know how to play the setup well but generally speaking that's more about playing your build well and facing weaker players or having a better class.
1v1 stalemates are by design as far as I can see. From as far as I can tell more people enjoy fights where they get to feel like they got to experience fights vs fights where they get blown away with no understanding of how it happened.
Zos doesn't make players build tanky, players just don't enjoy dying. If you cater more to those that are ok with low ttk you just end up having a game full of vets that can survive in that vs new fresh players who get turned off by this.
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