PVE is at its best balance ever!

valenwood_vegan · November 2

Thing is, I wouldn't frame it as arcanist is OP, as much as I'd say other classes are underperforming, clunky, outdated, poorly organized, half-finished, or in some cases gutted, and unfun to play. Bring them up to par, don't keep knocking things down. Imo.

Ingenon · November 2

Reading these posts, it sounds like multiple people want all the classes to have the same PvE DPS capability, so that all the classes will be used in trials prog groups. I do not remember any time in the game history that all classes have had equal representation in trials prog groups.

PC is now on Update 44, and consoles are scheduled for Update 44 on November 13. If it were humanly possible to do this (all classes have unique identify AND have equal representation in trials prog groups), I believe that it would have happened sometime over all these updates. Seriously folks, it's never going to happen. One class will always have more people using it on PvE trial groups for DPS.

Asking again, since one class will be meta, do folks want a rotation of the meta through the classes? Every update, a different class gets to be PvE DPS meta? Maybe we should have a poll, and vote on which class gets to be meta for Update 45. And then vote on which class gets to be meta for Update 46, and so on.

BasP · November 2

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Don't have to nerf Arc, just buff the other calsses to a position close to Arc. After ZOS finally puts the effect of increasing monster damage into a skill (NB this time), maybe other classes can also have this buff without breaking PVP.
For example, Warden's Northern Storm can be changed to:
Twist a violent storm around you, dealing [4765 / 4816 / 4869 / 4921] Frost Damage every 1 second for 8 seconds to enemies around you and reducing their Movement Speed by 40%. As the storm holds, your Weapon and Spell Damage increases by 50 every 1 second for 5 seconds, and increases damage done to monsters by 1%, up to 10 stacks max. You and nearby allies gain Major Protection, reducing your damage taken by 10%.

Or Sorc's Shattering Spines can be changed to:
After the effect ends the shards shatter, dealing [5240 / 5297 / 5355 / 5413] Magic Damage to any enemy that was encased. Causes an additional 30% damage to monsters.

Yeah, it's nice to see that the "increases damage done to monsters" buff has finally been added to a Class skill. Now that the precedent has been set, it would be great if ZOS would add that buff to some more Classes that are good for PvP but a bit underpowered for PvE.

Ingenon wrote: »

Asking again, since one class will be meta, do folks want a rotation of the meta through the classes? Every update, a different class gets to be PvE DPS meta? Maybe we should have a poll, and vote on which class gets to be meta for Update 45. And then vote on which class gets to be meta for Update 46, and so on.

I personally wouldn't mind it if the meta shifted once, maybe twice, a year. Those that follow the meta would still have quite some time to play as the 'best' class each time, and those that main an underpowered class maybe wouldn't have to spend years hoping for some kind of buff.

Though I would prefer it if the gap between the meta class/ spec and the 'worst' class/ spec wouldn't be as large to begin with. In that case, one wouldn't be 'penalized' as much for playing with ones favourite class instead of going with what's currently meta.

Taril · November 2

Ingenon wrote: »

One class will always have more people using it on PvE trial groups for DPS.

Which is fine.

So long as the "Non-meta" classes aren't ridiculously far behind.

Like, if the best class is only 10% better than the worst class, it will still be "Meta" for min-max players who want to hit the best times. But it won't be such a massive gap that people couldn't prog with other classes.

In general, it is hard to make all classes equal. But it's not so hard to make all classes "Close enough" where people still have options to play non-meta classes and still perform reasonably well (Even more so when you factor in personal skill - Someone might simply play their preferred class better than they play the meta class and put up similar numbers as a result)

It's not like people necessarily need thier class to be meta. But rather that they don't want to feel obliged to play meta because non-meta is completely non-viable even in more casual teams that aren't so crazy into min/max builds.

OtarTheMad · November 2

I don’t think you need to nerf Arc because it won’t solve anything in terms of those ESO Logs. Those players who push for the absolute best score will use any advantage they can to get number 1 and sometimes that doesn’t really speak on class balance or how a class is performing. I think that a lot of players just follow the leader like “so and so on YT said I have to use Arc to get good scores so I only invite Arc to my group.” No. When Necro came out everyone thought that it was “massively OP” because they were in top of trial leaderboards but it was Vulnerability that was OP but Necromancer was nerfed and now it’s poo. We don’t need to repeat that.

All that will lead to is Arcanist being over nerfed just like Necromancer was and just like Sorc was leading to them needing massive changes to catch up to others and just make them fun again. Arcanist needs some minor adjustments but I think it’s fine. They need to work on Necromancer, Templar, NB to bring them up to the level of other classes.

It’s just going to keep circling, Arc gets nerfed then they will go to DK maybe, then we will see DK OP posts and what happened to Arc posts. Then DK gets nerfed and another class takes the top spot and it just keeps going.

If using the broom joke style page would get people higher scores they’d do it, if dancing around and eating sweetrolls got faster scores they’d do that too, shouldn’t nerf a class based on one mode or playstyle. I’ve seen this cycle going on since 2014 and honestly I am just tired of it lol.

Just to add that my idea of class balance is every ability is slottable and fun. You’d never look at an ability and go “that’s garbage.” It’d be “well that’s useful in X situation.” Classes don’t have to have the same dps numbers and should have positives and negatives and be unique. They should just all be fun and not a headache as well.

Desiato · November 2

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Now players will come who will say that you CAN play in other classes anyway.

This is absolutely true though.

Though I agree there is a problem, it isn't as simple as the Arcanist being OP, because it's not necessarily the best performing class in all use cases that it dominates in usage.

What Arcanist excels at as a DPS class is simplicity and ease of play. It is the closest thing there is too to foolproof and Pragmatic can carry squirrels. So RLs love it because it makes raids in ESO so much easier.

DigiAngel · November 2

Servadei wrote: »

Necrom's profit must be amazing.

FWIW I got it for $10.

luen79rwb17_ESO · November 2

How many more years you have to wait to realize the only real solution to this issue?

Rkindaleft · November 3

It feels like we're beating a dead horse every time this topic comes up but PvP and PvE balance simply has to be done separately.

They already have ways to do it, like Battle Spirit, they even made some set effects monster only, but the truth is Nightblade and Warden are both terrible, Necromancer and Sorcerer are only there to be a Support DPS and there's only one of each, Templar is just kind of there (it's viable in vAS I guess) running anything other than DK or Arcanist for damage is just making it harder on yourself and your progression team because of the way that ZOS designs all these fights that require 5 zillion AoE DPS but anytime anyone suggests any buffs to underperforming classes in PvE you get 1000 people saying "Wardens will be unkillable" or "NB is already OP."

Turtle_Bot · November 3

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Or Sorc's Shattering Spines can be changed to:
After the effect ends the shards shatter, dealing [5240 / 5297 / 5355 / 5413] Magic Damage to any enemy that was encased. Causes an additional 30% damage to monsters.

Or sorcs Lightning splash/morphs could be reworked to:

Splash (base):
Create a nexus of storm energy at the target location dealing 280 shock damage every second for 10 seconds. This ability deals 50% increased damage to monsters. This ability has an increased chance to proc concussed status if you have no permanent pets active.

You or an ally can activate the Conduit synergy, dealing [2698] shock damage to enemies around them. Non-player enemies hit by the synergy are also inflicted with Concussed and take 8% increased shock damage for 10 seconds.

Liquid (morph):
Increases duration of DoT and duration of the shock damage debuff from the synergy.

Flood (morph):
Increases damage and radius of DoT.

If ZOS really wanted to, they could even rework liquid lightning morph to be a stamina DoT instead of just a duration increase:
(costs stam, deals physical damage, synergy inflicts sundered status and causes monsters to take 8% increased physical damage for 10 seconds).
This way stamsorc has an in-class stamina DoT for PvE while flood remains the mag version (note, sundered status increases weapon/spell damage so that's why no damage increase for that morph).

Literally has zero impact on PvP, provides an alternative to wall of shock (or endless hail) for Pet builds, but really shines for PvE no-pet builds.

ZhuJiuyin · November 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Literally has zero impact on PvP, provides an alternative to wall of shock (or endless hail) for Pet builds, but really shines for PvE no-pet builds.

Such changes are interesting and will indeed make no-pet sorc better.
But the premise is that Lightning Splash's poor casting animation and delay need to be corrected, otherwise using Lightning Splash will still be a burden for Sorc.

Turtle_Bot · November 3

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Literally has zero impact on PvP, provides an alternative to wall of shock (or endless hail) for Pet builds, but really shines for PvE no-pet builds.

Such changes are interesting and will indeed make no-pet sorc better.
But the premise is that Lightning Splash's poor casting animation and delay need to be corrected, otherwise using Lightning Splash will still be a burden for Sorc.

Agreed with the cast animation being a huge pain point with the ability, but I wouldn't mind it if it was designed exactly like I wrote, that kind of power (especially with the self-usable synergy that boosts shock damage) would be worth slotting, even with the janky cast animation.

endorphinsplox · November 3

The irony is that a lot of the issues in the game right now have largely been influenced by the feedback of toxic casuals who don't understand how the game works and demand nerfs to things they don't like, buffs to the stuff they like, and and overall dumbing down of game mechanics.

ZhuJiuyin · November 3

Developers clearly have a responsibility, as they should be able to discern market feedback and identify toxic opinions.
But now the situation is that the developers are out of touch with the majority of sane players in the community, and it even feels like they don't understand their game.

They created a warden that included ice, animals, and natural elements, but it was difficult for the warden to use Ice Staff because its Passive Abilities were very poor. At the same time, wardens cannot effectively use pets because they only have one pet, and they still have to occupy two bars of the Ultimate skill.
They gave sorc for surge, and added Minor Force to Dark Deal, but did not add Major Prophecy to sorc's class skill. They claim that silenced is sorc's unique ability, but both versions of Negate Magic (damage and healing) perform so poorly that many people don't even know or forget that sorc has the ability silenced. In addition, Negate Magic cannot eliminate many The in-game floor effect makes it more difficult to use in PVP and PVE.

disky · November 3

I don't even do trials and I'm ready to riot. That's pretty wild.