Surprise surprise, the strength of healing is exacerbated by only having 2 team BGs.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 30

Something has to budge ZOS. Increase the Battle Spirit heal debuff, make Healing Skills scale on something other than offensive stats, eliminate HoT Stacking, re-buff Defile, or all of the above. Heals are just obscene without a third team to pressure a group.

It's been like this for a while, but it's easy to dismiss when it's in Cyro as "oh well that's just a ballgroup". In BGs it was kept in check by the third team applying more pressure, but now it's just absurd - and this is coming from someone that mains a healer/support currently.

My build can spit out 30k shields every 2 globals to my entire team in a Battleground. Thats 15k HPS per target from literally just two skills. 60k total HPS for the group is insane - add on lifesteal, my own HoTs, and my teammates HoTs and you can see just how ridiculous that is.

Necrotech_Master · October 30

i honestly still feel it was a wrong decision to nerf all the -healing we used to have (cp1.0 node that boosted -heal, pre-nerf defiles, pre-nerf sets like fasallas)

coop500 · October 30

Please no making battle spirit nerf healing worse. I barely heal jack all in Imperial City as it is.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 30

coop500 wrote: »

Please no making battle spirit nerf healing worse. I barely heal jack all in Imperial City as it is.

No offense, but that is quite literally a build issue. Healing is at an all time high with nerfs to healing reduction modifiers and easier access to positive healing modifiers, plus all of the healing and shielding that can be found in scribing.

coop500 · October 30

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Please no making battle spirit nerf healing worse. I barely heal jack all in Imperial City as it is.

No offense, but that is quite literally a build issue. Healing is at an all time high with nerfs to healing reduction modifiers and easier access to positive healing modifiers, plus all of the healing and shielding that can be found in scribing.

Buff the heal reduction skills then. But I don't think solo players should be crippled alongside grouping players.

xylena_lazarow · October 30

BGs healing is out of control. You don't have meatbags like you do in Cyro. Stacked heals grind matches to a halt, hp bars that don't move when your whole team ult dumps them, it's like the Cyro ball group problem. All other factors equal, healing outpaces damage by far too large a margin at the group level.

IncultaWolf · October 30

Maybe healing shouldn't be scaling off weapon/spell damage, instead make it something you have to actually invest in. This issue is probably not an easy thing to fix.

Major_Mangle · October 30

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Maybe healing shouldn't be scaling off weapon/spell damage, instead make it something you have to actually invest in. This issue is probably not an easy thing to fix.

Or we can adjust the crazy power-creep by looking at individual sources of overperforming support/buff sets, abilities and heals. Instead of changing core mechanics of the game (like how healing, damage etc are calculated and scales), which is more likely to cause more issues than it fixes.

But you´re right, it´s not an easy thing to fix. But I personally think an approach than targets specifics rather than "across the board sweep" changes are healthier.

IncultaWolf · October 30

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BGs healing is out of control. You don't have meatbags like you do in Cyro. Stacked heals grind matches to a halt, hp bars that don't move when your whole team ult dumps them, it's like the Cyro ball group problem. All other factors equal, healing outpaces damage by far too large a margin at the group level.

Hey I just did a 8 v 8 deathmatch with you, the timer lasted the entire match and the highest kills anyone got was 5. Extremely boring

Stafford197 · October 30

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Maybe healing shouldn't be scaling off weapon/spell damage, instead make it something you have to actually invest in. This issue is probably not an easy thing to fix.

But it is an easy thing to fix - remove Weapon/Spell Damage. This is a middleman stat which may as well read: “Adds X base damage and X base healing to all abilities.” Except, it’s even more imbalanced because it is far more effective than Magicka/Stamina scaling, causing both attributes to be watered down…. allowing us to also stack Health with minimal repercussions.

We already have Magicka/Stamina to provide a
baseline for our damage and healing tooltips. After that, there are many different individual %modifiers to damage types or healing which enhance us further.

Damage Dealers provide too much healing because we are investing in a stat which purposely buffs both, and we can build high Health in PvP because the damage loss is minimal. Seems that the issues we currently have are all here on purpose.

Theist_VII · October 30

The easiest solution is to increase the scaling of Max Magicka or Stamina (whichever is highest) on heals and completely remove W/S Damage and Max Health from the equation.

We’ve been saying this forever.

Right before Imperial City launched, I remember Dragon Blood getting completely destroyed by one of the earliest updates and Dragonknights were still #1 for PvE tanking.

Nothing is holding this change back.

Joy_Division · October 30

We've been saying this for years about Cyrodiil. Maybe ZOS might actually listen now that their dedicated update is frustrating people outside of Cyrodiil.

Of course, the last time they tried to address this this did these weird changes to Arctic Blast when we repeatedly told them that the Polar Wind morph was one of the worst offenders of excess PvP healing

Named HoTs should not stack. Only replace/replenish (if they are stronger)
Allowing healing to scale off the same stat as damage was a mistake from the beginning. Used to not be that big of a deal, but once we all got easy access to vigor, scribing, etc., now non healers are putting out way too much healing
ZoS needs to ignore PvPers constant complaints about damage and dying.
In general, damage has not kept paced with healing and, especially, the increases in health. It's crazy meteor still damages us the same as if we were running around with 22K health. Every damage ulti in the game needs a noticeable buff to have an impact on players who stack and spam heals/shields

Parasaurolophus · October 31

I wouldn't mind completely killing the healer role in pvp, significantly reducing outgoing healing.

StihlReign · October 31

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I wouldn't mind completely killing the healer role in pvp, significantly reducing outgoing healing.

A resto staff skill rework to make skills more targeted vs staff spamming and hitting random targets would be a nice start.

xylena_lazarow · October 31

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I wouldn't mind completely killing the healer role in pvp, significantly reducing outgoing healing.

The whole concept of a PvP support role needs to be redesigned, making it both healer and tank at the same time is awful. Make it killable like a PvE healer. Or let's delete it and go by Pale Order rules.

MarioMario · October 31

Talking about 8v8 solo queue, I don't think that in the 40 seconds of preparation the opposing group can set up their buff sets, so it's hard to face a ball group alike team.

Obviously, a group with more cross heals has an advantage, but a good burst build works well in 8v8 no CP.

By the second BG, I switched to a burst AoE build, and when it starts, I try to follow someone I know and burst together with them.

If I have a colossus convergence buddy, people melts.

Soraka · October 31

I don't want support/healing to go away, selfishly because that's all I play. I do agree something has to change, though.

Vulkunne · October 31

lol just get like a couple more points on the scoreboard and let's see who can out-heal the longest.

Sadly, it appears not much has changed in this respect.

BXR_Lonestar · October 31

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Maybe healing shouldn't be scaling off weapon/spell damage, instead make it something you have to actually invest in. This issue is probably not an easy thing to fix.

I main a healer and I have been saying this for years. Its the reason why 3 DD groups are possible - because group heals scale with offensive stats, and DPS usually have better offensive stats than a dedicated healer, so they actually can heal better in most scenarios. The same is true in PVP, but for different reasons. PVP builds usually stack weapon/spell damage so you can sacrifice stat pool for health (more survivability), and by doing so, you maintain heal strength without sacrificing anything.

I don't know if they can fix it though because heals literally work as an inverse of damage - except that it is applied to your group and not to the enemy. So they may have to rebuild the game in order to try to fix this issue.

xylena_lazarow · October 31

Stop asking for healing to scale off max stat pool. This kills solo builds and buffs comp groups with dedicated healers that can minmax around the new restriction. Wrong direction. No, dear god no.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stop asking for healing to scale off max stat pool. This kills solo builds and buffs comp groups with dedicated healers that can minmax around the new restriction. Wrong direction. No, dear god no.

This would nerf both solo and comped groups. Comped groups would no longer have absurdly strong HoT stacking, and would lose quite a bit of healing power as a result.

Yes, it would nerf solo builds, but it's also hard to tell just where solo/1vXing would land because the entire meta would drastically shift. Health pools would dramatically reduce across the board since you would now be punished for scaling max health.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · October 31

How about nerfing the rediculous amount of Heals DAMAGE DEALERS can give themselves without actually being a Healer instead of nerfing actual support players even more?

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Maybe healing shouldn't be scaling off weapon/spell damage, instead make it something you have to actually invest in. This issue is probably not an easy thing to fix.

because group heals scale with offensive stats, and DPS usually have better offensive stats than a dedicated healer,

THIS is the actual issue.

seventyfive · October 31

Battle-Spirit reduces healing by 65%, damage shields by 62% and maximum health by 12%.

Done. Literally done.

A significant improvement to player versus player combat, and the change can be made by an intern in a few minutes, provided he or she can ask a senior in which of the thousands of files this particular setting resides...

React · October 31

Apply a penalty to healing/shields received from other players specifically through battlespirit, and limit stacks of same morph sticky HOTs to two.

This will instantly improve the problem scenarios with overtuned heals/supports as well as group hot/shielding stacking, without hurting solo/uncoordinated players nearly as much. Supports will still be effective and arguably even more in demand, but they won't be as broken as they are right now. Who knows, maybe if we're lucky we'd even be able to move the healthbars of a 60k EHP ballgroup player!

Estin · October 31

React wrote: »

Apply a penalty to healing/shields received from other players specifically through battlespirit, and limit stacks of same morph sticky HOTs to two.

This will instantly improve the problem scenarios with overtuned heals/supports as well as group hot/shielding stacking, without hurting solo/uncoordinated players nearly as much. Supports will still be effective and arguably even more in demand, but they won't be as broken as they are right now. Who knows, maybe if we're lucky we'd even be able to move the healthbars of a 60k EHP ballgroup player!

This is exactly how it should be. Simply nerfing healing done by more % or have it scale on something other than w/s damage isn't going to put much if any dent into the problem and would just cause problems elsewhere. It's healing received from other players than needs to be cut down by a lot, as well as the infinite healstacking. It's probably much easier to implement as well without disrupting gameplay everywhere else in the game.

Theist_VII · October 31

Estin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Apply a penalty to healing/shields received from other players specifically through battlespirit, and limit stacks of same morph sticky HOTs to two.

This will instantly improve the problem scenarios with overtuned heals/supports as well as group hot/shielding stacking, without hurting solo/uncoordinated players nearly as much. Supports will still be effective and arguably even more in demand, but they won't be as broken as they are right now. Who knows, maybe if we're lucky we'd even be able to move the healthbars of a 60k EHP ballgroup player!

This is exactly how it should be. Simply nerfing healing done by more % or have it scale on something other than w/s damage isn't going to put much if any dent into the problem and would just cause problems elsewhere. It's healing received from other players than needs to be cut down by a lot, as well as the infinite healstacking. It's probably much easier to implement as well without disrupting gameplay everywhere else in the game.

Nope, the best solution would be to make heals scale off of Max Magicka or Max Stamina.

Changing this would have zero effect on PvE as players run either single or bi-stat food while stacking one stat, tanks still have their Max Health heals like Green Dragon’s Blood, and players that want to solo in PvP can still heal themselves by moving Health points into their resources… just like what ball groups and healers would have to do, all while everyone except for tanks benefit from the continued damage scaling off of those stats.

This would force people to consider stat sets once again for survival while reducing the overall procs we see in today’s PvP.

Not rocket science, still unclear why this hasn’t happened yet, as it fixes literally every problem.

xylena_lazarow · October 31

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope, the best solution would be to make heals scale off of Max Magicka or Max Stamina

This obliterates most solo builds in the game, while having no significant impact on minmax comp groups, they slightly change their minmax then continue doing the same exact thing. It would basically force an MMO trinity type system on PvP, severely restrict solo play, and widen the gap between comp and randoms. Wrong direction.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope, the best solution would be to make heals scale off of Max Magicka or Max Stamina

This obliterates most solo builds in the game, while having no significant impact on minmax comp groups, they slightly change their minmax then continue doing the same exact thing. It would basically force an MMO trinity type system on PvP, severely restrict solo play, and widen the gap between comp and randoms. Wrong direction.

As I already explained, it would severely nerf groups too because it would demolish DPS cross heals. DPS cross heals are where the majority of the passive healing of groups comes from. True healers are really only there for defending against and recovering from big combos/dumps.

If you scale heals off of max stat, you now have to pick between 2 of 3 things - max damage, max healing (mag/stam), or max health. Right now you can have all 3, and that's the core issue.

Theist_VII · October 31

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope, the best solution would be to make heals scale off of Max Magicka or Max Stamina

This obliterates most solo builds in the game, while having no significant impact on minmax comp groups, they slightly change their minmax then continue doing the same exact thing. It would basically force an MMO trinity type system on PvP, severely restrict solo play, and widen the gap between comp and randoms. Wrong direction.

Explain how moving from Tarnished Nightmare to Bone Pirate would devolve your experience?

You would then be able to cull ball groups as 35k+ health builds would no longer be the standard, if anything, this change favors the individual, as burst would clean house.

Theist_VII · October 31

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope, the best solution would be to make heals scale off of Max Magicka or Max Stamina

This obliterates most solo builds in the game, while having no significant impact on minmax comp groups, they slightly change their minmax then continue doing the same exact thing. It would basically force an MMO trinity type system on PvP, severely restrict solo play, and widen the gap between comp and randoms. Wrong direction.

As I already explained, it would severely nerf groups too because it would demolish DPS cross heals. DPS cross heals are where the majority of the passive healing of groups comes from. True healers are really only there for defending against and recovering from big combos/dumps.

If you scale heals off of max stat, you now have to pick between 2 of 3 things - max damage, max healing (mag/stam), or max health. Right now you can have all 3, and that's the core issue.

Right, I’ve had this opinion for years, and have broken down every possible outcome to the point where I can confidently say this is what needs to happen.

Whether or not it does, is another question entirely. We should have seen a balance patch for the PvP update but ZOS were too busy unraveling the 2017 Battlegrounds code.

xylena_lazarow · October 31

Theist_VII wrote: »

Explain how moving from Tarnished Nightmare to Bone Pirate would devolve your experience

No, I'd be moving from my 64 hp DK brawler into a Sorc or NB that actually benefits from a max stat pool meta. And so would a lot of other minmax tryhards. Forcing solo brawlers into inferior max stat pool builds, that are now strained for density by another stat, accomplishes what exactly? Ball groups don't lose a thing. If you think ball groups can't minmax around this restriction with ease, then you vastly underestimate them, and should talk to more ball group players.