Volatile population on NA GH main server: one guild causes the entire map to flip

reazea

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Yesterday morning: blue ball group running, blue map, DC holds 6 scrolls, opponents log out and/or stop trying

Yesterday afternoon: red ball group running, red map, EP holds 6 scrolls, opponents log out and/or stop trying

Yesterday evening: gold ball group running, gold map, AD holds 6 scrolls, opponents log out and/or stop trying

Right now: red zerg guild running unopposed, EP holds all 6 scrolls, not a single AD player trying to do anything

So basically all it takes is one guild to destroy the entire server. Doesn't even need to be a ball group, but make no mistake, it only takes 12 people trying hard to completely ruin PvP, send dozens of casuals and randoms logging out, and render the scoreboard meaningless. This isn't a problem us players are going to solve, the devs need to rein in the damage that can be done to the game by just a single group, and understand that the majority of players in this PvP (and pretty much every game) are casual randoms and will stay casual randoms, it's an extremely tiny minority of what's already a minority of players that actually engage in ESO organized group PvP. Don't make the same mistake DaoC did.

If this bothers you maybe you should consider not doing it yourself.

reazea

AngryPenguin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Pop caps have nothing to do with it. The server is fine when all 3 factions are high pop.

For years around launch, there was no reason you couldn't take out 10 organized with 20 random. You could mess up their movement with Oil Catapults and Caltrops. They had to rely on standing inside stationary Healing Springs to stack HoTs. They didn't have braindead garbage like Earthgore or Rushing Agony that automate difficult tactics.

They've shifted all the power away from piloting your individual group build, and onto the comp (group setup), meaning fights are decided by the stat sheet and not gameplay, and organized groups' gear plays the game for them to an extent far beyond any solo Tarnished ganker. These are the players who need zero help because they're already organized.

Yet players continue making excuses for why it's fine for the rich to keep getting richer, so nothing changes, sorta like the real world. Someday, science will learn so much from studying gamers.

Pop caps as low as they are in Cyrodiil now days absolutely has a lot to do with imbalance in the zone. As it is now, with pop caps this low, it's impossible to field enough randoms to deal with a ball group. You can hit a ball group dead center with a cold fire ballista and do less than 1k damage total on the group due to the heal and shield stacking...an issue people have been pointing out is a problem since I'd say circa 2016 and maybe earlier.

Minimum population cap for a viable and competitive cyrodiil are at least double what the cap is today. The people playing on the dominant faction always seem to think everything is just fine, even if they've stated in the past they crave competition and faction lock should be abolished because they want to move to a faction that isn't running the map, they still tend to stay on the strongest faction.

This.

Daniel5770

Reading this tread… hmm..yes ballgroups problem still here and all hate it.. thats true.. seem some ep compain but yall are the same and dc too.. ad nightcaps now and eps are complaning this that.. yall are the same zerging dc 1 bar while not fighting ad 2-3 bar when ep 3 bar… lol
Right now ep chose to get dc homekeeps while ad has arius and chal and eps both scroll..

xylena_lazarow

reazea wrote: »

If this bothers you maybe you should consider not doing it yourself... even if they've stated in the past they crave competition and faction lock should be abolished because they want to move to a faction that isn't running the map, they still tend to stay on the strongest faction.

Yes I do in fact log out when my own faction is rolling the map. You want my receipts for purchasing faction change tokens from the Crown Store too? Right now given the extreme server volatility, I have no idea which faction I could even switch to, sure AD has dominated the past 2 camps, but EP dominated the previous 6 camps, go back a little further and you see that DC dominated the entire server for a good 2-3 years until several major guilds retired.

Right now I'm not gonna spend thousands of Crowns to switch factions again, only for my new faction to end up the new high pop zerg, with me unable to go back on it due to useless faction locks forcing the camp to stay dead.

xylena_lazarow

EP has a structured zerg guild on right now. AD and DC do not. It's currently NA morning and Asia evening.





The scoreboard paints a wildly different picture, because factions take turns doing this to each other and AD has been doing it the most this camp, thanks to having a more consistent organized group presence than EP or DC.



So despite my faction's score, I'd certainly rather be gold than red on this map. When the EP guild for this time slot takes a day off, this does not happen. The power delta between random and organized is too damn high.

reazea

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

If this bothers you maybe you should consider not doing it yourself... even if they've stated in the past they crave competition and faction lock should be abolished because they want to move to a faction that isn't running the map, they still tend to stay on the strongest faction.

Yes I do in fact log out when my own faction is rolling the map. You want my receipts for purchasing faction change tokens from the Crown Store too? Right now given the extreme server volatility, I have no idea which faction I could even switch to, sure AD has dominated the past 2 camps, but EP dominated the previous 6 camps, go back a little further and you see that DC dominated the entire server for a good 2-3 years until several major guilds retired.

Right now I'm not gonna spend thousands of Crowns to switch factions again, only for my new faction to end up the new high pop zerg, with me unable to go back on it due to useless faction locks forcing the camp to stay dead.

No you don't.

We play on the same server. Yesterday you defended Arrius while AD gated both factions and took all six scrolls.

Kamchuk

Back in the early 1990’s, Bill Clinton had a campaign slogan that said: “It’s the economy, stupid”. You can substitute the word economy in that phrase with “ballgroup” to get an accurate description of the issues with Cyro.

Back in July I came back to ESO from a year’s absence. I had quit because my frustrations were out of balance with something is meaningless as a video game. I came back mostly because my wife just started playing on the PS5 and loves it. I would get back on my PC to upgrade my build and pre-fight bosses so that I could advise her. And I also ventured back to Cyro. After 3 months, my frustration level has returned. (Yes – it took 3 whole months. Being married for 39 years forces you to learn the concept of PATIENCE.) The last straw was when after AD had removed both EP scrolls, and EP retook the tri-keeps, an AD ballgroup AND a DC ballgroup showed up at Arrius to pummel EP players. At this time, EP was at the bottom by several thousand points AND outnumbered. Several EP were confused why EP was getting Greenteamed when there was nothing more for us to defend and astonished when both ballgroups were not only working together but intermingled with each other to defeat the defenseless EP. I called it what it is: BULLYING.

The real issue I have is that this bullying environment was not only created by ZOS, it is sustained and promoted by them despite complaints. (The DEVS are geeks – weren’t they bullied in school?...). I’m not a psychologist so I won’t go any further. And IMO, the solution for ballgroups is rather easy: make groups in Cyro only for communications and quest sharing – nothing else. No HOT stacking, no Synergy, etc., nothing else. Just for organization purposes. (Puts less strain on the servers too…)

But this will never happen. When Bethesda released a DLC for another game and received complaints from the players, their response was: “you aren’t playing the game right”. I guess we aren’t playing Bethesda’s ESO game correctly either.

In the late 1990’s when I worked for Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs and they were entering their death spiral, a book was published titled: “Who Moved My Cheese”. I think that book was applicable then for Lucent, and now for ESO.

SeaGtGruff

Depending on what I want to do in Cyrodiil, I might stick around if the map is all one color, or I might just leave for the night.

When I'm hoping to repair some damaged structures for an endeavor, I'll leave if the map is all one color and not a single keep is controlled by my alliance.

When I'm hoping to do some actual PvP, I'll leave if the map is all one color and every keep is controlled by my alliance.

If I'm hoping to collect skyshards, complete delves, complete dolmens, and/or do questing, having the map be all one color can actually be helpful in some cases-- especially if my alliance is the one that controls everything, but not necessarily. Even if an enemy alliance controls everything, a solid-colored map often equates to a boring situation in which no one is doing any fighting, and any fighting that is going on is easy to see and avoid-- plus, if an enemy alliance controls everything, that means the other enemy alliance's gates are open and their skyshards can be collected. (I actually completed all of that stuff a long time ago on my main character, but there are always my alt characters to think about.)

As far as anyone who wants to actually PvP, I don't get why anyone would want to flip the entire map to their own color and then keep it that way, because it's so boring. Sure, you get more points toward winning the campaign. But is that the only reason you're in Cyrodiil, to win the campaign and get the very best end-of-campaign rewards? Whatever happened to just having fun?

Sleepsin

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

EP has a structured zerg guild on right now. AD and DC do not. It's currently NA morning and Asia evening.





The scoreboard paints a wildly different picture, because factions take turns doing this to each other and AD has been doing it the most this camp, thanks to having a more consistent organized group presence than EP or DC.



So despite my faction's score, I'd certainly rather be gold than red on this map. When the EP guild for this time slot takes a day off, this does not happen. The power delta between random and organized is too damn high.

So it's organized group presence when AD does it, yet a structured zerg guild when other factions do it. Your bias is showing

Necrotech_Master

darvaria wrote: »

I just hope the new 8v8's are group and solo gue. Runescape has an arena called guild wars, where one guild can fight another guild. I don't see how this would be that hard to implement and give the guilds something to do.

its already been posted in other places, but the 8v8 wont allow groups larger than 4 to queue

there will be a separate solo and group queue though

i mean if they can do an 8v8 BG, they could always do a 12v12 BG that allows a full 12 person group to queue, though i doubt anyone would use this outside of actual competitive groups

darvaria

Hmmmm ... I don't agree that ball players are low skill noobs.

Elendir2am

darvaria wrote: »

Hmmmm ... I don't agree that ball players are low skill noobs.

The question is, what does the current imbalance around the ball group offer to high skill players to play in BG, when low skill players can do exactly the same thing with nearly same result.

xylena_lazarow

Elendir2am wrote: »

The question is, what does the current imbalance around the ball group offer to high skill players to play in BG, when low skill players can do exactly the same thing with nearly same result.

It offers pug stomping. A low skill ceiling means that it takes a low amount of skill to play optimally. Feels like that whole "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" thing wanted to make PvP more accessible but for some reason they only applied it to organized groups, i.e. the biggest tryhards who need the absolute least amount of help.

Ganker jumps into the group? Don't even need to pay attention because Earthgore or whatever saves you. Get separated from the group? Who cares, you've got 15 seconds before your 15k/sec sticky HoT stack expires. Time to set up the bomb? Don't bother, Rushing Agony sets it up for you. Enemy trying to disrupt group movement with Caltrops and such? Laugh at them for trying to use mechanics that your 1pc Snow Treaders deletes from the game.

Stop putting the game on easy mode for the players who don't need it. Nerf comps. Buff randoms.

xylena_lazarow

reazea wrote: »

No you don't. We play on the same server. Yesterday you defended Arrius while AD gated both factions and took all six scrolls.

Sleepsin wrote: »

So it's organized group presence when AD does it, yet a structured zerg guild when other factions do it. Your bias is showing

I'm only quoting these because they were reported for being ad hominem bait but haven't been moderated.

xylena_lazarow

Any given time zone can vary wildly from what you see on the scoreboard.



This is the current server pop 9am EST on an entirely red map.

xylena_lazarow

Population 7am EST on what should in theory be prime time for Asia/Oceania on a Friday evening?



The server pop for these time zones is collapsing. For months/years one single group/guild would roll the map and make the entire server unplayable for randoms. This is the result of catering to organized groups only, in a game and gaming culture that is heavy majority casual randoms who intend on staying casual randoms.

baguette_poolish

Collapsing update, 7:46 am EST, collapse is in full swing. Reporting that it has in fact collapsed.

Soraka

It seems like lately wherever the action is is either completely one sided stomping or an hours long stalemate.

darvaria

Elendir2am wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

Hmmmm ... I don't agree that ball players are low skill noobs.

The question is, what does the current imbalance around the ball group offer to high skill players to play in BG, when low skill players can do exactly the same thing with nearly same result.

Well I think timing and even gear needed moves ball group players to a skilled player category. I don't run in a ball group but did some in the past .... and it was NOT easy. Way easier to block around solo on a tank.

darvaria

Theignson wrote: »

I cancelled my account and have stopped playing. Once in a while i may pop in. I am sad that I gave up the game. I have 10k+ hours. It was a great game.

Yeah, it took a lot to get you to leave ...... my last friend in game. Enjoyed our many years and hopefully you return one day

Stridig

baguette_poolish wrote: »

Collapsing update, 7:46 am EST, collapse is in full swing. Reporting that it has in fact collapsed.

But why is Rayles burst when there are no scrolls back there? That's poor sportsmanship at its finest.

darvaria

There is no "sportsmanship" now. All sides are equally guilty of doing this. Just PV Dooring. Actually you don't even get many fights now, it's a giant color wash. This type of PV Dooring ruins it for ALL factions. The above map is ruined for EP as well. I just log off even when they start the scroll running because it's always like 3 or 4 bars vs 1 bar for the other 2 factions.

Elendir2am

darvaria wrote: »

Well I think timing and even gear needed moves ball group players to a skilled player category. I don't run in a ball group but did some in the past .... and it was NOT easy. Way easier to block around solo on a tank.

"did some in the past" - Question is what is in past.
ZOS systematically buff ball groups and make sets to simplify their gameplay.

You can observe "copy paste" ballgroupers who just do what they saw. Without propery timing, not keeping stack on crown, slow kitting, too long staying on ram.

Yet this groups can destroy zerg easily no matter how bad they are.

AngryPenguin

With population caps this low this is just how it's going to be all the time. If one faction has one bar more than the opposing faction that is 20 more players, which is plenty to roll the map while keeping the opposing faction locked down at a single keep.

The crazy low population caps are the problem, not that each faction has their time slot of dominance.

xylena_lazarow

darvaria wrote: »

There is no "sportsmanship" now.

Maybe I'm an old lady yelling at clouds, but it feels like there's no sportsmanship anywhere anymore, like in our whole culture it's been replaced by "win at all costs" or "haha screw those guys" for a while now.

xylena_lazarow

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The crazy low population caps are the problem

It doesn't matter what the caps are when it's 20-30 players per side. When each faction has 60-80 during prime time it's fine, this thread is about the power of a single organized group screwing the map during off hours.

YandereGirlfriend

It's definitely the low overall number of players in Cyro. It allows any group of 30-40 to completely run the map. People will show up to defend for a few keeps on the losing sides but after you get rolled 10v40 a few times people just log out. There aren't really any glorious defenses anymore... it's just prolonging the time it takes to eventually lose a keep. And your Scrolls, etc.

I've seen two servers die already (PC-NA Ravenwatch, Blackreach) and it honestly feels like we're on the path to see a third (Grey Host). Raven was killed by the No-Proc "test" that never should have happened. But all have come in the current low pop cap/megatank/woeful performance era that has existed since ~2021. Make of that what you will.

Rather than reductively blame playstyles... I would instead direct that focus over to the neglect that Cyro as a whole has received over the years. I mean, the campaigns aren't even re-named anymore.

Remember when there were supposed to be more Daedric Artifacts? When the Dwarven Lancer was added? When you could get Master Weapons rewards from the Leaderboard? When you could actually have big faction fights without getting booted to login and wasting half of your night in the re-queue? When there wasn't three seconds of input lag? Think what you will of those individual ideas but the point is that there were ideas and plans and tangible investments being made into the game mode. And there... just isn't anymore (or at least none that anyone actually knows about...).

And I think that a lot of players are just over it. There are a lot of games out there. They dealt and coped and hoped for better but nobody's patience lasts forever.

To modify and to sum-up what someone wrote above, "It's the performance and the vibes, stupid!" If you could actually play the game with decent pop caps in prime time with no crashes or lag and if there was excitement and buzz and progress being made toward fixes and new additions... I honestly think that a lot of people would come back to play. Because ESO combat still dunks on every other MMO out there (yes, especially T&L, which is getting touted so much these days). But it needs those things. Otherwise it feels like a game mode without a future. Like a... vestige, if you will.

TechMaybeHic

It should be well into prime time right now, and we only have one locked faction swarming anything that lights. Grayhost is the new Blackreach.

Sleepsin

Whomever had the idea to get all those guilds to faction stack one alliance, well done. I'm not sure PvP will be able to recover this time.

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

It should be well into prime time right now, and we only have one locked faction swarming anything that lights. Grayhost is the new Blackreach.

Wonder if the new BGs are cannibalizing Cyro players. Yesterday I ended up in BGs because the Cyro map was being rolled by my own faction (boring) even during NA prime time, which is concerning. It's not the stupid pop caps because the server wasn't even full, I saw 4/3/4 bars around 7pm EST.

Bottom line, AD had organized groups while the other factions didn't, so they auto won even though the pops were mostly even, except for the collapsing EP daytime pop, which is probably due to being punished for their teammates nightcapping, and probably the toxic faction culture of all caps zerglords barking orders and arguing with each other.