Vampire Rework Idea 09/29/2024 (Ver. 2.0)

Silvains_Demon

I've seen a few ideas on the rework of vampirism. I think it's definitely of importance to make sure that if someone is being a vampire, that it does not just turn into a passive-based thing. It should be something that allows players to use some skills and feel that the passives are of enough benefit to bear some negatives. I'll be going into detail about my idea starting from the Ultimate Ability, down to the Actives, and finally with the Passives with one or two final details.

URL back to the Home Post - I have made a "Home" of sorts that is going to be knitting a lot of these ideas of mine together. It is just the beginning of a bunch of discussions.This will be fun!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666989/home-post-whiterun-vampire-rework-werewolf-rework-new-skill-line-idea#latest

NOTE: As you read this, you may see that I provide approximate times for things or the general idea of what something should be used for, but lack giving out damage numbers or AoE ranges. I leave these details out because I fully understand that testing is required and a general direction is best, not micromanaging every detail. This allows for leeway since if I say "I think this ability should do 9k magic damage with a 20k bleed over 5 seconds" that the ability in question may seem broken or weak when tested.

Vampire rework idea version: 2.0

So, this is a rework idea I had for the Vampire Skill line. I had one before but as you can see, I edited the original post and created a revised “2.0” of it. If you want the 1st version (or version “1.5” before this) of it, I can just create a discussion for it.

Ultimate Ability:

Proposed Vampire Ult mechanic:
- I am putting this here to shrink the information for the Ult category. When it comes to this, I propose that the Vampire Ult serve two functions. The first is the ability to toggle into and out of the Scion form with either a hold of the Ult-related controls or a press of them. Then, there is a feature that would be opposite of them in controls. It would be the “actual” Ult. An AoE Burst-type feature. This would cause an explosion around the player and have modified effects based around what form you are in (mortal or Scion form) as well as what morph you chose. The basis of the ability is based around the formula: Plus 10K to Max Health, Stamina, and Magicka/ heals 50% (50% is a placeholder) of Max Health (before 10k increase), damage AoE (heals percentage done). The increase to Max Health and Resources would also change depending on the morph you chose later on (for Blood Scion and Swarming Scion, this would stay the same as current).. There are also the effects current as well that activate when you transform such as healing from 15% of all damage dealt and seeing enemies through walls. These would be reworked to activate when the AoE Burst is used instead. As for the name of the AoE Burst? Not completely set on it. Could be “Vampire’s Wrath” or “Lamae’s Blessing” or something. I didn’t really think of a name for the feature.

Blood Scion (Base Ult)

- Now, as for this. The Blood Scion is the starting transformation the vampiric player gets. The player can transform at will now instead of using their Ult. As for why would it matter now? Well, the vampire active abilities would have (potentially) different functions when transformed. As a starting vampire, the Blood Scion is part of the vampire’s journey to vampiric power (unless you don’t build into it depending on your needs). When using the new proposed feature (I’ll just call it “Vampire’s Wrath” as a placeholder for now), there are no added mechanics or features. For this form, it takes after the current model, which is almost a copy and paste of the Necromancer’s Tank Ult where you still have access to both bars and non-vampiric abilities.


Swarming Scion (Morph)

- This morph is not any different in model from the Blood Scion. Appearance-wise it would be nice to be able to see more additional armor added on to show a difference between it and the Blood Scion. As for differences, this version is different mechanically based around Vampire’s Wrath. This version would still have access to the bat swarm that is current. The difference is that the current 20 second timer goes up to 30, and the mortal form gains an altered form of it, similar to the ability prior to Greymoor. This would give the player 15 seconds of Ult time with the ability to teleport to a targeted individual and deal magic damage.


Perfect Scion (Morph)

- This morph version would be different from Blood Scion and Swarming Scion. It would work similar to Werewolf based around that you are locked into one bar. Looks-wise, it would be similar to the Vampire Lords, but slimmer, smaller, armored or robed. It should be smaller than the other two Scion forms but bigger than the mortal form. Now, functionally, it would be different. I’ll go more into details with 2 paragraphs. The first will be about the uniques of the Perfect Scion. The second will be about the upgrade to Vampire’s Wrath.

- Now, as for Perfect Scion, the first unique is that it will have 2 permanent pets (Bloodfiends as a placeholder). Another detail is that certain active abilities would have different abilities even more so than the Blood and Swarming Scion forms because of the uniqueness of the form. The Vampire Stage for the Perfect Scion form (not the mortal form) would be locked. It would have the benefits of all 4 Vampire Stages with Stage 2 disadvantages. As for the Light and Heavy Attack, the Light attack would be about throwing an individual Dark (or Blood) Spear. As for the Heavy, it turns into an AoE with minor Bleed. The Heavy Attack restores Magicka. Finally, while in this form, your Max Magicka is increased by 30%.

- As for Vampire’s Wrath, the AoE Burst deals more damage with less healing per percentage for whoever it hits. The Max Resource increase is modified, with the Scion-form receiving 5k to Max Health, 10k to Max Stamina, and 15k to Max Magicka. As for mortal form, it would remain the same Max Resource-wise to the original form. When activated, both forms still gain access to Vampire Stage 5 and the Max Resource gain is still 20 seconds. For mortal form, this would last 30 to 40 seconds. As for Scion form, this is 20 to 30 seconds. For Scion form, it would cause both pets to explode, both resummon after 20 seconds or when half the Ult cost is built up. If killed from other sources, they respawn after 5 to 10 seconds.


Active Abilities: For active abilities, you may notice I am adding an extra detail since they may work differently while in Scion form.

Added Detail: Before I begin. Any ability that if used, cancels healing from others, I would trade with a healing reduction from outer sources (keeping full healing from self, pets, and companions as listed currently).

Eviscerate

- It’s an okay-ish spammable. The resource cost should be dependent on which form is taken for the base and Arterial Burst. For Blood and Swarming Scion it would be Stamina, and for Perfect Scion it should be Magicka. For Blood for Blood, it can stay as is with the resource cost but maybe add an execute ability based around the enemy’s Health as well.

Blood Frenzy

- For mortal form, it can stay the same (remember “Added Detail” though). For Scion form, the base ability and Simmering Frenzy would remain the same while Sated Frenzy becoming a defensive ability. For cost, I think it would be an interesting idea to keep it as a toggle but have a reduced cost. It should not be more than 75% to 80% of total Health Recovery. The use of this ability gives Major Resolve and Minor Protection.

- As for Perfect Scion, from base and the morphs, it gains Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for having this ability slotted.

Vampiric Drain

- Mortal variants stay the same but with increased healing percentage. For Scion forms, Exhilarating Drain becomes a ranged AoE. The aspects of damage, healing, and Ult generation staying the same (though, with multiple targets, it would scale like other multi-target damage/heal type attacks with the Ult Generation effect going off of at least hitting an enemy). For Drain Vigor, it would stay the same for Blood and Swarming Scion (and mortal form) but with increased Stamina generation. As for Perfect Scion, it becomes able to generate Magicka, with a certain amount being re-gained even after the ability is done being channeled for around 20 to 30 seconds (losing the Stamina generation feature).

- As for Perfect Scion, from base and the morphs, it gains Major Savagery and Major Prophecy for having this ability slotted.

Mesmerize

- For starters, I think this was a unique ability, though please put it in the description that it can be used on merchants for Stage 4 players who may not know. As for mortal form, it is relatively good to keep it as is. For Scion form, the base ability and Stupefy can stay as is. It allows for some good stuns and snares. As for Hypnosis, I would make it serve 2 different functions. Allow it to serve as a limited range stun for the front like the base ability (or stay as the present circular AoE), but I would add a ranged taunt. This allows for some more interesting play if someone wants to be a vampire tank.

Mist Form

- One of the best things about vampires is the ability to turn into mist. When it started, it negated damage by 75% if I remember correctly. Now it causes the next three projectiles to miss. If anything, for mortal form I would make the base and Elusive Mist forms stay as their current "move to marked location" style of play with an added benefit of increasing the buffs to around 7-10 seconds, as well as causing projectiles to miss, though, maybe cause the next three targeted attacks to miss instead (AoEs still hit). As for Blood Mist, I would return it to where you control it toggle-wise. The buff would revert to the previous 75% damage negation (though it would not be flat. Stage 1 gets 25%. Stage 2 gets 50%, with the last 3 and 4 Stages getting the 75%). As for Scion forms, they would also be the same as the mortal forms.

- For Perfect Scion, Elusive Mist gains a different function. Instead of being a movement-type of ability, it allows the player to become semi-mist instead, gaining Major Evasion and Major Expedition for 20 seconds with the damage negation of Stage 4 above (though once you hit 10 seconds, it drops to 50% with another drop at 5 seconds for 25%).

Passive Abilities: I may reorder the passives you get for better player experience.

Feed

- Starting passive. I think if anything, that the Health Recovery debuff needs some slight changing. If anything, the formula should work as this: (Base Health Recovery Subtracted by Health Recovery Debuff percentage) + Health Recovery from sets, enchantments, and consumables. This would allow for vampires to still be affected by their choice of vampirism and the current stage, but gives the appearance that the curse does not completely cut off healing.

Dark Stalker

- No changes. It makes sense that vampires would be stealthy outright.

- For the Perfect Scion, this would give the stealth button (analog for controller) a unique function. This would allow for the Perfect Scion to become a mist low to the ground, reducing your radius of being detected by one meter. For combat, it becomes an instant teleport. This teleport consumes 33% of the player's total stamina and propels the player up to 12 meters (the Sorcerer skill Bolt Escape goes up to 15 meters, and costs around 3289 or so magicka when at rank 4 and morphed. This is to prevent the ability from becoming something that anyone can abuse and it won't beat a class-related skill). The use of this would proc the Strike from Shadows damage buff (+300 damage for 12 seconds).

Strike from Shadows (Stage 2 or higher)

- No changes. It makes sense for them to be here as a damage buff. 6 seconds is a good amount of time for +300 damage increase.

- For the Perfect Scion, this would give the form an added damage buff of 18% to all damage dished out. I think this is fair as a damage buff, as it shouldn't be too big when compared to other buffs, and like it's counterpart, the WW. Also, the +300 damage from the Strike from Shadows Passive gains an added upgrade from 6 seconds to 12 seconds.

Unnatural Movement (Stage 3 or higher)

- I think this should get moved up to here. It is a movement type and stealth type of passive. Putting it at this stage allows for players to plan on either stopping here or going one step further for that last passive.

Undeath (Stage 4)

- Undeath has been one of the most controversial passives from what I can tell. It is a fairly decent passive that currently allows for a 15% reduction in the damage taken, but it is based on your missing health. If anything, this skill is hard to shape into fairness. So for my own opinion, I would look above at the things I have done and make this change: Reduce damage taken by 15%, with the range of health not being from 100% to 0%, but from 100% to 30%. There are other takes, but I think this is rather fair. In a game like this, if you make a build right and master it, I have seen tanks be able to stay alive for minutes in PvP in a 1v8+ and they were not a vampire. I don't think this proposed change would be game breaking, but as this is such a controversial passive, this is just my take on it.

Note for Undeath: I will be honest, I was thinking of putting a buff here for Major Resolve, but I think that would be too much for permanent defensive buffs plus it conflicts with the potential morph of Sated Frenzy here. So, I went with the added Perfect Scion buff with Dark Stalker.

Added Details: With these changes, any set related to vampirism may need a rework. For instance, Shapeshifter's Chain would need a rework since a 15% reduction in an Ult cost would maybe not be good depending on if the current Ult Costs transfer over to this proposed change. I know this proposed idea, if looked at seriously, would take time to deliver on, but I think it would be worth it. If anything, it would maybe give the Werewolf Skill line a small touch-up and rework. Not to mention the tank Ult for the Necromancer.


I hope that whoever reads this enjoyed it. Also, you may notice I left out Blood Ritual. It doesn't serve any combat or other significant gameplay function, so I left it out of the proposed changes. It should stay as is.

It was a pleasure to write this post!

Elyu

Lots of good stuff here!
I'll leave other people to get into the detail, but the suggestion of the functioning of the ulti is what really got my attention.

There's always been a debate on these forums about WW vs vamp, and how with WW you could have it but ignore it with no downsides, whereas with vamp you can't ignore it, and it's either 100% required, or 100% do not have, depending on content (PvP vs PvE) or the current game balance.

If I may build on your suggestion:

Once completed the vamp or WW quest on your char, the ultimate becomes available to slot. Rather than it being a "curable" state it's only active IF YOU SLOT THE ULTIMATE. And doing so double-bars the ultimate, preventing you from accessing any other ultimate abilities. This allows you to easily switch between "normal", "WW" and "vamp" depending on situation, without having to go through either the tedium of the unlock quests (verrryy boring for repeat playthroughs) or being forced to buy multiple slots in the armoury (per character!) just to add/remove WW/vamp without having to either grind the quest...again...or burn real money.

So: ultimate slotted, WW/vamp activated, now what?
Well as OP suggests, I think WW should be a toggleable ulti with 0 ult cost - can be activated/deactivated whenever player chooses (like Beorning class from LoTRO). While in WW form you have access only to WW abilities (upsides: faster, very heavy hitting. Downsides: melee only, reduced heal/tanking capabilities)
Potentially also: the ability to slot different sets for human/WW? But that seems open to abuse (e.g. super tanky sets in human, then glass cannon WW - which would allow best of both worlds with no downside).

For vamp: slot the ulti and you can slot vamp abilities alongside normal abilities (similar to slotting a weapon type).
As OP suggested, maybe skills should change depending on ulti morph chosen, with one making the vamp a "blood scion" type dark tank, with extra health-leeching abilities and general survivability (with some weakness though - say your incoming healing gains a stacking debuff the longer you are out of combat).
While the other morph is more a stealth/assassin, giving you bonuses to speed and damage, but reduced health and tankiness.

Trade-offs are important!

Silvains_Demon

Your comment to my post is interesting... but if you put on one ult and are forced into losing both bars' slot... it would destroy the players' want to use either skill line. Also, with the way vampires are, even when not using any ability, you get the buffs and debuffs. Nightblades can benefit from the 2nd passive which boosts weapon and spell damage by 300 if they sneak or go invisible, as an example. For Werewolves, it makes a little sense currently to not have their buffs and debuffs be the same way because their active abilities can only really be used while in Werewolf form. Though, I do agree they should allow the player the option to shorten the WW/Vampire skill line quest if they have done it before. I say shorten and not delete because the vampirism strain for ESO is unique in that for a Scion to be made, they need help from Lamae Bal. For the Werewolves, it's also unique that Hircine blesses the players with Lycanthropy. This makes both infections less about a "disease" and more of a "blessing", with the "disease" just a starting point.

Edit: Which thinking about it, having Lycanthropy given to the player straight from Hircine may explain away why system works as it does. Because If you slot the ult, you do get a Stamina Recovery buff if I remember correctly. But besides that, you get the bigger buffs and debuffs once transformed.

Your idea is interesting though! But I'm not sure how well it would work unless tested, unless I am reading it wrong.

Just to be clear, my idea would remove the current structure for the transformation for the vampire skill line. In other words and simply put, it would still work as normal in mortal form, but using the Scion form would work more like Werewolf Ult than the Necromancer Tank Ult, where you are now limited to the 5 skill line abilities. The transformation in itself would not grant more abilities or anything by itself, but because of that, I don't see a problem with sets you wore in mortal form being able to be procced in Scion form kinda like how Tormentor can be used with Werewolves to provide for an interesting taunt.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about No.

Silvains_Demon

Haha! Funny. Was testing a link so guess I accidentally summoned you instead. Thanks for the comment though.

Silvains_Demon

@Erickson9610 this was the idea I was talking about btw. Obviously would need testing and refinement if done 😅

chessalavakia_ESO

Some potential issues/areas where clarification might be helpful:

It might be difficult to make it clear to players how they transform in and out of the form if the ultimate doesn't transform but instead activates an ability.

Reducing the healing received would potentially damage the ability to self heal and make it harder to stay alive.

Does the bonus stats in Perfected drop from 10,000 to 5,000 for all stats or just health?

I would note that some players would likely enjoy feeling like they had a pet army with Perfected Scion and might be rather annoyed if their pets went away.

As it functions currently, the Vampire Ult is good for panic hitting to save yourself. If it needs to hit an enemy to work at all it will likely have whiffs that are frustrating. Further, it may not feel as impactful as people want in 1 vs 1 situations.

Mist Form lost the damage mitigation because it was messing up some interactions in high end content. I'm not sure they'd want to give that back.

The Vampire Lord Set would likely need adjusted.

You would likely need to significantly enhance the capabilities of the transformed form to make it viable and that would likely end up leaving it looking a ton like WW.

Silvains_Demon

@chessalavakia_ESO Hello there! Sorry for the delay, I just got home. And thank you for asking about clarifications/ pointing out the issues. I'll do my best to answer and clarify.

"It might be difficult to make it clear to players how they transform in and out of the form if the ultimate doesn't transform but instead activates an ability."

- Well, for this I got 2 solutions.
1. If this was greenlit and done (rework planned, built, and tested), the first thing to do would be to release patch notes and a release video. Give details on it over YouTube and other media.
2. The skill page. Using the current skill Simmering Frenzy as an example, the top has the basic rundown of how it works from the Casting Time, Target, Duration, and so on with the details towards the bottom. With the ability Overload from the Sorcerer's Storm Calling Skill line, it lacks such descriptions and is much more worded out. I would suggest highlight the Toggle-version of the ability at the top, with a description at the end for the Burst AoE + effects. For how to activate, using the PlayStation as an example, you can use a "Press L1+R1" and "Hold L1+R1". Would have to make it to where the player decides which is which in the settings in "Gameplay" around where "Quick Cast Ground Abilities" is located. For the best experience, it would be best to have the Burst AoE + effects be the "Press" option. It would be "wordy" in the Skill page but the player will read what they want specifically for details.

"Reducing the healing received would potentially damage the ability to self heal and make it harder to stay alive".

- I am going to assume you are talking about Blood Frenzy and it's morphs? I guess I may not have been clear enough. Sorry, I was a bit excited when I posted and it was around 5 pages long when I copied and pasted to a Google Doc on default settings. For this ability, I was meaning to replace the inability to be healed by sources excluded currently. The recommended Healing Reduction would not apply to anything that is still working normally. So the player, their pets, and companions can still heal as normal, but another player healing would only be able to give them a certain percentage (There would have to be testing done. I am not completely sure the percentage that would be appropriate).

"Does the bonus stats in Perfected drop from 10,000 to 5,000 for all stats or just health?"

- I don't think I mentioned Resources so thanks for catching that! I think with resources staying at 10K is fine. If the AoE Burst is too strong, it would make sense to reduce those too, but not as much as health. The reason being is that the Perfect Scion morph is supposed to be more DPS focused with the Burst AoE than the base and Swarming Scion versions.

"I would note that some players would likely enjoy feeling like they had a pet army with Perfected Scion and might be rather annoyed if their pets went away."

- Well, this is kinda tricky at this point. The reason being is that you could have numerous combat pets of the Permanent and Temporary types depending on the class selected and sets worn. It would be quite the number for one player to roam the map with 4 perm-pets (2 Bloodfiends, 2 summons) and at least 3 temp-pets if the player is familiar with how to proc them. Another issue is determining how the rework is set up. If it is similar to the Werewolf skill line, I think they would be unsummoned regardless. Plus the current versions of both summons does not allow the player to use summons on one bar and not the other without unsummoning them when they switch. If they want a "Pet Army", there are ways to do that with Sorcerer and temp-pet sets, but those builds do not work well for higher content.

"As it functions currently, the Vampire Ult is good for panic hitting to save yourself. If it needs to hit an enemy to work at all it will likely have whiffs that are frustrating. Further, it may not feel as impactful as people want in 1 vs 1 situations."

- Well, as it is in this rework idea, the base and Swarming Scion versions are supposed to be close-range in function. If it's supposed to also be a "Panic button", then it would make sense to lower the damage potential of the AoE Burst and implement a percentage heal. The ability would effectively be as follows: Plus 10K to max health, stamina, and magicka/ heals 50% (50% is a place holder) of max health (before 10k/5k increase), damage AoE (heals percentage done). It would allow for the ability to still function as a "Panic button". Also, the other details above as well that are not discussed here would need to be accounted for.

"Mist Form lost the damage mitigation because it was messing up some interactions in high end content. I'm not sure they'd want to give that back."

- Well, to my understanding there was a few reasons to change it. Was it because of PvP? Or the repeated exploitation of the ability in the Rockgrove trial? The change I have put above would help mitigate that because the damage reduction is connected to Vampire Stages. Another thing is looking at how it works and making a feature/debuff to turn off the damage negation. If a player enters a certain point, with a Heal/Block check mechanic, then the debuff shuts off Mistform's and it's morphs' function to negate damage. For how long? That depends on testing. If it is a problem that is unable to be solved because of the backend technical issues, then it would be best to I guess leave out the damage mitigation. It is sad if it was, but I understand that it would be more trouble than it would be worth.

"The Vampire Lord Set would likely need adjusted."

- That set in my opinion needs adjustments currently. It is interesting in theory, but it is old and needs a bit of refinement.

"You would likely need to significantly enhance the capabilities of the transformed form to make it viable and that would likely end up leaving it looking a ton like WW."

- Well, the form would be a toggleable, so abilities could be more effective for a time (maybe 20-30 seconds) after the AoE Burst is used while in Scion form, as the mortal form would not gain those benefits. If the player switches back while that buff is active, it turns off. That would then leave building up Ult. And ending up like WW? I don't see it being compared to WW as a completely bad thing since this is supposed to add a function to allow to be the Magicka-version of WW while retaining the dis/advantages that it currently has in a sense as well as other functions mentioned in the original post.

Thank you for putting a comment on my post, I hoped you had fun reading the post as I did answering your questions.

Silvains_Demon

@chessalavakia_ESO

You would likely need to significantly enhance the capabilities of the transformed form to make it viable and that would likely end up leaving it looking a ton like WW.

- Another thing to do would be to scrap some parts of the idea for the mechanic change for the recommended Blood Scion and it's morph Swarming Scion, keeping them similar to the Necromancer transformation Ult where the player is not forced into that "third" bar and forced to use Scion form abilities. But, while in Scion form, they gain access to those altered abilities and it works just as to how the rework suggested. That would allow for players that liked using other skills in the current Scion form to be able to, but reworks it into such a fashion that it gives the form something more because it is toggleable and multi-purpose.

Thinking about it, this whole combined discussion would allow for Werewolves to keep the mechanic to transform and rely on that "third bar" while Necromancer transformation Ult would be the "transform and keep your current set up" Ult, and the Vampire Ult would be the hybrid of the two depending on the morph you have chosen. (Thinking about this... I'll probably edit this in later. Leaving the current details but putting in the "updated" details as well.)

Aggrovious

One thing is for sure, the current vampires suck and you can't use them that well in PVE. Not to mention doing a trial like Rock Grove would be instant death. The rampage increase of abilities and low health also makes impossible to use in gameplay. Vampires need some sort of healing ability that kind of works like a bloodied build. You are a glass cannon low health, but you do a lot of damage and can sustain.

I think adding a new armor set in the game specifically designed for vampires could be beneficial. I love your idea of having blood thralls, but it would be cooler if I could turn green NPC's into such. This can also "bleed," over into a hopeful Necromancer rework .

Silvains_Demon

@Aggrovious I hear you there. And thanks for stopping by and dropping a comment!

I agree on the armor set need, but maybe instead of adding another set, the current "Vampire Lord" set could get some form of update. The gear set is interesting in theory but the way it is right now is a good deal outdated.

I think if they need to be lower health to deal more damage when it comes to vampires and DPS, that they need higher damage reduction. If you read the rework idea for Undeath I had, it would make the damage reduction range go from 100% - 30% instead of the current 100% - 0% for how the damage reduction would work for scaling. Having the Scion forms be more specific towards a build type would work better as well. Even the changes I recommended to Blood Frenzy and it's morphs would help with survivability in PvE content since you atleast can take healing from other players, be it at a reduced percentage, than nothing at all.

And I do agree it would be awesome to turn NPCs into thralls, but I don't know if that is possible on the "back-end" (the "1s and 0s" part we don't see) of the game, so that's why in the recommendation, I paid homage to the past idea with having two Bloodfiends instead with an explosion mechanic.

chessalavakia_ESO

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

@chessalavakia_ESO

You would likely need to significantly enhance the capabilities of the transformed form to make it viable and that would likely end up leaving it looking a ton like WW.

- Another thing to do would be to scrap some parts of the idea for the mechanic change for the recommended Blood Scion and it's morph Swarming Scion, keeping them similar to the Necromancer transformation Ult where the player is not forced into that "third" bar and forced to use Scion form abilities. But, while in Scion form, they gain access to those altered abilities and it works just as to how the rework suggested. That would allow for players that liked using other skills in the current Scion form to be able to, but reworks it into such a fashion that it gives the form something more because it is toggleable and multi-purpose.

Thinking about it, this whole combined discussion would allow for Werewolves to keep the mechanic to transform and rely on that "third bar" while Necromancer transformation Ult would be the "transform and keep your current set up" Ult, and the Vampire Ult would be the hybrid of the two depending on the morph you have chosen. (Thinking about this... I'll probably edit this in later. Leaving the current details but putting in the "updated" details as well.)

Yeah, one of the downsides to being locked to a bar is that if your buffs end you can't rebuff if they aren't available in the bar form.

WW gets around this in part by having several of the buffs as passive/for having abilities slotted.

But, if you aren't locked in you can just swap bars rebuff then swap back.

This discussion does kind of remind me of Equinox from Warframe which had it's abilities shift based on your form choice https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Equinox#Abilities

Silvains_Demon

@chessalavakia_ESO

Yeah, one of the downsides to being locked to a bar is that if your buffs end you can't rebuff if they aren't available in the bar form.

WW gets around this in part by having several of the buffs as passive/for having abilities slotted.

But, if you aren't locked in you can just swap bars rebuff then swap back.

This discussion does kind of remind me of Equinox from Warframe which had it's abilities shift based on your form choice https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Equinox#Abilities

I see what you mean. For Blood Scion and Swarming Scion, all the form would be doing is giving access to alternate vampiric abilities with the newer setup (I'll be updating that when I am not as tired as I am now lol). They still have access to both bars and their non-vampiric abilities. As for Perfect Scion, it would need some buffs to allow for it to be used for longer times. Heck, under this newer idea, it could get a gear set all of it's own to buff it (maybe I will think on it). I have been thinking of a rework for Werewolves. Not as expansive as this, but something similar. Though, their form is powerful because it is timed. I was thinking for the rework of also making it toggle with the current mechanic being fused into a Howl-type ult to trigger it's combat related buffs. If they keep the "Feed" bar full, they keep the buffs. If it runs out, they gain a "Starved" condition that removes the combat buffs (Savage Strength for instance would be turned off). When you trigger the ult, the Feed bar is filled up and the buffs are back. If the Feed bar is still filled while the Ult is able to be activated, then I guess you got more time to WW around while buffed lol!

Also, looking at the Werewolf abilities, only 2 Active and the Ult have passives linked to them. I guess for the Perfect Scion, I would have to bake the Buffs into the Passives themselves because of the nature of the Active abilities. I'll have to look into it. More than likely, the buff would be in the form of the altered Passives. It is just thinking about what would be appropriate for it and all. Plus looking into WW and seeing what do they lose when a player transforms into a WW besides access to both their bars (I checked and their is a 3rd bar), and their non-WW abilities during the time of the transformation. I know for the Perfect Scion above, I was thinking of adding a damage buff for the Ult use. I'll have to think on this as I may have said.

Thank you for replying back. It is insightful. And yeah, the Blood/Swarming Scion reminds me a bit of Warframe as well since you mentioned it lol!

Silvains_Demon

@chessalavakia_ESO

There, I updated it. How does that look? I made changes to the Blood Scion (Base Ult), Perfect Scion, Dark Stalker, and Strike from Shadows.

Pretty much, here (though, I will be adding some more damage buffs after looking at WW and creating the rework idea there):

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

Vampire Rework Idea

Ultimate Ability:

Blood Scion (Base Ult)

- I like how they have added in the current feature of this. Going from the original Ult of having just a short-lived 5 - 7 second swarm of bats to a transformation Ult was a great decision, but sadly, some people are a little irked with it. I propose instead, making this into a toggleable, and making it to where it would use the actual claws and vampiric abilities you unlock, effectively making it a CQC-type of form (but modified. I'll go into detail later). Effectively, think of the werewolf Ult in that if you use the Ult, you are limited to the werewolf attacks and abilities, but no timer and at any time (think "TES V:Skyrim" vampire lord form for the reference). The Ult itself will not be the transformation, but an AoE effect. This AoE is just a burst AoE. Instead of the player just healing up to full, they push out damage at a range and suck in the health. In effect, they heal for a percentage of the damage done. Now, I am not saying the percentage should be lower than 50%. It is an Ult so it should heal the player enough to be able to get back up to at least 90% HP if they hit anyone(I think 2 - 3 people should suffice) +10k health as they have that 10k health increase. Now, obviously this can be rearranged with this mechanic depending on the idea of "is this ability meant to be defensive, or offensive?". I do think that an AoE burst damage is pretty neat for mechanic for that the transformation is not the actual Ult, but it is toggleable. The actual Ult (Burst AoE) should be able to happen in either mortal or Scion forms. The ability to see enemies through walls would last for 20 seconds for both forms (knowledge is power. Knowing an enemies position is pretty cool).

- Updated info: The first strikethrough is because this will be updated instead to stay as the current model. When I say "model", I mean that it stays similar to the way that the Necromancer transformation Ult works instead of like WW. It would still be toggleable though since Active abilities below do have different effects based on either Mortal or Scion form. The second strikethrough is because as discussed in the comments below, it would be best for the AoE Burst to be able to still act as a panic button. So from below, it worked as such when activating the AoE Burst: Plus 10K to max health, stamina, and magicka/ heals 50% (50% is a place holder) of max health (before 10k increase), damage AoE (heals percentage done). Any effects not talked about should still be included (EX: healing for a percentage of any damage down) as they are currently with the current time limits.



Perfect Scion (Morph)

- I think this looks interesting when it first came out... but sadly unless someone plans on RPing for the visual affects, not many people use this. For this morph, I would turn it into the long-range variant of the two transformations for the morphs. It would effectively be a more evolved version of the Vampire Lords themselves. Smaller, slimmer, armored even, but perfected. The light and heavy are about throwing out dark-tinged blood spears while the player hovers off the ground (you have lichs that float, so making a player model of that shouldn't be hard, right?). It is a perfected vampire lord form, so wings would be nice to stay true to the vampire lord form. If there is a question of a speed increase, I would have to say that should be not the case with no additions. As to my knowledge, there was a planned ability to allow players to turn a limited category of NPCs into thralls. To pay homage to that, while the player is in this form, they have access to 2 Bloodfiends, but if the player has any current class related combat pets, they (the class combat pets) are unsummoned (don't need small armies running around). For the Ult, I think it would be best to keep the current version + the recommend burst AoE (though, for this form, the Burst AoE would deal more damage than heal and the Health increase would only be 5k. Resource increase would stay at 10k). For the mortal form, this effect (Vampire Stage 5) would last for an extended period of about 30 - 40 seconds. This gives the player in mortal form a good but brief period of space to fight without having to worry about the disadvantages of vampirism. For the Scion form, this would only last 25 - 35 seconds with a twist, both Bloodfiends explode causing damage to those around them. They auto resummon after around 20 seconds or when half the ult cost is built back up unless killed by something besides the Ult, in that case, 5 - 8 seconds to respawn. As for the ability to see enemies through walls, as like previously stated, if the Ult is used, 20 second duration.

- Updated Info: So, talking with someone below, if restricted to a single bar like the WW, then the morph here would need a buff like the WW. The first thing is that the Perfect Scion form itself, without the AoE Burst-related buffing, should have a fixed Vampiric Stage. I believe the Perfect Scion form should have the advantages of Vampire Stage 4, but the disadvantages of Vampire Stage 2 (as said, when unbuffed by the AoE Burst). I think this is a good starter for the buff for this form. As for any other buffs, it would be best to put at least 2 buffs in the passives.


Dark Stalker

- No changes. It makes sense that vampires would be stealthy outright.

- Updated Info: For the Perfect Scion, this would give the stealth button (analog for controller) a unique function. This would allow for the Perfect Scion to become a mist low to the ground, reducing your radius of being detected by one meter. For combat, it becomes an instant teleport. This teleport consumes 33% of the player's total stamina and propels the player up to 12 meters (the Sorcerer skill Bolt Escape goes up to 15 meters, and costs around 3289 or so magicka when at rank 4 and morphed. This is to prevent the ability from becoming something that anyone can abuse and it won't beat a class-related skill). The use of this would proc the Strike from Shadows damage buff (+300 damage for 12 seconds).

Strike from Shadows (Stage 2 or higher)

- No changes. It makes sense for them to be here as a damage buff. 6 seconds is a good amount of time for +300 damage increase.

-Updated Info: For the Perfect Scion, this would give the form an added damage buff of 18% to all damage dished out. I think this is fair as a damage buff, as it shouldn't be too big when compared to other buffs, and like it's counterpart, the WW. Also, the +300 damage from this the base Strike from Shadows Passive gains an added upgrade from 6 seconds to 12 seconds.


Undeath (Stage 4)

- Undeath has been one of the most controversial passives from what I can tell. It is a fairly decent passive that currently allows for a 15% reduction in the damage taken, but it is based on your missing health. If anything, this skill is hard to shape into fairness. So for my own opinion, I would look above at the things I have done and make this change: Reduce damage taken by 15%, with the range of health not being from 100% to 0%, but from 100% to 30%. There are other takes, but I think this is rather fair. In a game like this, if you make a build right and master it, I have seen tanks be able to stay alive for minutes in PvP in a 1v8+ and they were not a vampire. I don't think this proposed change would be game breaking, but as this is such a controversial passive, this is just my take on it.

Note for Undeath: I will be honest, I was thinking of putting a buff here for Major Resolve, but I think that would be too much for permanent defensive buffs plus it conflicts with the potential morph of Sated Frenzy here. So, I went with the added Perfect Scion buff with Dark Stalker.

chessalavakia_ESO

Re: Dark Stalker updated Information

You might run into the issue that the combat form for Perfect Scion is a bit redundant when the player has Mist Form slotted.

I'm unsure how much the 1 m detection change would matter.

You might also hit the issue that the combat form kind of clashes with Drain Vigor. Drain Vigor restores Stamina based on the amount missing which favors having a large pool. Losing 1/3rd of your Stamina on the other hand favors having a small pool with more focus on regen. One of the reasons I don't use my Wrathsun char much is that losing a significant % of my resource pool really doesn't feel great when you've got a big pool.

ESO still suffers from in combat bugs so players at times will be getting the combat version even out of combat.

Silvains_Demon

You might run into the issue that the combat form for Perfect Scion is a bit redundant when the player has Mist Form slotted.

Oh? I'll have to look into that. I have been thinking of editting the first post of the idea so it's less clunky. Kinda like the Werewolf rework I did. Also, wanted to compare the two and give it the supporting buffs for a one bar setup and then rework some things to give it a vampiric twist.

I'm unsure how much the 1 m detection change would matter.

Well, I'll have to look into a different thing possibly. I put that there because there are a few different things that buff stealth radiuses and didn't want to break it since I don't currently know the starting stealth radius before it gets messed with by sets, racial bonuses, and champion points. I've been thinking of other buffs to do but some things are a little much. Maybe I'll just take this part out so it's only an animation mentioned, but no actual buff for the idea.

You might also hit the issue that the combat form kind of clashes with Drain Vigor. Drain Vigor restores Stamina based on the amount missing which favors having a large pool. Losing 1/3rd of your Stamina on the other hand favors having a small pool with more focus on regen. One of the reasons I don't use my Wrathsun char much is that losing a significant % of my resource pool really doesn't feel great when you've got a big pool.

Oh so you're meaning that it conflicts with the teleport? Well, I was focusing on trying not to be too strong, but I see the point. Maybe best to either have Drain Vigor have a different function then if you are using Perfect Scion then. I like to think Perfect Scion is more Magicka focused, so the Stamina cost is the reason it currently was proposed. Also, been thinking about refocusing the Resource buff so if using Perfect Scion (and transformed), the buff would focus more on buffing Max Magicka. And if transformed, it buffs Max Magicka as well so the player has more in reserve (when the player transforms as a WW, they get a 30% Max Stamina increase. I was thinking of porting that over but for Max Magickal).

ESO still suffers from in combat bugs so players at times will be getting the combat version even out of combat.

Mind explaining more into this? I do know ESO breaks even when current bugs are patched out because of the patches. It's not something to easily fix, especially with a game so large.

chessalavakia_ESO

In Cyrodiil PvP you can pretty regularly hit instances where you end up registering as being in combat minutes after the engagement ends.

It's a bit less common in smaller scale PvP types but it does occasionally happen. It happens in PvE at times when a mob you are fighting summons another npc to fight. For example, Fetcherfly Nest will occasionally cause it to occur in PvE.

I just put it in to note that players at times might not get the result of hitting crouch that they expect.

Silvains_Demon

I see! I get what you mean now. Personally I hate that as well. There are times as even halfway across the map, an NPC will chase after me sometimes to attack me just to take damage from me before it gets the chance and resets, or it does hit me and then it resets like it remembered it was far from home. I guess what you're talking about is something similar to that.

And yeah, I can see why such a thing would make any stealth-based action suck... but this also effects other things such as trying to get on your Mount or other non-combat activities... so I'm not too worried as a mechanic thing (since it is a game-side issue that effects multiple things). I think I'll just keep the animation idea. It's just a ground-level mist, around the height of a Skeever. But no other added benefit. Also, with the revision, I'll be going over more details for Perfect Scion since I know more now than before (going over Light and Heavy Attacks for instance). Doing that rework idea for Werewolves really was an eye opener.

Silvains_Demon

Version 2.0 is now up above in the 1st post of this Discussion (FYI, I edit it)

Been playing as a Werewolf as of late and noticed some positives and negatives when comparing current WW with this rework. I'll make a "Version 2.1" down the line.