West Weald - beautiful but not lore

o_Primate_o

West Weald itself is quite beautiful, but the shards and Lucent Citadel and some delves are so much a departure from lore that I find WWeald is difficult to play. I get that some zones have stretched what can be considered ES lore, but this is too much. I can't wrap my head around it.

ArchMikem

It's as much a departure as it is an introduction, to Ithelia, the forgotten Prince.

LunaFlora

it is simply new lore

Benzux

Mirror crystals from a Daedric realm literally called Mirrormoor found on Nirn during a literal ongoing Daedric invasion is too lore-breaking? It's not even like the crystalline stuff is nothing we've seen before, Jyggalag and his Knights of Order from the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion had a similar vibe going on,

DenverRalphy

It's not a departure from lore. It's a story about what was, and will be again, Forgotten Lore.

Bradyfjord

Please remember that most 'lore' in the elder scrolls games is told in unreliable narrator. Even our actions in ESO are probably going to be erased with the arrival of Talos and all the shenanigans he is going to be up to.

TaSheen

Actually, it's an addition to the lore, because Bethesda not only agreed to Ithelia, they agreed to the way ZOS envisioned not only Ithelia, but West Weald.

This game is not a static single player title; it's a living breathing entity. And thank the divines for that.

Mascen

TaSheen wrote: »

Actually, it's an addition to the lore, because Bethesda not only agreed to Ithelia, they agreed to the way ZOS envisioned not only Ithelia, but West Weald.

This game is not a static single player title; it's a living breathing entity. And thank the divines for that.

Its not as much an addition as it is because remember, the event of the chapter are wiped from everyones memory by Hermaeus Mora at the finale so the secret of Ithelia technichally dies with us.

That being said I do get where OP is coming from to an extent. ZOS couldve fleshed out more Skingrad lore such as Rislav the Righteous given the effort made building that statue outside the city where the Battlegrounds camp is located.

Or at the very least fleshing out the individual lore for the Ayleid sites they did include,

kaushad

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Please remember that most 'lore' in the elder scrolls games is told in unreliable narrator. Even our actions in ESO are probably going to be erased with the arrival of Talos and all the shenanigans he is going to be up to.

It only works that way when it's narrated, and even then the reliability of sources varies. The player character witnessed Ithelia and Mirrormoor first hand.

TaSheen

I tend to feel that the "player character" is as much an "unreliable narrator" as anyone else....

TheMajority

its new lore stories don't have to exist in a vaccume or always go in a circle of the same old stuff the writers of a story are allowed to add things

kaushad

TaSheen wrote: »

I tend to feel that the "player character" is as much an "unreliable narrator" as anyone else....

But they aren't narrating. We're looking through their eyes and over their head. It's not like the game starts with the Vestige talking about their adventure to their grandchildren or someone in 2E616.

AnduinTryggva

o_Primate_o wrote: »

West Weald itself is quite beautiful, but the shards and Lucent Citadel and some delves are so much a departure from lore that I find WWeald is difficult to play. I get that some zones have stretched what can be considered ES lore, but this is too much. I can't wrap my head around it.

Have you played the zone story? Ideally also the Necrom story?

It is not lore but it is clear from the story why it is not lore and as such it really is part of the lore.

TaSheen

kaushad wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I tend to feel that the "player character" is as much an "unreliable narrator" as anyone else....

But they aren't narrating. We're looking through their eyes and over their head. It's not like the game starts with the Vestige talking about their adventure to their grandchildren or someone in 2E616.

But many of my characters are (in my head canon and "mental background RP") doing just that. So yes - and I realize my POV is singular - they are those "unreliable narrators"....

TybaltKaine

For the love of Arkay use spoiler tags.

StarOfElyon

o_Primate_o wrote: »

West Weald itself is quite beautiful, but the shards and Lucent Citadel and some delves are so much a departure from lore that I find WWeald is difficult to play. I get that some zones have stretched what can be considered ES lore, but this is too much. I can't wrap my head around it.

Where is this lore found that got you all bothered?

Elsonso

kaushad wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Please remember that most 'lore' in the elder scrolls games is told in unreliable narrator. Even our actions in ESO are probably going to be erased with the arrival of Talos and all the shenanigans he is going to be up to.

It only works that way when it's narrated, and even then the reliability of sources varies. The player character witnessed Ithelia and Mirrormoor first hand.

Yes, they did, but as soon as they put it into writing, or tell someone, they become part of the unreliable narration. Unreliable narration does not mean "wrong", it means that it can't be trusted to be accurate. In 800 years, how does anyone know what is accurate and what is someone's imaginary tale?

Besides, Ithelia is forbidden knowledge, and you can bet that Mora is actively erasing her from any mention by a rogue Fate's Chosen. We can assume he is even intercepting speculation about all the crystal garbage littering the province.

kaushad

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes, they did, but as soon as they put it into writing, or tell someone, they become part of the unreliable narration. Unreliable narration does not mean "wrong", it means that it can't be trusted to be accurate. In 800 years, how does anyone know what is accurate and what is someone's imaginary tale?

That's right. But most of the game isn't reading an in-universe book written 800 years after the fact. A book in which Cinnabar of Taneth explains tower theory is a medium of unreliable narration. That dragons attacked Elsweyr isn't. This isn't Elder Scrolls Legends, in which the plot is introduced by a Moth Priest telling a story around a campfire.

Benzux

kaushad wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes, they did, but as soon as they put it into writing, or tell someone, they become part of the unreliable narration. Unreliable narration does not mean "wrong", it means that it can't be trusted to be accurate. In 800 years, how does anyone know what is accurate and what is someone's imaginary tale?

That's right. But most of the game isn't reading an in-universe book written 800 years after the fact. A book in which Cinnabar of Taneth explains tower theory is a medium of unreliable narration. That dragons attacked Elsweyr isn't. This isn't Elder Scrolls Legends, in which the plot is introduced by a Moth Priest telling a story around a campfire.

Ithelia and Mirrormoor is not exactly about unreliable narration (or, depending on how you see or define it, it could in fact be the most unreliable narration) in the first place, though.

As was stated in this thread and as we know, Mora erases all memory of her from everyone but himself and The Vestige. There is no-one to do the narrating in the first place. It doesn't matter if The Vestige remembers, at most they'll be deemed a madman. And as for her realm, as Mora says, it will simply become "yet another forgotten Plane of Oblivion among thousands"

As for the dragons in Elsweyr, 800 years is a very long time. To put it into real-life perspective, 800 years ago Genghis Khan was around and did his thing, the church was in full swing of going on crusades, and the Magna Carta was signed. To modern Khajiit, stuff happening in the chaos of the Second Era (of which we know little to no records remain in the future) might as well be ancient history.

barney2525

It's fine.

I would not say " beautiful " The only parts not covered by a harsh yellow are black scorched earth.

It's different and it's well detailed.

But that's about it.

IMHO

Daemonai

Do you know what lore is, mate? It ain't objective history/fact, lol. It's all literally made up and is oftentimes revised/retconned when it suits the needs of the storyteller. I wouldn't put too much stock into it, tbh.

Rowjoh

There are no boundaries when it come to fiction.

Expansion, and evolution are integral to every journey.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

o_Primate_o wrote: »

West Weald itself is quite beautiful, but the shards and Lucent Citadel and some delves are so much a departure from lore that I find WWeald is difficult to play. I get that some zones have stretched what can be considered ES lore, but this is too much. I can't wrap my head around it.

Lucent Citadel is in Fargrave, the crystals in the delves etc. are probably from the area being infused with chaotic creatia as explained by Gabrielle Benele:

It appears to me that in those locations the very substance of Nirn is being infused with chaotic creatia, which then responds to the will of the invading Daedric Prince, adopting the 'template,' as it were, of matter from the intruding realm—in this case, Coldharbour. Though we see this as a collateral side-effect in the vicinity of Oblivion portals, it could be deliberately invoked even at a considerable range by spell-casting cultists

The trees’ appearance are explained in the main story of course, and their disappearance by ES:Oblivion is because of Talos (Heimskr quoting this text):

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

So what precisely are you finding lore-breaking?

spartaxoxo

ESO is canon

Varana

Exactly that.

It's in a TES game, the player can see it on screen. That's the highest degree of reliability that you can get in the TES world. As such, it is official lore by definition.

Even that is not completely reliable (most obvious: due to technology moving forward, and stylistic choices), but it is the best you will get.

Also, the shards and Lucent Citadel are Daedric, the citadel is literally in Oblivion. I'm not sure what's supposed to be "lore-breaking" about that.

colossalvoids

Not real sure it's about being lore breaking (when it's just newly created lore) or just about lore being bad.

SeaGtGruff

With regard to lore that’s witnessed by the player’s character— which is possibly the most concrete type of lore, given that it is experienced firsthand as opposed to being heard about secondhand or read about in someone’s written account with no way for our character to verify it— it should be noted that all of our characters can create different versions of lore as determined by the choices they make and even the times (i.e., in-game dates) when they do the various quests and the order in which they do those quests.

And as for the lore that’s embodied in written accounts or in any verbal accounts which our character hears during conversations with NPCs, there might be accounts which differ from each other, or conflicting explanations of things, etc.

In short, not only does the lore change and evolve from one game to the next within the franchise, but it changes and evolves within any given game each time a player creates a new character and plays through the game.

And this is necessarily true in any RPG, no matter how tightly-scripted its storyline might be. Each character’s experience of the story is unique and potentially quite different than some other character’s experience.

o_Primate_o

Thanks all. New lore/cannon. Ok. Maybe I'm hung up on the graphics or something and Lucent Citadel gives Sanctum Ophelia trial competition on my least favorite trials to play. I'll just have to get over it and finish zone story.

Amottica

LunaFlora wrote: »

it is simply new lore

I was going to say similar. Zenimax owns the lore. They own the cannon. They are permitted to take artistic liberties.

w002exp

While the lore is new, it fits with TES canon quite well. Consider for a moment that Ithelia is the Prince of fates, non linear time and...... Prisoners...... Interesting. Every player character since Arena had started the game a prisoner. In most of these sequences, time and events as a prisoner are linear, as you must play the tutorial. However once freedom is gained, the player has literally infinite choices before them, a true open world of infinite fates. Ithelia literally canonizes every player character by opening up a metaverse where each and every iteration of the Dragon Born, or the Hero Of Kvatch, was and is a true representation of events that happened, despite the fact that no two players play the same. If you look at the more metaphysical concepts in TES lore like the concept of CHIM, Ithelia is on the cusp of those reasonings with explanation for how it occurs.

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

it is simply new lore

I was going to say similar. Zenimax owns the lore. They own the cannon. They are permitted to take artistic liberties.

I think Bethesda Game Studios is the caretaker of the Elder Scrolls lore. ZOS is permitted to take artistic liberties if BGS agrees with the direction. That said, seems that lore is not something to stand in the way. It is more a thing that guides the way to the desired outcome.