ZOS Violated the Holy Trinity, and how to fix it

ADawg

The MMO Holy Trinity of DPS/HEALS/TANK has been violated.

I think the fundamental issue is this: Healing scaling off of damage modifiers. This has to be fixed!

Healing power should only come from healing modifiers, with crit rolls further boosting those numbers. In other words, stacking damage to the moon should NOT increase your healing power. This gives high DPS builds higher healing and thus violates the HOLY TRINITY


The MMO GODS are pissed. The trinity has been desecrated!

Since gear is so important in this game, the solution is simple. Force HEALERS to actually slot HEALING sets that makes them better healers without also making them killing machines. Tanks need to slot actual DEFENSIVE sets and not also enjoying insane KILLING POWER. DPS players need to choose to slot DPS sets to do more damage without also enjoying ROFL jump around all day in the field cant kill me TEE HEE defenses for free

Please reconcile with the MMO GODS and restore balance in the force. The trinity MUST be restored for there to be order in Tamriel!

xylena_lazarow

ADawg wrote: »

The MMO Holy Trinity of DPS/HEALS/TANK has been violated.

Good, it went out of style in the 00s.

Ostonoha

As much as I may agree that healing being tied to damage was always a dumb idea. It’s the same thing with the people that complain about people only waiting for their ult to go offensive. And turtling until it’s ready. This has been the game for its entire existence. It’s been 10 years. This is the combat system. This is the game. I feel at this point you either like it or you don’t and move on. None of this is new.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ADawg wrote: »

The MMO Holy Trinity of DPS/HEALS/TANK has been violated.

Good, it went out of style in the 00s.

I agree. Holy Trinity is not a rule everyone likes and wants and should have to follow especially in the online spinoff of a single player RPG series which 6th installment is delayed for(?) this online spinoff recruiting many of main series single players.

Skyrim was a single player game without holy trinity and therefore holy trinity will find less agreement in the playerbase of an MMORPG heavily recruiting skyrim players than in the sequel MMORPG of an MMORPG series or independent MMORPG.

ZOS enforced Holy Trinity in dungeons and trials and enabled it in other content but did not enforce it there and after 10 years this should not change.

New World did not even call itself MMORPG and advertised with absence of strength advantage of high level players in PvP and still MMORPG players enforced this MMORPG rule on them, taking away a reason why most other players joined and driving away most of them.

There are enaugh MMORPGs following MMORPG rules, we do not need to equalize every game that has good MMORPG aspects without the bad/questionable ones to also have the other ones.
If you want an MMORPG following all rules why not choose one that does?

katorga

Simple, follow proc set "rules".

Heals scale from max mag/stam, only.

Damage scales from max wep/spell damage only.

Defensive skills scale from max health, only: damage shields, block cost/percentage, dodge roll cost

If you did that....Hardened Ward would not have been a problem, or needed any adjustments at all. Want a big shield, stack health, but that kills your damage and healing. Want healing stack max mag, but that kills your damage and defense. Players would organically find a middle way or intentionally build into one of the trinity roles.

VinnyGambini

I think you are a bit simplyfying here. You forgot about 1 stat which is penetration. It has the biggest influence on dmg, yet no influence on heals. So as you can see dmg is not 100% tied to heals.

But yea, I think that changing the scaling a bit may be welcome for example heals scale with 200% max resource + 50% max spell dmg. Currently there is no piont investing in max resource.

Iriidius

katorga wrote: »

Simple, follow proc set "rules".

Heals scale from max mag/stam, only.

Damage scales from max wep/spell damage only.

Defensive skills scale from max health, only: damage shields, block cost/percentage, dodge roll cost

If you did that....Hardened Ward would not have been a problem, or needed any adjustments at all. Want a big shield, stack health, but that kills your damage and healing. Want healing stack max mag, but that kills your damage and defense. Players would organically find a middle way or intentionally build into one of the trinity roles.

All proc set scaling did was making proc sets not viable for players not stacking the stat they scale with while overperforming proc sets were directly nerfed.
Now nobody uses mag/stam stacking proc sets anymore because nobody except magsorc stacks magicka while many players stack 45k hp and 7k weapon dmg anyway and can use tank and dmg proc sets.
Players asking for proc sets scaling with dmg stats to prevent tanks with proc dmg probably did not want to force players to run 50k hp to use tank procset.

Hardened Ward would still be problem, there are already players using it with 50k hp 7k wpn dmg and stacking magicka is also already killing your dmg as it only gives half as much as stacking wpndmg.

Majority of players just dont want to build into trinity roles and the ones that want to can already do that.
because many players come from single player games without holy trinity and still play solo they are not used to holy trinity and have noone to do the other roles and in mainquestline you have to play solo doing all 3 roles anyway.

xylena_lazarow

Ostonoha wrote: »

people only waiting for their ult to go offensive

It's less the strat itself and more that it's historically often been the only strat. Optimized defense and sustain usually far outpaces optimized offense, so you can't proactively win, you can only reactively play the exact same strat, ending up literally spending most of the match waiting and hoping your opponent blinks first (aka tank meta). The longtime dominance of stall and attrition has really kneecapped the popularity of playing competitive, from dueling to ball groups.

And then every time counterplay to stall pops up, like bleed pressure builds, or Azureblight, the devs nerf it into the ground, as if they want attrition to be the only viable strat, not even allowed to oppose it. Play how we tell you to.

Stafford197

The idea of a Holy trinity for roles NEVER should have existed in this game.

ESO should have been an Elder Scrolls game with MMO features.…. not a generic MMO with an Elder Scrolls skin like it currently is. If I want to play a generic MMO, there are better games out there.

propertyOfUndefined

Remember when RPGs let you be creative with your playstyle instead of shoehorning you into one of three cookie-cutter roles? Yeah... I despised the 'holy trinity' when it first became a thing and I'm still not a fan.

ADawg

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Remember when RPGs let you be creative with your playstyle instead of shoehorning you into one of three cookie-cutter roles? Yeah... I despised the 'holy trinity' when it first became a thing and I'm still not a fan.

And that is why 1 player can face tank 20 in an open field, turn around and wipe them!

And we wonder why new players don't stick around for PVP

Iriidius

ADawg wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Remember when RPGs let you be creative with your playstyle instead of shoehorning you into one of three cookie-cutter roles? Yeah... I despised the 'holy trinity' when it first became a thing and I'm still not a fan.

And that is why 1 player can face tank 20 in an open field, turn around and wipe them!

And we wonder why new players don't stick around for PVP

No player can face tank 20 in in an open field, turn around and wipe them!
If at all Only a full tank can face tank 20 players in an open field, usually it will be less as 20 will also kill him and the full tank has no dmg and cant kill anyone.
An 1vXer needs to run around tree/rock/tower to survive maybe 5 players before wiping them and only if they are much worse than him.
New players often come from Skyrim that has no holy trinity and will not stick around with holy trinity either especially as they have too few friends to form a group covering holy trinity roles.
But you revealed that holy trinity fans want enforce holy trinity at least particularly to remove solo players that have to cover all 3 roles by themselves (because nobody else does for them) which is what you want to make impossible.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

But you revealed that holy trinity fans want enforce holy trinity at least particularly to remove solo players that have to cover all 3 roles by themselves (because nobody else does for them) which is what you want to make impossible.

It wouldn't just kill solo play, it'd also make PvP pugging impossible because you wouldn't have the right balance of roles. If you think ball groups are a problem now... well this would make them literally the only viable playstyle.

Iriidius

ADawg wrote: »

The MMO Holy Trinity of DPS/HEALS/TANK has been violated.

I think the fundamental issue is this: Healing scaling off of damage modifiers. This has to be fixed!

Healing power should only come from healing modifiers, with crit rolls further boosting those numbers. In other words, stacking damage to the moon should NOT increase your healing power. This gives high DPS builds higher healing and thus violates the HOLY TRINITY


The MMO GODS are pissed. The trinity has been desecrated!

Since gear is so important in this game, the solution is simple. Force HEALERS to actually slot HEALING sets that makes them better healers without also making them killing machines. Tanks need to slot actual DEFENSIVE sets and not also enjoying insane KILLING POWER. DPS players need to choose to slot DPS sets to do more damage without also enjoying ROFL jump around all day in the field cant kill me TEE HEE defenses for free

Please reconcile with the MMO GODS and restore balance in the force. The trinity MUST be restored for there to be order in Tamriel!

ZoS cant reconcile with the MMO GODS and restore holy trinity, balance in the force and order in tamriel as it did never conciled/exist since the game was released 10 years ago, it can only concile now but why should they if they could violate the holy trinity for all of TESOs 10 year existance without consequence and recruit players that want exactly that? Because some MMORPGers that could also play another MMORPG want that?
Healers do not need healing sets and rather use group buff sets even when beeing pure healers because they already drastically increase healing and survivability of dds/trinityviolaters so much that more healing is not needed. Healers are already very effektive in a group having also dds, best example of that beeing a ballgroup.

Iriidius

ADawg wrote: »

Healing power should only come from healing modifiers, with crit rolls further boosting those numbers.

Having constant healing like surge/dark deal/living dark increased only by healing modifiers(like vitality or mending) for all healing skills would at least give everyone decent healing rather than only healers (like when scaling with other stats like the healing sets), but why is it ok for heals to crit when crit is the most important dmg stat but not to scale with weapon dmg?
There are also still dmg modifiers (berserk, brittle essensse thief, vulnerability) and penetration not affecting healing helping only dds and healing modifiers for healers and dmg reduction modifiers for tanks so there is partial trinity.

Iriidius

Asking for holy trinity is asking to remove solo players forcing them to leave the game.
1vXer/Solo players do not get adventages for beeing Solo, they just are better players using stronger Builds and LoS than the players they 1vX.

Asking for holy trinity is asking to make ballgroups even stronger and the only playstile.
Why is it not OK for a solo player to win against 3-5 worse players but OK for a ballgroup to win against 36-60 players that are not even necessarely worse but only not organised as a ballgroup.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

But you revealed that holy trinity fans want enforce holy trinity at least particularly to remove solo players that have to cover all 3 roles by themselves (because nobody else does for them) which is what you want to make impossible.

It wouldn't just kill solo play, it'd also make PvP pugging impossible because you wouldn't have the right balance of roles. If you think ball groups are a problem now... well this would make them literally the only viable playstyle.

Exactly, even in a PuG you do not have right balance of roles.

Asking for holy trinity is also asking to remove non premade groups like smallscales, PuGs, open guild raids and groups of friends.

edward_frigidhands

ADawg wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Remember when RPGs let you be creative with your playstyle instead of shoehorning you into one of three cookie-cutter roles? Yeah... I despised the 'holy trinity' when it first became a thing and I'm still not a fan.

And that is why 1 player can face tank 20 in an open field, turn around and wipe them!

And we wonder why new players don't stick around for PVP

This is not happening or possible in the game.

On topic though, it would be a good idea to make people make choices about damage, healing, mobility and tanking based on how many points they have put in to Health, Magicka and Stamina.

Propper role selection in the talents and skills tree would be a bad idea that doesn't belong in a game with this level of customization.

LukosCreyden

Forcing the holy trinity and disempowering solo players would completely kill the game.