Ghostly Embrace - More proof that ZOS doesn't play Necro

Aldoss

I'm spinning this off from the combat and abilities thread where I wrote this:

Ghostly Embrace feedback:

"The second area now applies a Frost Damage over time effect for 5 seconds, similar to Burning Talons or Acrid Spray, rather than Immobilizing enemies."

This is another perfect example of how spreadsheet balancing does not work.

Burning talons does not need to be aimed and fires instantly in its 6m radius around the caster. Acid spray, does need to be aimed, but can reach significantly more targets, given the longer range, fires instantly, and gives the caster the benefit of range.

Ghostly embrace gets neither of these benefits. It's a delayed, directional skill. It doesn't feel fun to use at all and doesn't give you a reward for landing the skill like the 9s delayed burst of shalks does.

If you're going to insist on the animation of ghostly remaining the same, it deserves to be better than the two other similar skills that are infinitely easier to use than it.

I get the approach that ZOS wants class identity to be a thing, but to also have standards for categories and hierarchies for broad sets of skills. However, this is just bad.

A DK doesn't need to aim their burning talons to catch their target. There's also the clear irony that the devs removed the CC function from ghostly embrace to give it this special DOT, apparently completely forgetting that burning talons does exactly that WITH an immobilize CC attached. This is clear favoritism and needs to be corrected.

A bow user on any class will not have that much trouble landing an acid spray on a strafing target, allowing them to reapply the dot on cooldown.

This is just simply not possible on Necro and it's really frustrating that the devs once again made a change to Necro that proves they don't play this class. Imagine if the DOT of acid spray was ONLY applicable for the 6m-12m portion of the conal. That's what a Necro has to do, but also do it by seeing the future because the second patch doesn't fire instantly. It has a delay.

The patches need to move at least as fast as shalks to be viable here. There's also no precedent being given as to why this skill needs to have its CC removed to get the damage. DKs get the damage and the CC. Acid spray doesn't, but I'd argue that's fine considering that it's a universal weapon skill and not a class skill. Class skills deserve to be unique and distinct from generic versions of its skills.

Here's a simple set of changes that should be implemented before Week 3 to make this skill see use:

• Travel Time - Increased to match Shalks
• Unique Damage Modifier - If travel time is not addressed, then this skill really deserves to have significantly more damage attached to it.
• CC Status - All patches need to keep their original CC qualities
• Empowering Grasp - Tweaked to increase the damage and healing by all your summons within 12m, not just those hit by the patches

Rationale:

• Travel Time - Landing this skill is not easy, especially in laggy Cyro. There either needs to be an incentive for choosing to use a skill that is multiples harder than its direct counterparts (burning talons or acid spray) or it needs to be easier to use. Increasing the travel time will make it more likely to land on the target.
• Unique Damage Modifier - There's no incentive to use this over the other two skills like it. Anyone can land Burning Talons and most people will be able to land Acid Spray, especially as the target is farther away because the attack is a conal, not linear like Ghostly Embrace.
• CC Status - (Pulled from above) Acid spray doesn't, but I'd argue that's fine considering that it's a universal weapon skill and not a class skill. Class skills deserve to be unique and distinct from generic versions of its skills.
• Empowering Grasp - This skill is nearly impossible to hit your own summons with. The skill was bugged for years and actually never applied the modifier but was clearly fixed a few patches ago. No one noticed because the skill itself is meh and only super niche builds use it, like my current necro pvp healer main. The buff barely ever lands and the skill costs way too much to use like a buff anyway. When I use it, I'm using it to CC a target or a group. I can't waste a GCD, the 3500 magicka, AND the brain power to play the "tag my summons" mini game with this buff. This skill needs to just flat grant the buff. Period. Stop making Necros jump through hoops for their skills.

Here's something I know you won't do, but I think you should consider because it would fix this skill for PvP use without wrecking the PvE balance:

"This damage is not affected by Battle Spirit"

You double the damage on the dot to make up for the fact that you'll only land the dot 1/5 casts and it stays balanced in PvE where you don't have to focus so hard to make the skill land.


Lastly - GLS? Are you done? You made it clear when you debuted it that you were going to continue tweaking it, but it seems that the combat team forgot to do that.

CameraBeardThePirate

Agreed. This is another example of "we tested this on a dummy parse and it felt OK, let's push it to live!" without any thought about how hard to use this ability is in actual combat.

If an ability is clunky to use, it should not be held to the same spreadsheet standards other abilities are held to.

Has anyone at ZOS ever tried to use this ability in PvP? How about solo arenas? Bosses that move around a lot? You aren't going to be hitting jack with it.

Grim_Overlord

Really great points being made here. Even if the power isn't bumped, given the precedent and model being used for this rework's damage is Burning Talons, giving this morph of Grasp its crowd control effects back makes a lot of sense. To make it more comparable and usable to talons then, each pool should apply the dot, non-stacking, rather than each pool having its own damage-related effect, as these just aren't stackable unless the enemy is shoved in the corner and kept there for a few seconds.

You could exchange the chilled proc in the first pool for the crowd control returning, though the extra corpse being made by the skill should honestly be given to both morphs of Grasp as it makes a huge difference having a spammable corpse generator other than BB with this skill's requirement of hitting an enemy. Empowering Grasp could lean harder into the crowd control aspect, but I think it would be more beneficial to focus around the support role it already has, maybe making it make a corpse when hitting an ally. Giving it some other group buffs beyond empower, maybe even a Necromancer unique buff/debuff, would fit well within the skill's power budget as well.

necro_the_crafter

Gonna post it here as well.

I dont know why is it that hard listen to people. This ability wasnt really used on necro since day 1 of Elseweyr. Because of its terrible aiming. Even though, ability had its aoe increased as well as speed of circles, its still really, REALLY bad.
Its a gamble, you just cast it and pray somebody would have to suddenly go afk so you can land atleast 1/3 of the ability. Not even mentioning that sometimes its gonna hit some bump right next to you and all 3 circles would spawn right on top of each other, and wont reach your target.

Playing necro right now with corpsebuster set feels like you just some chaotic fireball spawning random inctances of aoe damage in random places. So much variables have to align. BB have to act sober, player you are fighting with sould pay much attention to the game, terrian has to be flat so gravegrasp connect, bb have to leave its corpse close to a target so you can pop it with corpsebuster. We have a crown crates to gamble. Give the class control over its damage.

Also yea, remember GLS? Is it okay? is it in the place you want it to be?

Alaztor91

On one hand I appreciate that ZOS is implementing new ideas for useless skills like Grave Grasp and morphs. On the other hand, they seem to not comprehend that the major issues with this particular skill are the travel time of the ''patches of claws'' and the positioning requirements that you have to fulfill just so you don't end up wasting resources and a GCD casting this.

It doesn't matter if you add damage/cc/etc to the skill, the core issues that make the skill clunky and unreliable are still there. No one is going to waste resources and GCDs taking a gamble and casting this when you can just use a ''normal skill'' that will do its job 100% of the time.

It feels like whoever tweaked this skill is just looking at tooltip values and completely ignoring how this skill mechanically works.

propertyOfUndefined

Necromancer really does feel like the red-headed stepchild of the classes, perpetually neglected and underloved. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs are thinking, "We already gave Necro an overhaul... it's called the Arcanist now!"

Bravo, I guess?

C'mon, guys... at least finish GLS? Please?

CameraBeardThePirate

Honestly why would any Necro slot Grave Grasp over Acid Spray? Or even Bombard for that matter.

Acid Spray is instant, has a bigger AoE, is cheaper, deals more damage (thanks to +25% Bow passives), is WAY easier to aim, and has a better status effect that actually synergizes with Necromancer's passives (Poisoned).

If you want us to use our class abilities, give us a good reason to. Grave Grasp is still hot garbage in any fight with mobility.

OtarTheMad

I like that ZOS is trying to give Necro some damage outside of the damage skill line, it is exactly one of the things Necro needed and was even the ability that needed to have it.

However, Necro is still weird to play and feels slow. Every ability Necro has has some sort of delay to it or is just slow. When I play it, which is still sadly too much, it just feels like the identity is all over the place. A self-synergy, which is unique, but only on one damage ability, tethers which are unique but are too easily lost via LoS and are unreliable, a corpse mechanic that doesn't seem to work in Necro's favor a lot and even dumb as nails NPC's can make using that system hard.

I am telling you... speed up flame skull spammable, speed up or change the Grave Grasp so we can reliably hit people, give us some sticky dots... my suggestion has always been on Blastbones and have it so when the Skeletal summons dies you can active an ability (similar to Crystal Frags) and hit the target, I would also boost the damage to Skeletal summons, change Animated BB ultimate into something like Mass Reanimation and it summons 3-4 zombies who do DoT damage to those in the circle but can also be exploded via synergy (and make it a self synergy option too). Make it so most abilities drop a corpse.

The thinking with the above is you give BB a DoT and Skeletal summons as well then it will make it easier on the rotation for the Necro since they won't need to recast BB until that dot is over and the same for Skeletal. Plus, it gives them some pressure in PvP which it sorely needs. MG, Psjiic, FG, Scribing, Weapon lines... all these have abilities that are options, for fun or for variety but for Necro they are a must.

I also like the diagram Crafter made with Grave Grasp, that would work better for this morph. ZOS is going in the right direction by putting damage on it but it still needs tweaks.

Aldoss

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Honestly why would any Necro slot Grave Grasp over Acid Spray? Or even Bombard for that matter.

Acid Spray is instant, has a bigger AoE, is cheaper, deals more damage (thanks to +25% Bow passives), is WAY easier to aim, and has a better status effect that actually synergizes with Necromancer's passives (Poisoned).

If you want us to use our class abilities, give us a good reason to. Grave Grasp is still hot garbage in any fight with mobility.

Let's play this out for ZOS:

Snipe, despite the cast time, is a much better spammable than skull will ever be and Lethal Arrow's status is actually boosted by Rapid Rot.

Volley, thank god that I can finally say that boneyard is better than this skill, but this is honestly it.

Magnum shot/Draining Shot is a more reliable CC than all the Necro class CCs and costs less (but is single target).

Acid Spray is exactly as quoted above.

Poison Injection is a better spammable than skulls will ever be OR Venom Arrow is a better source of brutality/sorcery than Skeletal Arcanist and actually gets buffed by Rapid Rot.

The only class skill that actually wins out here is Boneyard, except Boneyard will FOREVER will be outclassed by EleSus so long as ZOS insists on it being a free to cast, max range skill.

This is sad.

Deimus

I went on the PTS to compare Grave Grasp and Burning Talons after reading your post and it's shameful. The inherent uncertainty of the ability and the removal of cc makes it a drastically worse skill than Burning Talons. A skill which does instant damage, a DoT, cc, has a damage dealing synergy, and always hits if the target is in range. Make each patch inflict the DoT and tack the cc back on to Grave Grasp or boost the direct and DoT damage of the skill to make it a pure damage skill that clearly eclipses Talon's damage.

That is completely unacceptable ZOS. The only way Grave Grasp is better is if you somehow hit all 3 patches on the target, but if you have someone to activate the synergy on Burning Talons the damage dealt exceeds Grave Grasp(a now purely damage skill) plus you get a root out of it. The uncertainty of the skill makes it a greater risk to use so the reward of landing it should be much better, but the skills with little to no risk perform better.

GLS desperately needs A LOT of attention too. It really hasn't had any changes since it was pushed out unfinished to live, just bug fixes. I'm not giving up a burst damage slot on my bars for a buff, it needs to deal damage in some form. Make it interact with corpses you consume to spawn Blastbones, or the minions from the IA lich form while active. Maybe turn it into a sticky DoT that also increases your class and DoT damage/healing by 5% and inflicts a minor debuff.

Stalking BB>Blighted BB>GLS if you guys can't make GLS>or= Stalking BB the skill is unfinished or a failure.