PTS Update 44 - Feedback Thread for Two-Sided Battlegrounds

Cynical_Alchemist

I'll give feedback when I get a queue to pop. Which isn't easy when you play in Aussie prime time - there is no one around.

One thing I will say is that you should think about private lobbies for these new BGs.

Many other PvP games allow this. It means you get a match when you and your friends want it. No delays. No surprises.

Folks will front up for the MMR match-up matches when they want to leaderboard push, and get collectibles and rewards.

A private lobby will let people really get to know these new modes and maps without having to spend all their time in queues and then getting melted by pre-mades (which seems to be the prevalent experience judging by the replies above).

I understand that ZOS may feel this will pull players out of the queues. But what they won't be taking into account is that these private lobbies will make players come back to BGs - or try them for the first time - and these lobbies will feed more people into the queues overall as they want to test themselves and get all the shiny rewards.

It goes without saying that private lobbies should not earn players AP, rank progression, or reward coffers.

chessalavakia_ESO

I failed to get a queue to pop today. I queued for around 20 minutes for one then queued for around 20 minutes for the other back and forth for a bit over two hours.

Tcholl

Another BG solo queuer here and I also believe that allowing premades with solos is a big mistake. Those are not even playing the same game.

Cyro and IC already allow group play and now there is also the BG competitive mode. I don't see any reason why someone grouped must play on the 8 x 8. Even an optimized duo, with skill and comms, can be a hassle to solo players.

Some advantages are just too much and there is a point where it stops being fun.

Aldoss

Tcholl wrote: »

I don't see any reason why someone grouped must play on the 8 x 8.

I hear you about optimized duos.

I wrote about this earlier, but I'll reiterate the importance that ZOS create systems that promote a healthy population over the long term and not create systems for short term enjoyment.

The goal of this update is obviously to improve the BG experience and grow the playerbase. Fast pops, more engaging modes, and more fun modes are the way to do that. In a healthy playerbase, duos in the 8v8 pool won't impact the health of the games because optimized duos are so infrequent.

What we have now is not healthy. Group queue is 50/50 for my wife and I because we play this game together, so we are forced into that queue, even though we are casual pvpers. On nights where there is only 1x 4-stack, we go and play Valheim. We get 60-90 minutes a night to play this game and more than half of that is spent in queue. 1 premade completely destroys the joy of the game for everyone else.

Here's what I mean about volume solving the problem:

CURRENTLY - in order to play with your friends in this social game, you have to join the group queue. Let's remove MMR entirely since the MMR currently, and the one being proposed, are stupid anyway.

If there are only 4 other duos (10 players) that want to play BGs, nothing pops, and we all twiddle our thumbs for 20 minutes before finally deciding to do something else. It doesn't matter if you're an optimized team or not. No one plays.

If there are only 6 duos, a game is generated and we all play, unless one team skips the queue, in which it becomes a 4v4v2,
which happens way more than you'd think. My wife and I had 3 BGs in a row earlier this week where we never got a completed team.

If there are 20 duos, with 1 team being super sweaty, the likelihood that you will play against them is 26%. This happens frequently and we still play under those conditions because a sweaty duo simply doesn't have the same force as a 4-stack.

U44 - You are allowed to play with your friends and join the larger queue pool of solos and groups. Let's say ZOS gets smart and only allows duos into the 8v8.

If there are 30 solo players in the queue (not unreasonable given the current solo queue pop), and 5 total duos of any skill level, the probability that your team has no duos is only 17%.

In that same scenario, but 1 duo is super sweaty, it would be the same probability that you have fight against them in your next bg.

If the game gets fun and attracts more players (which is what we all should be hoping for), if the solo queue player base doubles to 60 solos, 10 total duos, with 2 of them being super sweaty, that chance that your next bg will have both sweaty duos in the bg AND on the same team is 1.1%.


We shouldn't advocate for systems that don't scale. Get the queue population up and the casuals will outnumber the sweaties and make it more and more statistically impossible for a super team to be created.

Change the scenario to have 1x 4-man super sweaty premade in it and you have a 1.6% chance that your next bg will even have the 4-stack, and a 0.8% chance that they'd be against you. However, I think it's important that the general consensus here is that 1x 4-man premade can, and will, absolutely destroy the integrity of the entire game for the other 12 people in a way that a super sweaty duo just can not.

Duos should be a reasonable cut off for 8v8.

taugrim

Aggrovious wrote: »

Just turn battle grounds into Super Smash Bros. Maps like Foyada Quarry are fun because you can knock your opponent into the lava. This will allow the weaker players to have a fighting chance.

You do realize that better players will knock less-skilled players in the lava moreso than the other way around, right?

Anything that makes it easier for weaker players will also work for stronger players.

taugrim

I am a diehard PVP player who also loves solo queue, both for the convenience and for the randomness factor, e.g. seeing rotating teams.

I have done premades in other games (e.g. 2k rating in 2v2/3v3 WoW Arena, 1.8k rating in WildStar 2v2, etc), and I don't want to be forced to queue with other players - it requires work to do organized groups (scheduling, voice comms, build compositions, etc).

As it is, in 4v4, solo and duo queue teams are going to get farmed by 4-man premades.

I also think 4-man premades in 8v8 will be a slaughter, even moreso because less-skilled players are going to get matched up against sweaty players.

---

The reality is that the vast majority of PVP diehards want DM only. They don't care about objectives, because they want the challenge of fighting other players, not clicking on or standing on flags.

I can think of a relative easy solution with 3 queues:
- 4v4 solo queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 4v4 premade queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 8v8 solo or duo queue, non-DM only, no MMR

The diehards can have their fun in DM in 4v4 (solo or premade). All the people who despise DM (and there are a lot of more casual players and a few rare diehards who fall in this camp) can have their fun in 8v8 and play objectives to their hearts' content.

Tcholl

@Aldoss

Have you and your wife tried a PvP raid in Cyro? I don't know your playstyle, if you are used with logs or even your CP but the guild I am in is always looking for new players. You both might just have a blast.

I spent most of my time in cyro playing in ballgroups, but still play some solo BGs here and there.

Tcholl

taugrim wrote: »

I am a diehard PVP player who also loves solo queue, both for the convenience and for the randomness factor, e.g. seeing rotating teams.

I have done premades in other games (e.g. 2k rating in 2v2/3v3 WoW Arena, 1.8k rating in WildStar 2v2, etc), and I don't want to be forced to queue with other players - it requires work to do organized groups (scheduling, voice comms, build compositions, etc).

As it is, in 4v4, solo and duo queue teams are going to get farmed by 4-man premades.

I also think 4-man premades in 8v8 will be a slaughter, even moreso because less-skilled players are going to get matched up against sweaty players.

---

The reality is that the vast majority of PVP diehards want DM only. They don't care about objectives, because they want the challenge of fighting other players, not clicking on or standing on flags.

I can think of a relative easy solution with 3 queues:
- 4v4 solo queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 4v4 premade queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 8v8 solo or duo queue, non-DM only, no MMR

The diehards can have their fun in DM in 4v4 (solo or premade). All the people who despise DM (and there are a lot of more casual players and a few rare diehards who fall in this camp) can have their fun in 8v8 and play objectives to their hearts' content.

This is a great suggestion imo.

Thumbless_Bot

taugrim wrote: »

I am a diehard PVP player who also loves solo queue, both for the convenience and for the randomness factor, e.g. seeing rotating teams.

I have done premades in other games (e.g. 2k rating in 2v2/3v3 WoW Arena, 1.8k rating in WildStar 2v2, etc), and I don't want to be forced to queue with other players - it requires work to do organized groups (scheduling, voice comms, build compositions, etc).

As it is, in 4v4, solo and duo queue teams are going to get farmed by 4-man premades.

I also think 4-man premades in 8v8 will be a slaughter, even moreso because less-skilled players are going to get matched up against sweaty players.

---

The reality is that the vast majority of PVP diehards want DM only. They don't care about objectives, because they want the challenge of fighting other players, not clicking on or standing on flags.

I can think of a relative easy solution with 3 queues:
- 4v4 solo queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 4v4 premade queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 8v8 solo or duo queue, non-DM only, no MMR

The diehards can have their fun in DM in 4v4 (solo or premade). All the people who despise DM (and there are a lot of more casual players and a few rare diehards who fall in this camp) can have their fun in 8v8 and play objectives to their hearts' content.

I think Taugrim makes an incredibly important point here that the devs/product owner who made this decision to combine queues may have not recognized.

There are a lot of us solo queue folks who do not have the time to prepare/organize a group to enter a bg. Currently we can solo queue and get a pretty competitive match quickly woth other solos. After a long day of work, this is a lot of fun and easy to do. If we are required to competenin bgs with premade groups we are going to be at a significant disadvantage because we are ongoing in solo. This will make bgs less fun and make, at least me, a lot less likely to queue. I will spend my pvp time elsewhere and that bothers me because I think solo bgs are the purest, most competitive and most fair pvp in this game. It would be a big loss.

Tcholl

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I am a diehard PVP player who also loves solo queue, both for the convenience and for the randomness factor, e.g. seeing rotating teams.

I have done premades in other games (e.g. 2k rating in 2v2/3v3 WoW Arena, 1.8k rating in WildStar 2v2, etc), and I don't want to be forced to queue with other players - it requires work to do organized groups (scheduling, voice comms, build compositions, etc).

As it is, in 4v4, solo and duo queue teams are going to get farmed by 4-man premades.

I also think 4-man premades in 8v8 will be a slaughter, even moreso because less-skilled players are going to get matched up against sweaty players.

---

The reality is that the vast majority of PVP diehards want DM only. They don't care about objectives, because they want the challenge of fighting other players, not clicking on or standing on flags.

I can think of a relative easy solution with 3 queues:
- 4v4 solo queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 4v4 premade queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 8v8 solo or duo queue, non-DM only, no MMR

The diehards can have their fun in DM in 4v4 (solo or premade). All the people who despise DM (and there are a lot of more casual players and a few rare diehards who fall in this camp) can have their fun in 8v8 and play objectives to their hearts' content.

I think Taugrim makes an incredibly important point here that the devs/product owner who made this decision to combine queues may have not recognized.

There are a lot of us solo queue folks who do not have the time to prepare/organize a group to enter a bg. Currently we can solo queue and get a pretty competitive match quickly woth other solos. After a long day of work, this is a lot of fun and easy to do. If we are required to competenin bgs with premade groups we are going to be at a significant disadvantage because we are ongoing in solo. This will make bgs less fun and make, at least me, a lot less likely to queue. I will spend my pvp time elsewhere and that bothers me because I think solo bgs are the purest, most competitive and most fair pvp in this game. It would be a big loss.

There are also players like myself, that already spend a lot of time and effort on Cyro ballgroup and organized comp and sometimes just want to play solo on some casual matches. Truth is no one queuing solo wants to face premade groups.

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, thanks for the feedback regarding MMR and medals. After chatting with the team, we have a few points just to clarify as you continue testing.

1. MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.
2. Leaderboards have historically been populated based on your medal score, which are earned by completing objectives in Battlegrounds. However we are reviewing your feedback regarding this topic. For now, we will continue to monitor and evaluate your feedback noted here, in addition to watching player behavior as the PTS cycle continues.
3. We have seen some of your feedback regarding MMR Degrade and looking at potential next steps here. Nothing to announce now, but we see the feedback.

Thanks for the continued feedback!

Aldoss

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the feedback regarding MMR and medals. After chatting with the team, we have a few points just to clarify as you continue testing.

1. MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.
2. Leaderboards have historically been populated based on your medal score, which are earned by completing objectives in Battlegrounds. However we are reviewing your feedback regarding this topic. For now, we will continue to monitor and evaluate your feedback noted here, in addition to watching player behavior as the PTS cycle continues.
3. We have seen some of your feedback regarding MMR Degrade and looking at potential next steps here. Nothing to announce now, but we see the feedback.

Thanks for the continued feedback!

Thanks for jumping in here Kevin and for doing it before PTS week 1 is even over.

Can you possibly define what the game logic sees as "premade". Is any group a premade? Are 3 person groups premades? 4-mans only?

I have extensive experience in the group only queue of this game because 99% of the time when I'm playing, I'm grouped with my wife. The duo scene is mostly casual with the inevitable smattering of a few well known duos that are on highly optimized builds and know how to use them well. Those duos rarely ruin the queue and games typically continue to pop on nights when there's only 1 or two of them.

3's are rare because they never get pops, so I can't speak to them.

4's 100% ruin the queue unless there's at least 2. 1 4-man will completely destroy the will of the casuals to queue.

Lastly, if ZOS decides to not change anything (which I strongly advise against here), will there be any adjustment to BG scoring to finally incorporate pet dmg and healing into the mix? Necro's dmg scores can easily miss out on 1M+ damage from BB alone.

Tcholl

1 - MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.

With all due respect, when possible is the issue. Sometimes you get a fun match and sometimes it is pure frustration. This is the formula to make someone start quitting during matches or worst not come back.

Necrotech_Master

i would agree with others that the medal score is the worst possible metric to use for the MMR

in your first point about MMR being used to match up player skill for better matches, however medal score in no way shape or form shows the player is skilled

like others have pointed out, you could do nothing but spam heals and get a great medal score, and lose every match by being spawn camped, but your still going to get matched against higher skill players because your medal score is high

chessalavakia_ESO

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i would agree with others that the medal score is the worst possible metric to use for the MMR

in your first point about MMR being used to match up player skill for better matches, however medal score in no way shape or form shows the player is skilled

like others have pointed out, you could do nothing but spam heals and get a great medal score, and lose every match by being spawn camped, but your still going to get matched against higher skill players because your medal score is high

I think they could probably make Medal Score a better indicator if they did some tuning on how much things are rewarded.

For example, the info in game for Death Match says Critical Heal rewards 5 medal score. However, in the actual gameplay it rewards 100.

Medal Score does have the potential advantage that it can more quickly separate players that perform well and it can limit the amount players can buy carries to the leaderboard.

Does anyone happen to know if the queues are working or not? I was in queue for over an hour today at what I thought would be prime time NA and I didn't get a pop.

WolfCombatPet

Can someone confirm that we will no longer be allowed to sign up for 3-team battlegrounds?

bladenick

2 side PVP is really hardcore mode, there only happy winner and frustrating loser, and every body play for win, build for win, it will bring serious balance issue as everybody chose S tie class just for win, this will even worse with premade team allow, it will soon be found out most efficiently build and class combinations, or just 1-2 best class get 4/8 size team to get in BG

There totally no fun and complain regarding class balance will flooding forum , then the end of balance adjustment shall be all class lose identity and cast similar skill , similar play style

3 side PVP is best for most casual player, as there middle ground between win and lose, and there also possibility that red + green joint together to counter purple as this round purple is too strong

2 side with premade will only end at only elite player get involve with most powerful setup and class, causal player will never touch it again once slaughtered several time by those premade play for win team, it totally no fun for casual solo player

Necrotech_Master

WolfCombatPet wrote: »

Can someone confirm that we will no longer be allowed to sign up for 3-team battlegrounds?

they explicitly said that 3 team BGs will only return for limited events, so i wouldnt expect to be able to queue for them for quite awhile

VixxVexx

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

[*] MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.

Exactly that Kevin, "try to avoid". So it'll still be possible for premades to get into solo, however unlikely.
We are asking for the removal of any possibility of premades showing up in solo Q. (duos maybe)
This was a big problem before and you changed the queues to adress this issue. Please don't forget.

This update could be a second chance for BGs to atract new players and for people willing to give it a second chance.
The moment they have to deal with premades in their solo Q they will just leave and never come back, repeating the cycle.
We all know that if this doesn't get changed now, we will be looking at another 3-4 months before the earliest fix, and by then it'll be too late.

Bashev

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the feedback regarding MMR and medals. After chatting with the team, we have a few points just to clarify as you continue testing.

1. MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.
2. Leaderboards have historically been populated based on your medal score, which are earned by completing objectives in Battlegrounds. However we are reviewing your feedback regarding this topic. For now, we will continue to monitor and evaluate your feedback noted here, in addition to watching player behavior as the PTS cycle continues.
3. We have seen some of your feedback regarding MMR Degrade and looking at potential next steps here. Nothing to announce now, but we see the feedback.

Thanks for the continued feedback!

The problem with 1 is that even if all players are solo, when one of the groups is better the other start accusing it that they are premade. We had that back in the days, I ve received so many whispers that i am in a premade and try hard, although i was queuing alone and all the rest was also solo as we were non stop in different teams each game.

CameraBeardThePirate

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the feedback regarding MMR and medals. After chatting with the team, we have a few points just to clarify as you continue testing.

1. MMR is used in matchmaking to pair players with similar experience and skill levels for ESO PvP battlegrounds. So when possible, the game logic will try to avoid putting premades with solo players.
2. Leaderboards have historically been populated based on your medal score, which are earned by completing objectives in Battlegrounds. However we are reviewing your feedback regarding this topic. For now, we will continue to monitor and evaluate your feedback noted here, in addition to watching player behavior as the PTS cycle continues.
3. We have seen some of your feedback regarding MMR Degrade and looking at potential next steps here. Nothing to announce now, but we see the feedback.

Thanks for the continued feedback!

@ZOS_Kevin I'm glad the team is looking into Medal Score, and I want to stress that if the leaderboards don't move away from using Medal Score, then the medals and scoreboard need to start counting Pet Damage, Pet Healing, and Shielding done. If they don't, those builds (i.e., Necros and shielder supports) will have an unfair disadvantage in climbing the leaderboard.

Rhaegar75

Critical to work out what "try to avoid" actually means statistically....avoided for 80% of the BGs or 20% of the BGs??

Personally if I was matched up against a premade I'd be out of the BG in seconds: I suspect most solo players will do the same unless they like being farmed by a premade group

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Can anyone report what the stats of the Behemoth and Scion forms granted by the Chaos Ball are?

valenwood_vegan

So there's a lot of talk in this and some other threads about the new BG's expressing various concerns that the new 8x8 mode, as currently designed, won't be pleasant for more casual players and those new to pvp, for various reasons.

I think they're good points, but I've noticed something is conspicuously missing so far... actual feedback from this type of player. I can only speak for myself and my own pve circles, but none of us... from casual up to sweaty pve'er... has much interest in the new BG's regardless of what little changes they may make to grouping or MMR.

So take what I say with a grain of salt if you want to... but I think they need to go even farther with making a casual BG mode if this type of player is going to be attracted. Like obviously not mixing solo casual-type players with coordinated premade groups and various suggestions for improving MMR are an easy adjustment that would at least help.

But even then, pvp is overwhelming for players who don't spend a lot of time pvp'ing. It has a steep learning curve and requires a quite different approach from pve, and particularly from more casual content.

It is not very rewarding for low-skilled players or those who might pvp casually... ie: popping in for a couple quick BG matches, but not really looking to spend time coming up with builds, optimizing their gear, and keeping up with the ever-changing meta.

Our limited experiences in pvp often involve getting stomped on by elite players or cheese builds, while perhaps trying to follow guides but lacking an understanding of why our builds or skills aren't working. Constantly getting matched up against players who wipe the floor with us and having a feeling of complete uselessness. Watching others farm us and rack up unfathomable (to us) amounts of pvp currency and buy the best of the rewards while we bang our heads against the wall getting scraps. Constantly getting matched against players who are much better, who know the right gear to use this patch on the right class and right build, who coordinate in comms... it's an *immediate* turn-off.

Now I certainly don't have some magic solution... I barely touch pvp at all in eso at this point. I'm sure this suggestion will get a lot of pushback, but I'm still gonna say it - I would consider a pvp mode where players simply choose their gear for the match from a limited selection or even pre-defined setups on a screen in the lobby, everything is scaled to the same level, all the crazy procs are left out, and we just jump right in and battle. Sort of a "stepping-stone" to get people to try pvp out... if they like it, they might actually start working on builds and move to a more competitive mode.

Anyway, I'm just one person, so like I said take what I suggested with a grain of salt. But my overall point is that I think if there's any hope of getting this more casual or pve oriented type of player interested on a larger scale, zos needs to take some kind of action to entice them to try the new BG's while they're on PTS. Like a special BG weekend on PTS where you get a little reward on live for trying the new BG's. I dunno.

TL;DR: I think the concerns brought up so far are totally valid and worthy of consideration, but imo what's been suggested so far is not, on its own, going to make casual or pve oriented players interested on a large scale and, if that's desired, finding a way to get actual feedback from such players about what they might actually WANT in a casual bg mode ought to be considered.

[Edits for emphasis because, lots of words].

Thumbless_Bot

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

So there's a lot of talk in this and some other threads about the new BG's expressing various concerns that the new 8x8 mode, as currently designed, won't be pleasant for more casual players and those new to pvp, for various reasons.

I think they're good points, but I've noticed something is conspicuously missing so far... actual feedback from this type of player. I can only speak for myself and my own pve circles, but none of us... from casual up to sweaty pve'er... has much interest in the new BG's regardless of what little changes they may make to grouping or MMR.

So take what I say with a grain of salt if you want to... but I think they need to go even farther with making a casual BG mode if this type of player is going to be attracted. Like obviously not mixing solo casual-type players with coordinated premade groups and various suggestions for improving MMR are an easy adjustment that would at least help.

But even then, pvp is overwhelming for players who don't spend a lot of time pvp'ing. It has a steep learning curve and requires a quite different approach from pve, and particularly from more casual content.

It is not very rewarding for low-skilled players or those who might pvp casually... ie: popping in for a couple quick BG matches, but not really looking to spend time coming up with builds, optimizing their gear, and keeping up with the ever-changing meta.

Our limited experiences in pvp often involve getting stomped on by elite players or cheese builds, while perhaps trying to follow guides but lacking an understanding of why our builds or skills aren't working. Constantly getting matched up against players who wipe the floor with us and having a feeling of complete uselessness. Watching others farm us and rack up unfathomable (to us) amounts of pvp currency and buy the best of the rewards while we bang our heads against the wall getting scraps. Constantly getting matched against players who are much better, who know the right gear to use this patch on the right class and right build, who coordinate in comms... it's an *immediate* turn-off.

Now I certainly don't have some magic solution... I barely touch pvp at all in eso at this point. I'm sure this suggestion will get a lot of pushback, but I'm still gonna say it - I would consider a pvp mode where players simply choose their gear for the match from a limited selection or even pre-defined setups on a screen in the lobby, everything is scaled to the same level, all the crazy procs are left out, and we just jump right in and battle. Sort of a "stepping-stone" to get people to try pvp out... if they like it, they might actually start working on builds and move to a more competitive mode.

Anyway, I'm just one person, so like I said take what I suggested with a grain of salt. But my overall point is that I think if there's any hope of getting this more casual or pve oriented type of player interested on a larger scale, zos needs to take some kind of action to entice them to try the new BG's while they're on PTS. Like a special BG weekend on PTS where you get a little reward on live for trying the new BG's. I dunno.

TL;DR: I think the concerns brought up so far are totally valid and worthy of consideration, but imo what's been suggested so far is not, on its own, going to make casual or pve oriented players interested on a large scale and, if that's desired, finding a way to get actual feedback from such players about what they might actually WANT in a casual bg mode ought to be considered.

[Edits for emphasis because, lots of words].

I am not trying to be negative when I say this, only realistic and honest about what I feel. I do not believe zos is interested in the thoughts ideas or feelings of existing players because they have us. They are trying to attract new players. If they really had interest in making the experience better for any subset of existing bg players they would have prompted us for feedback BEFORE....BE...FORE they spent god knows how many dev sprints building into the new 2 sided bg format and maps.

Seriously, think about the amount of time and money spent on these new bgs and formats without any KNOWN preliminary feedback from the existing user base. It is really quite telling, disheartening and sad.

Also, I say 'known' because maybe they plucked a few people for feedback but got them to sign ndas. I don't know this and don't believe this but you never really know.

Lastly, and probably just as importantly, even if they did open up to feedback about their roadmap, I firmly believe that they wouldn't take it. I think they know where they are going and it doesn't really matter what we want.

valenwood_vegan

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I am not trying to be negative when I say this, only realistic and honest about what I feel. I do not believe zos is interested in the thoughts ideas or feelings of existing players because they have us. They are trying to attract new players. If they really had interest in making the experience better for any subset of existing bg players they would have prompted us for feedback BEFORE....BE...FORE they spent god knows how many dev sprints building into the new 2 sided bg format and maps.

Seriously, think about the amount of time and money spent on these new bgs and formats without any KNOWN preliminary feedback from the existing user base. It is really quite telling, disheartening and sad.

Also, I say 'known' because maybe they plucked a few people for feedback but got them to sign ndas. I don't know this and don't believe this but you never really know.

Lastly, and probably just as importantly, even if they did open up to feedback about their roadmap, I firmly believe that they wouldn't take it. I think they know where they are going and it doesn't really matter what we want.

Oh yeah, I get that, and I'm definitely not sure they actually do have a goal of bringing existing casual or pve players into the new BG's. I'm under no illusions that my feedback matters, but just wanted to say my piece in case it was of interest to anyone there.

For what it's worth, I do also, from what I've seen in my guilds, think they have a big problem with new players who come to the game looking to pvp... then discover all they need to go through to level up and gear up, to even have a chance of starting to learn and be competitive, and simply move on to a game where they can get into the action more quickly. We probably churn through a good dozen of these players every few weeks in just my one social guild.

Joy_Division

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

So there's a lot of talk in this and some other threads about the new BG's expressing various concerns that the new 8x8 mode, as currently designed, won't be pleasant for more casual players and those new to pvp, for various reasons.

I think they're good points, but I've noticed something is conspicuously missing so far... actual feedback from this type of player. I can only speak for myself and my own pve circles, but none of us... from casual up to sweaty pve'er... has much interest in the new BG's regardless of what little changes they may make to grouping or MMR.

So take what I say with a grain of salt if you want to... but I think they need to go even farther with making a casual BG mode if this type of player is going to be attracted. Like obviously not mixing solo casual-type players with coordinated premade groups and various suggestions for improving MMR are an easy adjustment that would at least help.

But even then, pvp is overwhelming for players who don't spend a lot of time pvp'ing. It has a steep learning curve and requires a quite different approach from pve, and particularly from more casual content.

It is not very rewarding for low-skilled players or those who might pvp casually... ie: popping in for a couple quick BG matches, but not really looking to spend time coming up with builds, optimizing their gear, and keeping up with the ever-changing meta.

Our limited experiences in pvp often involve getting stomped on by elite players or cheese builds, while perhaps trying to follow guides but lacking an understanding of why our builds or skills aren't working. Constantly getting matched up against players who wipe the floor with us and having a feeling of complete uselessness. Watching others farm us and rack up unfathomable (to us) amounts of pvp currency and buy the best of the rewards while we bang our heads against the wall getting scraps. Constantly getting matched against players who are much better, who know the right gear to use this patch on the right class and right build, who coordinate in comms... it's an *immediate* turn-off.

Now I certainly don't have some magic solution... I barely touch pvp at all in eso at this point. I'm sure this suggestion will get a lot of pushback, but I'm still gonna say it - I would consider a pvp mode where players simply choose their gear for the match from a limited selection or even pre-defined setups on a screen in the lobby, everything is scaled to the same level, all the crazy procs are left out, and we just jump right in and battle. Sort of a "stepping-stone" to get people to try pvp out... if they like it, they might actually start working on builds and move to a more competitive mode.

Anyway, I'm just one person, so like I said take what I suggested with a grain of salt. But my overall point is that I think if there's any hope of getting this more casual or pve oriented type of player interested on a larger scale, zos needs to take some kind of action to entice them to try the new BG's while they're on PTS. Like a special BG weekend on PTS where you get a little reward on live for trying the new BG's. I dunno.

TL;DR: I think the concerns brought up so far are totally valid and worthy of consideration, but imo what's been suggested so far is not, on its own, going to make casual or pve oriented players interested on a large scale and, if that's desired, finding a way to get actual feedback from such players about what they might actually WANT in a casual bg mode ought to be considered.

[Edits for emphasis because, lots of words].

Quoting this post for visibility.

I brought up this point in my pleas to raise pop caps in Cyrodiil . The biggest problem in ESO's PvP is that below average players - which by definition make up half of Cyrodiil population (to say nothing of the sort of player described in the post above - hardly ever fight each other.

Nothing in Cyrodiil encourages them to do anything, so they sit in a keep with their map open, waiting for crossed swords to appear. They then go to the crossed swords and usually get destroyed because the people who initiative the fights and create crossed swords are confident, skilled, experienced, pro PvPers.

For ten years, ZOS's approach to this problem was to nerf our classes thinking that nerfing the best skills the best players use will somehow not adversely affect the inexperienced players who have to use the same skills.

No. Create gameplay mechanics and PvP systems in which payers of equal abilities fight each other often enough such that they can once in a while learn rather than constantly being pitted against and being destroyed by 1vXers, ball groups, and organized small-scalers. ZOS has never figured this out in Cyrodiil, which creates a PvP environment in which the feelings expressed above are too commonplace.

I don;t know what to do because ZOS's low total PvP community means not very many people in que, so that means not very many casual players in que, so they get matched up with the sweats and the premades who play all the time.

I do know when I used to play regularly the MMR/ Que system was totally busted. I'd get stuck on a team of 3, with one obviously inexperienced player and have to go up against a premade team of 4. That's why I have long left battlegrounds. I;d rather wait in que, until I had an actual team of 4 and was matched up against similarly ranked players. Seriously, if a pop up box came and said, "You've been in que for 10 minutes. There is currently an open spot Vs a premade group, and you'll be on a team with lower ranked players, would you like to continue waiting?" I will hit the "yes, I'll keep waiting" button. Every.
Single. Time. It is that frustrating to be put up against players or premades who are that much stronger. Fighting against weaker players is just as bad and boring.

I'm reading the patch notes and it would seem to me that ZOS really wants to not have that happen for 8v8s. OK, let's learn from history. NO 4 TEAM PREMADES. No. Go away. There is a mode for precisely that. Use it. I have no idea how ZOS's MMR system tracks players but I do know it was not an accurate assessment of how good a player actually is. And it crazy to me that the medals don;t even account for things like pet damage or shields. And the scoreboard hasn't changed since 2018, so an amazing healer just has a bunch of zeros, giving the impression they were AFK the entire match.

What's actually changed about BGs aside from it's just two teams now? There aren;t different leagues or tiers for lower ranked/inexperienced players (which there probably should be). Our MMR is still secret, which means we have no idea how the game measures performance or how it thinks we stack up. We have no idea how to assess a match we lost: was it because the other team was grouped? Was it because the game thinks they are much better players? It certainly is a lot easier to make excuses and pin our frustrations at the game system, which is not a healthy game mechanic.

Mostly I think ESO needs to go out of it's way to let inexperienced players know they will be only be matched with each other, unless they specifically opt for an unbalanced match. Other games do this with a lobby where they can see how many other players are waiting and their relative strength, and thus have the confidence they stand a good shot at having a competitive match and know what they are getting into. Everything is such a big mystery in BGs, which makes the barrier for entry unnecessarily more difficult and very frustrating as we do not know how to interpret why we got matched up with who we just played against.

Necrotech_Master

Joy_Division wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

So there's a lot of talk in this and some other threads about the new BG's expressing various concerns that the new 8x8 mode, as currently designed, won't be pleasant for more casual players and those new to pvp, for various reasons.

I think they're good points, but I've noticed something is conspicuously missing so far... actual feedback from this type of player. I can only speak for myself and my own pve circles, but none of us... from casual up to sweaty pve'er... has much interest in the new BG's regardless of what little changes they may make to grouping or MMR.

So take what I say with a grain of salt if you want to... but I think they need to go even farther with making a casual BG mode if this type of player is going to be attracted. Like obviously not mixing solo casual-type players with coordinated premade groups and various suggestions for improving MMR are an easy adjustment that would at least help.

But even then, pvp is overwhelming for players who don't spend a lot of time pvp'ing. It has a steep learning curve and requires a quite different approach from pve, and particularly from more casual content.

It is not very rewarding for low-skilled players or those who might pvp casually... ie: popping in for a couple quick BG matches, but not really looking to spend time coming up with builds, optimizing their gear, and keeping up with the ever-changing meta.

Our limited experiences in pvp often involve getting stomped on by elite players or cheese builds, while perhaps trying to follow guides but lacking an understanding of why our builds or skills aren't working. Constantly getting matched up against players who wipe the floor with us and having a feeling of complete uselessness. Watching others farm us and rack up unfathomable (to us) amounts of pvp currency and buy the best of the rewards while we bang our heads against the wall getting scraps. Constantly getting matched against players who are much better, who know the right gear to use this patch on the right class and right build, who coordinate in comms... it's an *immediate* turn-off.

Now I certainly don't have some magic solution... I barely touch pvp at all in eso at this point. I'm sure this suggestion will get a lot of pushback, but I'm still gonna say it - I would consider a pvp mode where players simply choose their gear for the match from a limited selection or even pre-defined setups on a screen in the lobby, everything is scaled to the same level, all the crazy procs are left out, and we just jump right in and battle. Sort of a "stepping-stone" to get people to try pvp out... if they like it, they might actually start working on builds and move to a more competitive mode.

Anyway, I'm just one person, so like I said take what I suggested with a grain of salt. But my overall point is that I think if there's any hope of getting this more casual or pve oriented type of player interested on a larger scale, zos needs to take some kind of action to entice them to try the new BG's while they're on PTS. Like a special BG weekend on PTS where you get a little reward on live for trying the new BG's. I dunno.

TL;DR: I think the concerns brought up so far are totally valid and worthy of consideration, but imo what's been suggested so far is not, on its own, going to make casual or pve oriented players interested on a large scale and, if that's desired, finding a way to get actual feedback from such players about what they might actually WANT in a casual bg mode ought to be considered.

[Edits for emphasis because, lots of words].

Quoting this post for visibility.

I brought up this point in my pleas to raise pop caps in Cyrodiil . The biggest problem in ESO's PvP is that below average players - which by definition make up half of Cyrodiil population (to say nothing of the sort of player described in the post above - hardly ever fight each other.

Nothing in Cyrodiil encourages them to do anything, so they sit in a keep with their map open, waiting for crossed swords to appear. They then go to the crossed swords and usually get destroyed because the people who initiative the fights and create crossed swords are confident, skilled, experienced, pro PvPers.

For ten years, ZOS's approach to this problem was to nerf our classes thinking that nerfing the best skills the best players use will somehow not adversely affect the inexperienced players who have to use the same skills.

No. Create gameplay mechanics and PvP systems in which payers of equal abilities fight each other often enough such that they can once in a while learn rather than constantly being pitted against and being destroyed by 1vXers, ball groups, and organized small-scalers. ZOS has never figured this out in Cyrodiil, which creates a PvP environment in which the feelings expressed above are too commonplace.

I don;t know what to do because ZOS's low total PvP community means not very many people in que, so that means not very many casual players in que, so they get matched up with the sweats and the premades who play all the time.

I do know when I used to play regularly the MMR/ Que system was totally busted. I'd get stuck on a team of 3, with one obviously inexperienced player and have to go up against a premade team of 4. That's why I have long left battlegrounds. I;d rather wait in que, until I had an actual team of 4 and was matched up against similarly ranked players. Seriously, if a pop up box came and said, "You've been in que for 10 minutes. There is currently an open spot Vs a premade group, and you'll be on a team with lower ranked players, would you like to continue waiting?" I will hit the "yes, I'll keep waiting" button. Every.
Single. Time. It is that frustrating to be put up against players or premades who are that much stronger. Fighting against weaker players is just as bad and boring.

I'm reading the patch notes and it would seem to me that ZOS really wants to not have that happen for 8v8s. OK, let's learn from history. NO 4 TEAM PREMADES. No. Go away. There is a mode for precisely that. Use it. I have no idea how ZOS's MMR system tracks players but I do know it was not an accurate assessment of how good a player actually is. And it crazy to me that the medals don;t even account for things like pet damage or shields. And the scoreboard hasn't changed since 2018, so an amazing healer just has a bunch of zeros, giving the impression they were AFK the entire match.

What's actually changed about BGs aside from it's just two teams now? There aren;t different leagues or tiers for lower ranked/inexperienced players (which there probably should be). Our MMR is still secret, which means we have no idea how the game measures performance or how it thinks we stack up. We have no idea how to assess a match we lost: was it because the other team was grouped? Was it because the game thinks they are much better players? It certainly is a lot easier to make excuses and pin our frustrations at the game system, which is not a healthy game mechanic.

Mostly I think ESO needs to go out of it's way to let inexperienced players know they will be only be matched with each other, unless they specifically opt for an unbalanced match. Other games do this with a lobby where they can see how many other players are waiting and their relative strength, and thus have the confidence they stand a good shot at having a competitive match and know what they are getting into. Everything is such a big mystery in BGs, which makes the barrier for entry unnecessarily more difficult and very frustrating as we do not know how to interpret why we got matched up with who we just played against.

the mmr hasnt really been a secret, it was based on cumulative medal score before, and from the sound of things, still basing it on cumulative medal score (though they did mention that is something they are currently discussing to improve upon)

chessalavakia_ESO

I'm unsure if the engine can handle it but, if it can in 8 v 8 matches it might be worth adding an auto-balance that will move players to the other team if the teams are uneven and automatically grant said player victory credit at the end.

My team didn't start the match with a full slate and we had a player leave which turned it into a 6 vs 8 and it was a major stomping.



In the life based death matches you can at times hit situations where everyone will just be waiting for you to die because winning simply isn't going to happen.

gariondavey

taugrim wrote: »

I am a diehard PVP player who also loves solo queue, both for the convenience and for the randomness factor, e.g. seeing rotating teams.

I have done premades in other games (e.g. 2k rating in 2v2/3v3 WoW Arena, 1.8k rating in WildStar 2v2, etc), and I don't want to be forced to queue with other players - it requires work to do organized groups (scheduling, voice comms, build compositions, etc).

As it is, in 4v4, solo and duo queue teams are going to get farmed by 4-man premades.

I also think 4-man premades in 8v8 will be a slaughter, even moreso because less-skilled players are going to get matched up against sweaty players.

---

The reality is that the vast majority of PVP diehards want DM only. They don't care about objectives, because they want the challenge of fighting other players, not clicking on or standing on flags.

I can think of a relative easy solution with 3 queues:
- 4v4 solo queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 4v4 premade queue, DM only, MMR matched
- 8v8 solo or duo queue, non-DM only, no MMR

The diehards can have their fun in DM in 4v4 (solo or premade). All the people who despise DM (and there are a lot of more casual players and a few rare diehards who fall in this camp) can have their fun in 8v8 and play objectives to their hearts' content.

this is actually a really good idea. i was thinking something along very similar lines