now time to fix Rush of Agony

Iriidius

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

So despite blocking randoms already must be spread far out before the ballgroup even casts gapcloser so all the time while ballgroups thanks to group effects can stay stacked all the time without having to fear getting bombed and not even have to block. Looks really fair and balanced, doesnt it?

Compare that to solo bombers who not only have a faction of the dmg that will often not even kill you if you get hit by full combo but also much less CC allowing you to just walk out of it.


I often had ballgroups pulling on me when I was standing alone with no other players in meele range and still a few players pulled into me because ballgroups also jump solo players and rush of agony has such a huge range.

When you are spreading out as much as you should you are spreading out too far to hit them with meele aoes before they finish their burst and keep running and you miss the only moment they are staying at a place and can be hit.
Rush of Agony can pull players from side doors or wayshrine to flag or vice versa so it covers half of a (non-tri)keep/outpost lower floor.

Iriidius

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

zammo wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Just add cc immunity to it so you don’t get infinitely ping-ponged

This is all it needs, and all it ever needed.

RoA also needs a clear indicator of where it's happening so players have a chance to counter the set.

Again, the indicator is the group's spearhead gap closing into a pile. You really don't need more of an indicator than that.

That is not a skill indicator. That is the ability to accurately guess the next things to happen in game.

RoA needs a visual que so that players know it's about to go off and where so they can react appropriately even if their back is turned to the ball group for the moment.

There's nothing to "guess" though??? You see someone gap close into your group > you hold block for exactly 1 second.

You probably shouldn't have your back to a ballgroup in the first place - they're generally the biggest threat on the field.

Gap closer are often happening very fast and with positional desync, lag and the gapcloser visual delayed there is often no time at all to react to a single gap closer especially when your block is also delayed. Also not every gap closer is used with rush of agony, players also use gap closer for closing gaps. Should I block every zergling spamming gapcloser in case he could have rush of agony? Maybe I should gapclose on players just to troll them and give them flashbags from ballgroup and so they do not recognize RoA gapcloser in the mass of gapclosers.

Having your back to a ballgroup is hard to avoid if the ballgroups ambushes you before you even know they are there by coming threw a door or jumping from above which ballgroups often do and will lead to many death by ballgroup even if you try to avoid them (by leaving any objective where they are giving up the objective and your allies).

Iriidius

Tcholl wrote: »

You do not have to perma block, just block the pull. As I have stated before, you do not need a big red circle to know what is coming. Ballgroups for example, will often have proxy on just before the pull. You will have the visual and audio feedback.

Also, when you are solo you can move quicker than a group and if you manage the distance you will not be pulled.

I really don't care about hate threads, regarding ballgroups of whatever. This is just the way this community is. Everyone complains about ballgroups, corrosive, cloak, streak, pyrebrand... If they do nerf rush, which I believe they won't, ballgroups will adapt to the next best strat to pull.

Solo players can not move quicker than groups.
Groups can move faster than solo players because whole group can get major and minor expedition at all time from one member casting rapid maneuver.

Many ballgroups seem to not use proxy deto when they are jumping players and therefore you also do not have visual and audio feedback and often also not expect to get pulled when you are spread out.

Seems like you care about „hate threads“ enaugh to write an answer defending ballgroups to discourage players from asking for nerfs and ZoS from executing them.

Red_Nine

Has anyone tried running Binding Banner scribed skill to prevent being pulled? I tried it and had some success with it.

Durham

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

Except I have been pulled through doors, and in lag, it can be up to 20 meters away. Im sorry this like all other proc sets should have no place in PVP.

DeadlySerious

During the most recent "pvp livestream":

SypherPK: "What's that pulling me all over the place like that?"

What was the response Sypher got to his question? Watch the stream.

CameraBeardThePirate

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

So despite blocking randoms already must be spread far out before the ballgroup even casts gapcloser so all the time while ballgroups thanks to group effects can stay stacked all the time without having to fear getting bombed and not even have to block. Looks really fair and balanced, doesnt it?

Compare that to solo bombers who not only have a faction of the dmg that will often not even kill you if you get hit by full combo but also much less CC allowing you to just walk out of it.


I often had ballgroups pulling on me when I was standing alone with no other players in meele range and still a few players pulled into me because ballgroups also jump solo players and rush of agony has such a huge range.

When you are spreading out as much as you should you are spreading out too far to hit them with meele aoes before they finish their burst and keep running and you miss the only moment they are staying at a place and can be hit.
Rush of Agony can pull players from side doors or wayshrine to flag or vice versa so it covers half of a (non-tri)keep/outpost lower floor.

Look, I'm not arguing Rush shouldn't be nerfed, because it should.

The issue is that counterplay was already added when they gave it a delay, and it didn't change much. That's in part because of the issues you pointed out, but the main problem is the set's functionality itself - the fact that it is the only thing in the entire game that will CC you without applying CC immunity.

Make Rush apply CC immunity, and suddenly half the people running it will stop running it. Seriously - that one small thing is why ballgroups run it. It locks down targets for twice as long as any other stun in the game. If you weren't able to be feared right after the pull, the amount of people running the set would drop substantially. It would still be great for clumping people up, but would no longer be a death sentence every time.

MincMincMinc

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

So despite blocking randoms already must be spread far out before the ballgroup even casts gapcloser so all the time while ballgroups thanks to group effects can stay stacked all the time without having to fear getting bombed and not even have to block. Looks really fair and balanced, doesnt it?

Compare that to solo bombers who not only have a faction of the dmg that will often not even kill you if you get hit by full combo but also much less CC allowing you to just walk out of it.


I often had ballgroups pulling on me when I was standing alone with no other players in meele range and still a few players pulled into me because ballgroups also jump solo players and rush of agony has such a huge range.

When you are spreading out as much as you should you are spreading out too far to hit them with meele aoes before they finish their burst and keep running and you miss the only moment they are staying at a place and can be hit.
Rush of Agony can pull players from side doors or wayshrine to flag or vice versa so it covers half of a (non-tri)keep/outpost lower floor.

Look, I'm not arguing Rush shouldn't be nerfed, because it should.

The issue is that counterplay was already added when they gave it a delay, and it didn't change much. That's in part because of the issues you pointed out, but the main problem is the set's functionality itself - the fact that it is the only thing in the entire game that will CC you without applying CC immunity.

Make Rush apply CC immunity, and suddenly half the people running it will stop running it. Seriously - that one small thing is why ballgroups run it. It locks down targets for twice as long as any other stun in the game. If you weren't able to be feared right after the pull, the amount of people running the set would drop substantially. It would still be great for clumping people up, but would no longer be a death sentence every time.

Cant argue against adding the proper cc immunity. However, all I see happening next is you just root players after being pulled. Which leads to panic roll dodges and guaranteed AOE hits. My dawnbreaker followup to rush will still hit the target.

Proper counterplay should be prioritized. Something that is fleeting in todays combat system where zos's priority is flashy dlc skills/sets that make combat hard to see. If you look at most of the original skills/animations, the important animations like ultimates would be flashy compared to simple buff skills like lightning form.

I dont know how they mess things like this up. Any counterplay mechanic must have a telegraphed animation followed by a delay for the receiving player to respond. Failure to respond would lead to punishment. For Hard CC in this case the pull(stun) this counterplay would blocking(not rolling) and failure to do so results in being pulled and cc immunity being applied.

---

My go to zos counterplay design failure is with dizzy swing pre and post elsweyr.

Pre - Dizzy was a simple 1.3-1.5s (5-6 human reaction times) cast timed skill which has high burst damage and a knockup. Failure to respond by rolling, blocking, running, strafing during that time period had clear punishment for the defending player. Succeeding to respond in that time period wasted the caster's time and left them open to damage during the cast.

Post - Dizzy became a short 0.8s (3-4 human reaction times) cast timed skill with mediocre damage. It also has two forms of CC which is based on a near invisible debuff on enemy players. One being the stun which is disjointed from the GCD system and has no incoming animation. Unlike the PRE dizzy knockup being tied to the clear swing animation, this stun can come from ANY enemy which happens to hit a medium attack which may be invisible in an animation cancel. The second CC is a snare which applies to the enemy after the debuff cooldown which again is invisible.

I still dont understand why they added the snare in the first place. Anyways, one of these skills was clearly designed with clear combat counterplay in mind.

Aldoss

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

So despite blocking randoms already must be spread far out before the ballgroup even casts gapcloser so all the time while ballgroups thanks to group effects can stay stacked all the time without having to fear getting bombed and not even have to block. Looks really fair and balanced, doesnt it?

Compare that to solo bombers who not only have a faction of the dmg that will often not even kill you if you get hit by full combo but also much less CC allowing you to just walk out of it.


I often had ballgroups pulling on me when I was standing alone with no other players in meele range and still a few players pulled into me because ballgroups also jump solo players and rush of agony has such a huge range.

When you are spreading out as much as you should you are spreading out too far to hit them with meele aoes before they finish their burst and keep running and you miss the only moment they are staying at a place and can be hit.
Rush of Agony can pull players from side doors or wayshrine to flag or vice versa so it covers half of a (non-tri)keep/outpost lower floor.

Look, I'm not arguing Rush shouldn't be nerfed, because it should.

The issue is that counterplay was already added when they gave it a delay, and it didn't change much. That's in part because of the issues you pointed out, but the main problem is the set's functionality itself - the fact that it is the only thing in the entire game that will CC you without applying CC immunity.

Make Rush apply CC immunity, and suddenly half the people running it will stop running it. Seriously - that one small thing is why ballgroups run it. It locks down targets for twice as long as any other stun in the game. If you weren't able to be feared right after the pull, the amount of people running the set would drop substantially. It would still be great for clumping people up, but would no longer be a death sentence every time.

100% this.

All it needs to do is apply CC immunity. It's absolutely unreal that this set was allowed to enter live while breaking core combat mechanics.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

However, all I see happening next is you just root players after being pulled. Which leads to panic roll dodges and guaranteed AOE hits. My dawnbreaker followup to rush will still hit the target.

This already happens with Dark Convergence and it's mostly fine. The telegraph for DC is just way way way more beginner friendly than RoA is. RoA's telegraph is the thin, dark red tether that Void Bash uses. It's very fast, very thin, and very dark. Easy to miss.

I actually think that's fine considering that the difference between RoA and DC is that DC you can place anywhere (away from you) whereas with RoA, you are the center of the storm which can sometimes work against you if the bomb fails.

It just needs to apply CC immunity. It's crazy that it's gone this long without having that added. It's really such a stale meta. You do not see any organized groups that don't rely on it because this one set is the most abusive of all the pull sets of another player's agency.

Durham

I just laugh when I see this set and look at its power compared to other sets in the game. The utility is insane and the damage is high enough to make it a 5 piece bonus. Its CC is strong enough for a 10-piece set.

Any set that can pull an unlimited amount of people into a nice little ball for your group to bomb is insanely strong. Sorry!

LPapirius

Durham wrote: »

I just laugh when I see this set and look at its power compared to other sets in the game. The utility is insane and the damage is high enough to make it a 5 piece bonus. Its CC is strong enough for a 10-piece set.

Any set that can pull an unlimited amount of people into a nice little ball for your group to bomb is insanely strong. Sorry!

Ya, RoA proves there isn't enough testing going on prior to these set releases.

Avran_Sylt

It's a set designed to punish poor gearing and poor skill. Basically it's a sweatlords dream set to 1vX in Cyrodiil.

If the pull hits, it also CC's the enemy while pulling, increasing the damage window a player has to burst, and since it doesn't apply CC immunity, the player can use a CC skill again to have an even greater CC window and further burst. No doubt the rapid CC stuttering can also cause mis-inputs or disregarded input thanks to lag.

The argument that "Just assume every charge ability in the game is going to have this effect", is bad design.

I wouldn't be surprised if this set was designed in part with a 1vX'ers input. As far as PvE utility, it would only need the pull. But then they went and added a proc that's about as damaging as Tarnished. And specified that it doesn't apply CC immunity. Oh and unlike tarnished it has no visual indicator apart from becoming paranoid at every gap-closer in the game.

Wonder which streamer is pleasured that they talked the combat designers into making such a set they can use for more clips.

MindOfTheSwarm

(5 Items) Adds: Whenever you are pulled by a CC effect from an enemy player’s set effect, you attach a bomb to them and their nearby allies that deals X Magic Damage and stuns them for 6 seconds. The damage increases by 20% for every target a bomb is attached to.

RaidingTraiding

Aldoss wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The warning is the person gap closing into your group. If you see someone gap close, hold block for a second.

Between this and the agrees, that's 5 VD explosions from trying to block the followup fear stun.

If the person is pulling on someone else, and you block the pull, you'll be out of range of the fear if you were spread out as you should be.

If the person is pulling on you, and people get pulled into you to become VD fodder, you aren't spreading out as much as you should when it becomes apparent that an enemy is running rush.

Either way, the death is your own fault.

So despite blocking randoms already must be spread far out before the ballgroup even casts gapcloser so all the time while ballgroups thanks to group effects can stay stacked all the time without having to fear getting bombed and not even have to block. Looks really fair and balanced, doesnt it?

Compare that to solo bombers who not only have a faction of the dmg that will often not even kill you if you get hit by full combo but also much less CC allowing you to just walk out of it.


I often had ballgroups pulling on me when I was standing alone with no other players in meele range and still a few players pulled into me because ballgroups also jump solo players and rush of agony has such a huge range.

When you are spreading out as much as you should you are spreading out too far to hit them with meele aoes before they finish their burst and keep running and you miss the only moment they are staying at a place and can be hit.
Rush of Agony can pull players from side doors or wayshrine to flag or vice versa so it covers half of a (non-tri)keep/outpost lower floor.

Look, I'm not arguing Rush shouldn't be nerfed, because it should.

The issue is that counterplay was already added when they gave it a delay, and it didn't change much. That's in part because of the issues you pointed out, but the main problem is the set's functionality itself - the fact that it is the only thing in the entire game that will CC you without applying CC immunity.

Make Rush apply CC immunity, and suddenly half the people running it will stop running it. Seriously - that one small thing is why ballgroups run it. It locks down targets for twice as long as any other stun in the game. If you weren't able to be feared right after the pull, the amount of people running the set would drop substantially. It would still be great for clumping people up, but would no longer be a death sentence every time.

100% this.

All it needs to do is apply CC immunity. It's absolutely unreal that this set was allowed to enter live while breaking core combat mechanics.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

However, all I see happening next is you just root players after being pulled. Which leads to panic roll dodges and guaranteed AOE hits. My dawnbreaker followup to rush will still hit the target.

This already happens with Dark Convergence and it's mostly fine. The telegraph for DC is just way way way more beginner friendly than RoA is. RoA's telegraph is the thin, dark red tether that Void Bash uses. It's very fast, very thin, and very dark. Easy to miss.

I actually think that's fine considering that the difference between RoA and DC is that DC you can place anywhere (away from you) whereas with RoA, you are the center of the storm which can sometimes work against you if the bomb fails.

It just needs to apply CC immunity. It's crazy that it's gone this long without having that added. It's really such a stale meta. You do not see any organized groups that don't rely on it because this one set is the most abusive of all the pull sets of another player's agency.

This meta keeps getting more stale with each patch. They keep adding stuff to buff group survivability and it further reinforces the pull meta. Arcanists shields, shields from sets, and shields from scribing coupled with ult gen sets (for stupid high barrier up time) means groups have 40k perma shields on at all times, on top of insanely high healing and max hp. The only way to kill a group like that is to run rush to lock them down for longer. If your group doesn't run rush you have no shot at killing other groups, this is a big reason why every single group runs this, you are pretty much forced to. Also running rush allows you to build tankier. When you lock a group of pugs down for that long you don't really need that much damage to secure kills so you can stack more defensively, this set has pretty much trivialized bombing pugs for groups. Honestly I think this meta has driven a lot of players away. A lot of ball groups have also left (less pugs to farm and gvgs are boring and stalematey), but it's not as noticeable because the pug population is way down also.

NxJoeyD

I agree with the CC immunity and a visual telegraph.

I just created a post on RoA / Scribed pulls + Vicious Death. It’s a zero skill kill farm that creates the very situation it was designed to curb.

I read a lot of the replies here and none of the counter play suggestions make any sense in real-world gameplay.

First, it’s not always ball groups running RoA (and VD). It’s single individuals that can create their own victim group with this set. Remember, a lot of PvP objectives are area based so even though we do spread out 12m is an absolutely huge area and can put you out of range of the needed objective. It’s not always a ball group causing this issue.

As for “blocking”, sure; we can all block and all should. But as others have pointed out proper timing of actions in this game and any game are reliant on cues; either visual or audio. This is game design 101. It’s not as if ESO doesn’t have telegraphs so the fact that one isn’t included with this set is bonkers. Really, this is even less of a viable counter play when you remember that RoA’s effective time from proc is only 0.8 seconds but GCD is a full second meaning that unless one is standing, bone idle, waiting around; chances are GCD is going to inhibit a proper block in time even IF we were to see someone use an absolute that MIGHT proc it.

Suggesting that one simply “block for a second” whenever anyone approaches you is incredibly unrealistic.

There are ways to adjust sets like this (and VD) so that they apply as intended, to curb zergs, without an all out nerf.

Yes, I know that persistent heals, shields, and more importantly, mitigation, are a big problem in PvP; but the answer isn’t indiscriminate bombs. It’s too broad and needs to be dialed in a bit.

cuddles_with_wroble

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else.

If you want something nerfed go after VD or the over inflated buff sets that turn them into mini emperors

The pull wouldn’t be so annoying if VD didn’t hit you for 30k damage

xylena_lazarow

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

cuddles_with_wroble

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

I don’t know what to tell you mate, you gotta learn to block it. There’s a reason this set is only strong against pugs… they don’t block it.

I almost never get pulled by rush but I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

NxJoeyD

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

I don’t know what to tell you mate, you gotta learn to block it. There’s a reason this set is only strong against pugs… they don’t block it.

I almost never get pulled by rush but I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

IMO that comes more down to RNG since RoA only has an 0.8 second delay meanwhile the time it takes to go from an attack or ability to block is 0.5 seconds. … And we think with existing server latency we can consistently rely on a window of only 0.3 seconds as a mitigation strategy?? That seems .. unrealistic.

Especially when we all know that the animation associated with this set is bugged and often doesn’t display, resulting in no telegraph to block.

Like others have said, even without VD that sort of CC, especially without immunity, need some sense of balance, a consistent and reliable counter that every and any player has access to and the success or failure is determined by proper skill; but that’s not what we have here.

We can’t tell people to block a set proc with a bugged at best telegraph and a “realistic” 0.3 second response window.

cuddles_with_wroble

NxJoeyD wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

I don’t know what to tell you mate, you gotta learn to block it. There’s a reason this set is only strong against pugs… they don’t block it.

I almost never get pulled by rush but I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

IMO that comes more down to RNG since RoA only has an 0.8 second delay meanwhile the time it takes to go from an attack or ability to block is 0.5 seconds. … And we think with existing server latency we can consistently rely on a window of only 0.3 seconds as a mitigation strategy?? That seems .. unrealistic.

Especially when we all know that the animation associated with this set is bugged and often doesn’t display, resulting in no telegraph to block.

Like others have said, even without VD that sort of CC, especially without immunity, need some sense of balance, a consistent and reliable counter that every and any player has access to and the success or failure is determined by proper skill; but that’s not what we have here.

We can’t tell people to block a set proc with a bugged at best telegraph and a “realistic” 0.3 second response window.

If you see someone gap close… then block

If it’s lagging than don’t stand near the Zerg

If your in the Zerg, your gonna die with or without rush of agony bcs your in a Zerg.

I think people forget that even without rush of agony the ball groups are still going to 1 shot everyone, they will still be unkillable, and they will still blow up the Zerg with 0 effort.

That’s my point, nerfing rush doesn’t impact the power of the ball groups. They don’t need the pull, they use it bcs it’s less work. You are gonna get exploded either way bcs they are 12 mini emperors

xylena_lazarow

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

Just block bro ... /s

If you're on PC/NA you can come to BGs and see how I deal with RoA users. As I've mentioned before, I could have the best performance in the lobby, win the match, but even one single RoA proc that decides to lag, bug, not play any queue or telegraph, etc... that's enough for me to log out and be done with ESO for that day. Others are done forever.

If RoA users want to play the skill issue game: you can bomb without RoA. No playstyle needs automation.

xylena_lazarow

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

That’s my point, nerfing rush doesn’t impact the power of the ball groups.

Yes, it does. Maybe you weren't able to do this, but before Rushing Agony, I could get in close to ball groups, run inside them, circle around them, and eventually pick off the guy that gets separated. Now? I can't risk getting within 41m of the ball group because I can instantly die at any millisecond due to the insane range of Rushing Agony. The 22m gap closer + 12m pull + needing a few extra to deal with lag = turning what should be an 8m radius into a 41m radius.

Joy_Division

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

I don’t know what to tell you mate, you gotta learn to block it. There’s a reason this set is only strong against pugs… they don’t block it.

I almost never get pulled by rush but I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

Just block doesn't work if the ball group is heading to your direction because you will be immobile, surrounded by them, and killed anyway.

Just block doesn't work when those pugs who dont block get pulled in and kill you anyway. As you yourself have pointed out.

When you perform the supposed proper counter and get killed anyway "OFTEN", that's a clear sign its overpowered and making the game unfun,

NxJoeyD

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Rush of agony isn’t the issue it’s everything else

Oh it's definitely the issue. The worst one. Rushing Agony into fear stun into ult dump doesn't require VD to be instant game over out of nowhere, with the double stun effect and displacement screwing up whatever you were doing even if you have the sweatlord reflexes to counter it. Vanilla fear stuns and ult dumps are clearly not an issue, it's the automated proc set that breaks every rule in the game in a terribly misguided attempt to make the bombing playstyle more accessible.

I don’t know what to tell you mate, you gotta learn to block it. There’s a reason this set is only strong against pugs… they don’t block it.

I almost never get pulled by rush but I do die to VD procs due to others being pulled near to me OFTEN

IMO that comes more down to RNG since RoA only has an 0.8 second delay meanwhile the time it takes to go from an attack or ability to block is 0.5 seconds. … And we think with existing server latency we can consistently rely on a window of only 0.3 seconds as a mitigation strategy?? That seems .. unrealistic.

Especially when we all know that the animation associated with this set is bugged and often doesn’t display, resulting in no telegraph to block.

Like others have said, even without VD that sort of CC, especially without immunity, need some sense of balance, a consistent and reliable counter that every and any player has access to and the success or failure is determined by proper skill; but that’s not what we have here.

We can’t tell people to block a set proc with a bugged at best telegraph and a “realistic” 0.3 second response window.

If you see someone gap close… then block

If it’s lagging than don’t stand near the Zerg

If your in the Zerg, your gonna die with or without rush of agony bcs your in a Zerg.

I think people forget that even without rush of agony the ball groups are still going to 1 shot everyone, they will still be unkillable, and they will still blow up the Zerg with 0 effort.

That’s my point, nerfing rush doesn’t impact the power of the ball groups. They don’t need the pull, they use it bcs it’s less work. You are gonna get exploded either way bcs they are 12 mini emperors

That’s what I’m getting at .. a NB you won’t see coming, obviously, and a ton of them are running this set as a bomb build.”


You don’t have to be in a Zerg, RoA can create a bomb group without players being in a Zerg group given its ridiculous AoE.

It’s not as though it’s realistic for players in PvP to stand more than 12m apart; just because I’m within 12m of my healer and one other teammate doesn’t make us a Zerg but it does make us susceptible to a RoA cheap bomb from a stealth NB who creeps up on you.

You can’t block that because there’s nothing to see coming. If we’re in combat, and get snuck up on by a stealth player, then blocking isn’t really a solution is it?

Again, it’s not always “ball groups” abusing the set; it doesn’t have to be. We all know what to do with ball groups, that’s not the issue.

The issue are individual players abusing RoA to create easy, no skill, group kills against players who aren’t zerging.

xylena_lazarow

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The issue are individual players abusing RoA to create easy, no skill, group kills against players who aren’t zerging.

This is another really good point about how messed up RoA is. It's actively bad into tightly stacked cross heals, so it doesn't even punish zerging or ball grouping. RoA instead punishes spread out randoms who don't have any cross heals on them, the opposite of zergs or balls. RoA also makes VD effectively hit spread out targets, another rule broken.

There are zero players who need an automated crutch to help them beat spread out randoms.