So my trade guild is closing...

BlueRaven

WitchyKiki wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I left my high-traffic trade guild because the dues/requirements did not lower despite the economy taking a nosedive. The truth is, that ESO was suffering from inflation that was speculative. I had reported countless members on high-traffic guilds for massively buying items to post at higher prices. Some people had 220M on sales PER WEEK by manipulating the market.

The problem right now is people are still operating under the rules of the old economy, and while I benefited greatly from it I'm also glad the economy finally corrected itself.

The high trade guilds will continue to dominate for a while til the cash runs dry. It will take a few more months, but hopefully your guild will come back.

why would you report someone for that? how is that against the TOS?

I was reporting them to guild leaders because thats a tactic that is frowned upon on some guilds. Said person was also trying to rip me off by telling me to list certain items lower, when I did and they instantly sold, I realized they bought it, and saw them list the items much higher. So yes, I reported them to the guild leaders who promptly kicked these people out.

that context was something needed in your first post it just sounded like you was randomly reporting people for flipping. yeah, that person was clearly actually scamming you which is different from flipping.

Well, they were flipping. This type of behavior contributes to the type of inflation we were seeing in the game. Flipping is anti-consumer friendly and detrimental to the economy.

Flipping the vast majority of the time is buying items listed below market price and relisting them at market price. That doesn't contribute to inflation.

Except... that it does. However, what you are describing is not flipping, its opportunistic buying - find lower items to list at the current market value.

You’ve had to do multiple clarifications on your original post, to the point I am completely confused by it.

Your guild is/was against flipping? Almost unenforceable rule.

They were against flipping yet required dues? Again odd.

And this happened across multiple guilds? (You did say guilds, as in plural.) Who were you reporting them to? And how were you tracking this across multiple guilds?

220M per week? Keep in mind I believe the gold cap is still 999,999,999 (if I am not mistaken). So yeah, I am sure they have expenses and all, but that much gold movement, while still being limited to the amount of items you can post at any one time, I am finding it difficult to see this play out in game. Are we talking multiple accounts? When do they have time to actually play the game and not just sit at the bank?

And all of this with the economy taking “a nose dive” and you could not keep up in dues? But other people were making 220M? Maybe instead of reporting people, you should have been asking for advice.

What is going on with this guild?

Danikat

I'm in two social guilds which usually have traders but have no sales requirements, you don't have to use the trader at all if you don't want to. (The only rule is you can't offer things for sale in guild chat, if you want to sell to guild members you put it in the store, if you want to give it away you put it in the bank.)

One doesn't have a trader this week because they lost the bid for their usual spot. I don't know if they bid on any others but they obviously didn't get one. But it's not the first time that's happened and likely won't be the last, I'm sure they'll find somewhere affordable sooner or later.

The other still has their usual spot. The message of the day says sales are down so they need more donations to keep the space, but I've been in that guild for years and every week there's some reason more donations are needed, the reason changes from time to time but the ask is always the same. (Importantly these are genuinely optional donations, and if not enough people were donating or using the guild store they'd stop including it as a guild activity, so there is demand from members to have it available.)

I haven't noticed much change in price for the things I'm selling (mostly cooking materials, some other materials and whatever duplicate motifs/recipes I get) but I always scan both guilds with TTC after updating my own sales and I've noticed there's fewer pages to scan and so less items being sold overall in the last few weeks. I'm not sure if it's because people aren't updating their listings as often or because fewer people are using the guild store, but I'm not surprised overall sales are down as a result.

Also whether prices going down is good or bad always depends on whether you're looking to sell for a profit or buy things you need. People who worry about "the economy" always seem to be sellers, so of course from their perspective a good economy is one where prices are constantly rising and they can always make more profit on their sales, but that can't last forever even in a virtual world with an incomplete economy where money literally appears out of nowhere (and also disappears to nowhere in some cases). I think it's normal for prices to drop sometimes and I don't think it's automatically a bad thing for the game as a whole.

I_killed_Vivec

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Case in point, the Wisteria flower boxes that everyone got for free being listed as high as 35k. That's rampant greed and price gouging. And when the lower priced items get snatched up and relisted at the 35k price point, you have inflation, created solely by the seller setting that price.

Maybe I'm not your usual buyer, but I tend to look for a deal myself - and there are enough tools available to help me.

Looking at the example of flower boxes, if the current average price is 35k and a "flipper" (for want of a better term) goes round buying all the instances priced less than 35k then this will drive the average sales price down.

[Note that this will also happen regardless who buys the item(s) - if I get there before the flipper then I will buy at the less than average price too.]

If they then relist at 35k, I'll see it's above average and I won't buy.

If they list at less than 35k (in order to get a quick sale, say), then this too will drive the average price down.

So flippers, particularly if they want a quick sale to get the readies for the next flip, actually bring the price down!


By the way, if someone is prepared to buy something that "everyone got for free" for 35k then selling at that amount isn't rampant greed or price gouging. It's simply applying market forces to determine the value of something that in essence has no value. You tell me how much it should sell for... Nothing, because I didn't pay for it? 1g? That's already infinitely more than I paid for it. 1k? 5k? The price you want to pay for it? Or the price that I can sell it for because that is how much someone is prepared to pay?

Wolfkeks

@BlueRaven just because this video was being recommended to me; gold cap is 2.1 billion (for some reason)

https://youtu.be/TvQrqkymfl8?si=-bAug9FMBZhHqy4R

Zodiarkslayer

@BlueRaven
The maximum amount of currency you can carry is 7FFFFFFF or 1111111111111111111111111111111 in binary, not the complete 32, just 31 ones. That is 2147483647 gold. I am pretty sure its that number, but I am not enough of a geek to know why. 😅

Above 200 million in sales is rare, but its possible. I agree, hitting that every week is probably inflated for reasons of ego. Hitting such a number once takes a lot of preparation.
And that is just revenue, not profits.

BlueRaven

Wolfkeks wrote: »

@BlueRaven just because this video was being recommended to me; gold cap is 2.1 billion (for some reason)

https://youtu.be/TvQrqkymfl8?si=-bAug9FMBZhHqy4R

Ok. That is interesting thank you.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@BlueRaven
The maximum amount of currency you can carry is 7FFFFFFF or 1111111111111111111111111111111 in binary, not the complete 32, just 31 ones. That is 2147483647 gold. I am pretty sure its that number, but I am not enough of a geek to know why. 😅

Above 200 million in sales is rare, but its possible. I agree, hitting that every week is probably inflated for reasons of ego. Hitting such a number once takes a lot of preparation.
And that is just revenue, not profits.

I know a lot of high end traders, I know they like to show off the amount they make (and I have not asked them about this post) but I think 200+m per week would have definitely been bragged about.

That’s why I keep scratching my head about the claims made. Even making 10% of max gold limit per week sounds incredible.

CGPsaint

LikiLoki wrote: »

I did not notice that many guilds were closed on the European server. Of course, now is a difficult time for trading activities, but everyone has faced this, which means that no one has received an unfair advantage in the fight for kiosks. There is no need to stop activities. Why don't you reduce your appetites: a kiosk in the thieves' hideout costs only about 1 million

Let's not pretend that winning a bid on a hideout trader is the solution. Selling 5% - 10% of what you're used to selling isn't going to solve any problems. The vast majority of my mail these days is expired listings instead of sales.

reazea

I didn't lose my trading guilds, but I had to leave 2 of the 3 trade guilds I was in because I just don't participate in buying/selling any longer. The effort no longer justifies the time investment.

This is just another way in which ESO has shot itself in the foot big time since and including U35.

WitchyKiki

@BlueRaven

Theres nothing to be confused about, you're overthinking it. What even? ....I saw 220M on the flippers sales.

edit: Just gonna take a step back from this thread, can't believe I have to justify what I saw with my own eyes lol

Northwold

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I left my high-traffic trade guild because the dues/requirements did not lower despite the economy taking a nosedive. The truth is, that ESO was suffering from inflation that was speculative. I had reported countless members on high-traffic guilds for massively buying items to post at higher prices. Some people had 220M on sales PER WEEK by manipulating the market.

The problem right now is people are still operating under the rules of the old economy, and while I benefited greatly from it I'm also glad the economy finally corrected itself.

The high trade guilds will continue to dominate for a while til the cash runs dry. It will take a few more months, but hopefully your guild will come back.

why would you report someone for that? how is that against the TOS?

I was reporting them to guild leaders because thats a tactic that is frowned upon on some guilds. Said person was also trying to rip me off by telling me to list certain items lower, when I did and they instantly sold, I realized they bought it, and saw them list the items much higher. So yes, I reported them to the guild leaders who promptly kicked these people out.

that context was something needed in your first post it just sounded like you was randomly reporting people for flipping. yeah, that person was clearly actually scamming you which is different from flipping.

Well, they were flipping. This type of behavior contributes to the type of inflation we were seeing in the game. Flipping is anti-consumer friendly and detrimental to the economy.

Flipping the vast majority of the time is buying items listed below market price and relisting them at market price. That doesn't contribute to inflation.

A bit confused here: so a buyer arriving late pays more to a middleman rather than buying directly from the original seller at a lower price. How is this not inflation when enough people do this?

I think they're speaking ESOnomics (namely, whatever the player wants to be true is true, eg writing circular arguments about "market price" as if it is a static metric and therefore claiming no impact on inflation). The player is actually describing price maintenance, which prevents price competition from operating properly to determine the competitive market price.

SickleCider

People on console are struggling. We didn't need the drastic correction that PC allegedly did but we got it anyway because of parity. A lot of people have just given up and walked away from the market.

(Edited to remove a slight side tangent.)

Nharimlur_Finor

TybaltKaine wrote: »

That's a bad faith argument and you know it. There is competition. Just because the popular markets are flooded by the larger guilds doesn't mean that competition doesn't exist.

If all the stores in the neighborhood are using the same prices, it doesn't matter which one the customers choose as the "competition" is colluding to mark things the same way. The customer loses and the scale tips ever higher as the markets set the prices higher and higher.

In that scenario, the customer loses, and that is exactly what TTC and add-ons of their ilk allow.

You and I both know that on the surface TTC shows aggregate pricing and assumes the user will adjust based on number of items sold and such. But that doesn't happen. The average user skews the number toward the higher end because profit is the end goal, never taking into account that the ridiculous price point is the outlier and only present in minority of listings.

Case in point, the Wisteria flower boxes that everyone got for free being listed as high as 35k. That's rampant greed and price gouging. And when the lower priced items get snatched up and relisted at the 35k price point, you have inflation, created solely by the seller setting that price.

Blaming the customer is low hanging fruit at best and baiting at worst.

Edit for spelling.

This is a system where the only pricing available is based on the sales history of the item.
It's always the buyer that sets the actual pricing averages.

You are free to report any breaches of TOS.

freespirit

WitchyKiki wrote: »

@BlueRaven

Theres nothing to be confused about, you're overthinking it. What even? ....I saw 220M on the flippers sales.

edit: Just gonna take a step back from this thread, can't believe I have to justify what I saw with my own eyes lol

I'm with @WitchyKiki on this.

One of my guilds has a section for leading sellers and amounts they sold for on their MotD, 200 million plus in a week has been achieved and by different people.

I would post a screenshot but there's too many names to hide and I'm terrible at editing!

JiubLeRepenti

I'm planning to leave my top 3 merchant guilds on PC/EU as well.

The 500k sales per week target is achievable, but the method I used to make money (crafting dailies) is no longer worth it.

Spending an hour a day doing dailies on 20 characters and an additional 2-3 hours on weekends for master writs and surveys was manageable when I was making around 5-6M per week. Now that the earnings have dropped to about 2M per week and are continuing to decline, it’s no longer viable.

I don’t think we’ve hit rock bottom yet. Personally, I foresee the game facing serious issues in the coming months or years, including potential declines in player numbers (we already see it in Steam charts, and don't tell me it's only due to covid pandemic) and dissatisfaction within the community.

Reverb

I’ve been in 4 trade guilds that closed over the years. It’s not new that major shifts in the economy or trader bids cause guilds to fold.

Things to seem pretty dire right now though and sales are still depressed even in high traffic traders, while bids haven’t yet dropped. There is an oversaturation of “safe” items like top tier mats in all guilds, keeping prices low. The 14 day sales window makes people less likely to sell high value but low turnover items. Most of us aren’t willing to eat the listing fee every 2 weeks on a 2-3m gold piece that will take a month or two to sell. But trader prices haven’t gone down.

Something’s got to give but I think it will get worse before it gets better.

Pelanora

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

I'm planning to leave my top 3 merchant guilds on PC/EU as well.

The 500k sales per week target is achievable, but the method I used to make money (crafting dailies) is no longer worth it.

Spending an hour a day doing dailies on 20 characters and an additional 2-3 hours on weekends for master writs and surveys was manageable when I was making around 5-6M per week. Now that the earnings have dropped to about 2M per week and are continuing to decline, it’s no longer viable.

I don’t think we’ve hit rock bottom yet. Personally, I foresee the game facing serious issues in the coming months or years, including potential declines in player numbers (we already see it in Steam charts, and don't tell me it's only due to covid pandemic) and dissatisfaction within the community.

Yea because the cost of living in tamriel is just outrageous with the high mortgages and rates and taxes and insurance and fees to dungeon owners, how are you breaking even on earning only 2M a week. Did you have to let the servants go yet?

WolfCombatPet

darvaria wrote: »

Or is it the 14 day sale listing?

I tried the 14 days thing, but I lost so much money. If I don't check the mailbox before 14 days are up, the gold I made from sales vanished into thin air.
I gave up on ESO traders. Both buying/selling. Since I can't sell, I don't have the gold to buy either.


I didn't play ESO for a long time after the announcement that said we were getting Home Tours instead of houses getting any kind of item limit upgrade. Left me feeling hopeless as housing is my endgame and the whole reason I bother to make gold. Knowing that I won't be able to build the things I want because the homes I like are stuck below 700 item slot... I gave up on ESO housing. Gave up on trying to make gold. I'm not logging in frequently enough to be checking a mailbox within 14 days.

Players all have their own reasons for the decrease in economy activity in ESO. It feels like lately the devs have let down players in numerous aspects of the game.

Couple that with FFXIV and WoW both having expansions this summer while ESO only had letdowns. That's rough.

All we got with Gold Road was Scribing. And Scribing costs means players are hoarding their gold instead of buying things on traders.

DenverRalphy

WolfCombatPet wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

Or is it the 14 day sale listing?

I tried the 14 days thing, but I lost so much money. If I don't check the mailbox before 14 days are up, the gold I made from sales vanished into thin air.
I gave up on ESO traders. Both buying/selling. Since I can't sell, I don't have the gold to buy either.

Why would you have sales profits sitting in your mail for over 14 days?

If you're not logged in for 14 days, then you aren't very much of a trader since you're not logging in to maintain and restock your trader slots. And if you do log in to restock, then why on earth would you just ignore the gold sitting in your mailbox? That's on you if you're just not paying attention.

I get that sometimes real life can take precedent to the game. But if you're going to be out for 14 days or more, it's not unreasonable that you'd prepare for it by clearing your shelves before you go. And if it's something more dire that kept you out that long, then the last thing you're really worried about is lost coin in a game.

Is the 14 days annoying? Sure. Is it robbing players of money? Nope.

WolfCombatPet

DenverRalphy wrote: »

WolfCombatPet wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

Or is it the 14 day sale listing?

I tried the 14 days thing, but I lost so much money. If I don't check the mailbox before 14 days are up, the gold I made from sales vanished into thin air.
I gave up on ESO traders. Both buying/selling. Since I can't sell, I don't have the gold to buy either.

Why would you have sales profits sitting in your mail for over 14 days?

If you're not logged in for 14 days, then you aren't very much of a trader since you're not logging in to maintain and restock your trader slots. And if you do log in to restock, then why on earth would you just ignore the gold sitting in your mailbox? That's on you if you're just not paying attention.

I get that sometimes real life can take precedent to the game. But if you're going to be out for 14 days or more, it's not unreasonable that you'd prepare for it by clearing your shelves before you go. And if it's something more dire that kept you out that long, then the last thing you're really worried about is lost coin in a game.

Is the 14 days annoying? Sure. Is it robbing players of money? Nope.

I used to be a trader. Full time. Logging in every day.
With the housing announcement, I no longer have that sort of enthusiasm for ESO.
Hence, not logging in within 14 days. I no longer consider myself a trader.

My point is that the ESO economy can't exist with traders alone. You need buyers for the stuff you are selling.
But now that casual players aren't bothering with posting their own stuff for sale, we don't have the gold to buy things either.

AND there are more casual players now than ever before with the number of people ESO has letdown for one reason or another.

There is nothing "dire" that is keeping me from logging in within 14 days. It's sheer unenthusiasm for ESO after feeling like devs can't be bothered to give us an update on something players have been asking for... for years.

14 days to claim mail if you are a consistent ESO player is not a big deal at all. But what about casual players? We're no longer posting stuff for sale -> we no longer have gold to spend -> Who is going to buy your stuff?

FlopsyPrince

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It just takes money from those who didn't know better and puts it in the hands of the ones who know a better price. Fine if the lower priced seller just wanted a quick sale, but the current system hides the true optimal price from many players, especially on console. That is not good game design.

• The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

This is completely false.

This game is a pure example of this. You have to go to many different guild vendors to find the "normal" price for anything, especially something that is not common. A central auction house would make that data immediately available. Choosing either is a "game design choice" and thus has a major impact on some flipping.

That doesn't mean flipping can't or doesn't happen on games with a Central AH, but ESO makes it much more profitable and easier for those willing to focus on that part of the game to do so since most people will not devote the time to find the true price of something they earn (and can resell) in game.

TaSheen

Again.... "tilting at windmills"....

katanagirl1

TaSheen wrote: »

Again.... "tilting at windmills"....

Maybe on PC it is different .

On console the capital traders (even after the “takeover” a few weeks ago), are more filled with no-name guilds with little to offer for sale. Going to Alinor, Rimmen, and Leyawiin is a complete waste of time most often now. Nothing on my list even for sale.

I have gold to spend for items that are priced appropriately and available.

I am actually keeping most of my gold now, nothing worth buying.

NoSoup

What prices are dropping? On PC|NA everything seems as expensive as ever

joergino

NoSoup wrote: »

What prices are dropping? On PC|NA everything seems as expensive as ever

Same on PC EU for standard stuff like basic crafting materials. New motifs are as expensive as such things have always been, too.

Nharimlur_Finor

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It just takes money from those who didn't know better and puts it in the hands of the ones who know a better price. Fine if the lower priced seller just wanted a quick sale, but the current system hides the true optimal price from many players, especially on console. That is not good game design.

• The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

This is completely false.

This game is a pure example of this. You have to go to many different guild vendors to find the "normal" price for anything, especially something that is not common. A central auction house would make that data immediately available. Choosing either is a "game design choice" and thus has a major impact on some flipping.

That doesn't mean flipping can't or doesn't happen on games with a Central AH, but ESO makes it much more profitable and easier for those willing to focus on that part of the game to do so since most people will not devote the time to find the true price of something they earn (and can resell) in game.

The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

There is nothing in the Guild system; and nothing in the default banking interface supplied in ESO, that enables, supports, or facilitates the idea of flipping.

Bradyfjord

LaintalAy wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Imagine citing buyers as the cause of inflation as opposed to price gouging and market manipulation.

What rot.

A fundamental principle of a 'market economy' is competition.

You can't have competition if the customer won't look for a better price.

This is why Amazon and Walmart are so successful.

FlopsyPrince

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It just takes money from those who didn't know better and puts it in the hands of the ones who know a better price. Fine if the lower priced seller just wanted a quick sale, but the current system hides the true optimal price from many players, especially on console. That is not good game design.

• The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

This is completely false.

This game is a pure example of this. You have to go to many different guild vendors to find the "normal" price for anything, especially something that is not common. A central auction house would make that data immediately available. Choosing either is a "game design choice" and thus has a major impact on some flipping.

That doesn't mean flipping can't or doesn't happen on games with a Central AH, but ESO makes it much more profitable and easier for those willing to focus on that part of the game to do so since most people will not devote the time to find the true price of something they earn (and can resell) in game.

The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

There is nothing in the Guild system; and nothing in the default banking interface supplied in ESO, that enables, supports, or facilitates the idea of flipping.

I see you didn't read what I wrote. Normal players cannot find out the true value of something. That is a game design issue.

MJallday

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

I'm planning to leave my top 3 merchant guilds on PC/EU as well.

The 500k sales per week target is achievable, but the method I used to make money (crafting dailies) is no longer worth it.

Spending an hour a day doing dailies on 20 characters and an additional 2-3 hours on weekends for master writs and surveys was manageable when I was making around 5-6M per week. Now that the earnings have dropped to about 2M per week and are continuing to decline, it’s no longer viable.

I don’t think we’ve hit rock bottom yet. Personally, I foresee the game facing serious issues in the coming months or years, including potential declines in player numbers (we already see it in Steam charts, and don't tell me it's only due to covid pandemic) and dissatisfaction within the community.

“Sales targets”
“Quotas “
“Guild fees”

And this is why I’m glad on Xbox this doesn’t really exist. There’s a couple of trading guilds but tbh there’s still so much choice it’s irrelevant

It’s quite simple to solve this entire mess

1. Maximum 30 items can be sold per month. So you’ll have to price competitively
2. Every item you sell is Bind on Pickup, so can’t be flipped
3. Guild traders can only be used once in a row. So you can’t have the same one the next time.

That should solve a few issues

Pelanora

Ugh. Regulation to resolve market failure due to poor information. No thanks.

Nharimlur_Finor

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It just takes money from those who didn't know better and puts it in the hands of the ones who know a better price. Fine if the lower priced seller just wanted a quick sale, but the current system hides the true optimal price from many players, especially on console. That is not good game design.

• The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

This is completely false.

This game is a pure example of this. You have to go to many different guild vendors to find the "normal" price for anything, especially something that is not common. A central auction house would make that data immediately available. Choosing either is a "game design choice" and thus has a major impact on some flipping.

That doesn't mean flipping can't or doesn't happen on games with a Central AH, but ESO makes it much more profitable and easier for those willing to focus on that part of the game to do so since most people will not devote the time to find the true price of something they earn (and can resell) in game.

The ESO game design has no effect on the presence of flipping.

There is nothing in the Guild system; and nothing in the default banking interface supplied in ESO, that enables, supports, or facilitates the idea of flipping.

I see you didn't read what I wrote. Normal players cannot find out the true value of something. That is a game design issue.

I read what you wrote. I have no idea what you are on about anymore.