How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

joergino

LaintalAy wrote: »

thinkaboutit wrote: »

How was the voice of the customer captured on this decision? Or is this a cost savings endeavor. @ZOS_Kevin

Unless you have Microsoft shares, you aren't a customer; you're a resource.

While I understand what you mean, this is not completely correct. A shareholder is an owner, not a customer. Shareholders suck out the money that is sucked from customers.

davidtk

Syldras wrote: »

If you scroll down, there's a rating banner on the lower left of the site:



Obviously "mature audiences" have to be protected from swear words.

Interesting, its is by country. My have PEGI 18 so for Adults.

Syldras

davidtk wrote: »

Interesting, its is by country. My have PEGI 18 so for Adults.

That makes it even funnier, as the one that shows to me is the American one, while I live in Germany, and both my browser's as well as my system's language settings are set to German. If it's that, I should either get PEGI or USK.

Syldras

Ah, I see. It simply seems to depend on the forum language setting (I have set it to English US). Not IP, not system language or whatever.

If I change it to German, I get even more different symbols

Pelanora

M.

Games with this rating contain content that the ESRB believes is suitable for ages 17 and over, including intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, frequent use of strong language, drug use, and nudity.


So the game can have it.... but the players cannot.

I_killed_Vivec

Pelanora wrote: »

M.

Games with this rating contain content that the ESRB believes is suitable for ages 17 and over, including intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, frequent use of strong language, drug use, and nudity.


So the game can have it.... but the players cannot.

No nudity?! So I have to go and get dressed?

Vivec's quivering backside! Whatever next?!

Pelanora

I always imagined vivec as quite fit. Do you think it quivers? Not buns of steel? Maybe ripples....?

I_killed_Vivec

Pelanora wrote: »

I always imagined vivec as quite fit. Do you think it quivers? Not buns of steel? Maybe ripples....?

It's what the merchant Selenor says when you meet him: "Vivec's quivering backside, not you again!".

Then use the Fighter's Guild Intimidate, and relieve him of all of his goods!

Don't feel bad about it, he understands how it goes down...

Pelanora

https://www.zenimax.com/en/legal/privacy-policy


Subject to the conditions set out in applicable law, Users in the European Union/European Economic Area, United Kingdom, and Brazil (as well as in other jurisdictions where similar rights apply) have the following rights regards our processing of their personal information:

Right not to be subject to automated decision-making: to not be subject to a decision when it is based on automatic processing if it produces a legal effect or similarly significantly affects you, unless it is necessary for entering into or performing a contract between us.

Right to withdraw your consent: where you have consented, to withdraw your consent to our processing of your personal information, without affecting the lawfulness of our processing prior to the withdrawal of your consent. Brazilian Users also have the right to be informed about the consequences of denying or withdrawing consent.

Right to lodge a complaint: to lodge a complaint with a supervisory authority if you believe our processing of your personal information infringes the law.

Juomuuri

The non-English languages concern is real, since for example, saying "I fell" in Finnish will be censored with the profanity filter because it "contains" a Spanish insult. Despite being a normal thing you say to your friends when you fall from a cliff or platform... I don't know if I can write the phrase here due to that "meaning", and this makes me wonder how many other words in my mother tongue might get me permabanned? Me and my friend who I do dungeons with often write Finnish wordplay to replace certain words into something naughty in Finnish (we both concent to this), and I wonder if this will get us both banned? In our two person group chat in which both parties concent to funny wordplay?

Elsonso

Pelanora wrote: »

M.

Games with this rating contain content that the ESRB believes is suitable for ages 17 and over, including intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, frequent use of strong language, drug use, and nudity.


So the game can have it.... but the players cannot.

Yes, those NPCs are an unruly bunch. Best to keep your distance.

Juomuuri wrote: »

The non-English languages concern is real, since for example, saying "I fell" in Finnish will be censored with the profanity filter because it "contains" a Spanish insult. Despite being a normal thing you say to your friends when you fall from a cliff or platform... I don't know if I can write the phrase here due to that "meaning", and this makes me wonder how many other words in my mother tongue might get me permabanned? Me and my friend who I do dungeons with often write Finnish wordplay to replace certain words into something naughty in Finnish (we both concent to this), and I wonder if this will get us both banned? In our two person group chat in which both parties concent to funny wordplay?

This is why I think that an AI language filter would be better than the pattern matching filter that they are, or had been, using. Pattern matching just removes all of the spaces and looks for a series of characters that match a known naughty word. AI has the ability to take previous and following statements and match them against things training that includes things that people say. When it detects that naughty things are being said, then there is a match.

However, all good AI policies should include a "no action before human review" because AIs are not actually 'intelligent'. They aren't 'artificial' either, if you think about it.

I_killed_Vivec

Elsonso wrote: »

However, all good AI policies should include a "no action before human review" because AIs are not actually 'intelligent'. They aren't 'artificial' either, if you think about it.

Not only that but the results of a human review can be fed back into the machine learning so that it can hone its skills and stop making obvious Scunthorpe errors.

But that's an expensive process, requiring human involvement. Remember that the parent company (Microsoft) is pouring literally billions into AI precisely so that human involvement can be dispensed with, so they might not be inclined to fund the human oversight.

In fact I'm sure they are working on the basis of "ban first (AI), review later (human)".

Elsonso

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

In fact I'm sure they are working on the basis of "ban first, review later".

It would not surprise me in the least.

JimFord047

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I_killed_Vivec

JimFord047 wrote: »

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

My bold...

A private company can moderate you to hell and back if they want - they make the rules, you agree to play by them.

Congress doesn't come into it (how come Americans can never get this?)

SilverBride

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

JimFord047 wrote: »

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

My bold...

A private company can moderate you to hell and back if they want - they make the rules, you agree to play by them.

Congress doesn't come into it (how come Americans can never get this?)

I'm American and I get this.

Bammlschwamml

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

JimFord047 wrote: »

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

My bold...

A private company can moderate you to hell and back if they want - they make the rules, you agree to play by them.

Congress doesn't come into it (how come Americans can never get this?)

Because it doesn't make sense.

spartaxoxo

Bammlschwamml wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

JimFord047 wrote: »

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

My bold...

A private company can moderate you to hell and back if they want - they make the rules, you agree to play by them.

Congress doesn't come into it (how come Americans can never get this?)

Because it doesn't make sense.

Please note in the following reply I am using the word "you" as the royal you, not you or anyone else in this thread in particular. I am an American speaking America.

Your freedom of speech doesn't take away another's freedom of speech, freedom of association, and right to private property.

You are free to say what you want without the government tossing you in jail or other penalties.

And others are free to respond however they want. This can include not wanting anything to do with you anymore or expressing dislike for the things you've said. It can also mean removing you from their private property.

So, for example, a citizen could be mad about something I posted and write about it in their own blog. But, they don't get to go inside my house and force me to listen to them.

Likewise, the developers of this game don't get to control your opinion. But they don't have to host it on their own website. As long as Zeni aren't violating any relevant laws as a business, they retain full control over their own property. That's how it works in the US.

Syldras

Pelanora wrote: »

I always imagined vivec as quite fit. Do you think it quivers? Not buns of steel? Maybe ripples....?

If you wonder why I ever screenshotted this - because I found it funny that a statue of Vivec can have that, but player characters have to wear granny panties beneath loincloths, even if they just show a little leg...

Then again, this... is confusing

I_killed_Vivec

Syldras wrote: »

Then again, this... is confusing

Are you upskirting Vivvy?

Sleepsin

JimFord047 wrote: »

AI Moderation, on a United States Based Company , WILL BREACH the First Amendment of the constitution of the United States ......

"The First Amendment provides that Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise. It protects freedom of speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This isn't a free speech issue, this is a privacy issue. Privacy laws apply to companies even on platforms the company owns.

SilverBride

This furnishing leaves little to the imagination.

Syldras

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Are you upskirting Vivvy?

The better question is: Who by Mephala's right teat designs a statue that lets you look directly at the depicted person's God's crotch when walking by? It's basically right in front of your face if you stand next to it (somewhere in Necrom City, btw).

Edit: Yes, I know there are many depictions of nude Greek and Roman gods (and even a few emperors), but then it's usually, well, nude. Why add a loincloth and then choose a pose where it's completely useless?!

SilverBride

Sleepsin wrote: »

This isn't a free speech issue, this is a privacy issue. Privacy laws apply to companies even on platforms the company owns.

Privacy laws protect the consumer's private information, such as name, address, payment information. This doesn't fall into that category.

Not that I'm defending them monitoring our private conversations. I find it unnecessary and invasive and am disturbed by this.

Sepultura_13

AzuraFan wrote: »

It's hilarious that in a game that has us running around killing people, and that includes the thieves guild, the dark brotherhood, slavery, and necromancy, they are concerned about what's being said in private chat between consenting adults.

Well, AFAIK, the game rating is "M" for mature audiences, but that doesn't mean that everyone playing the game is 17+. I've seen past forum posts evidencing this fact. Therefore, one can't automatically assume that RP or private chat is between "consenting adults."

On another note, chronological age doesn't always equate to emotional maturity. Zone chat, guild chat, and "emoting" shows this, to me, on a regular basis - which is why I pretty much turned off all of that garbage a while ago.

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

Privacy laws protect the consumer's private information, such as name, address, payment information. This doesn't fall into that category.

Depends on legislation. In EU, chats and private messages are protected just as phone calls and letters are. I don't know about the US, of course.

Sepultura_13 wrote: »

Well, AFAIK, the game rating is "M" for mature audiences, but that doesn't mean that everyone playing the game is 17+. I've seen past forum posts evidencing this fact. Therefore, one can't automatically assume that RP or private chat is between "consenting adults."

If there's no consent, no matter how old the involved persons are, all messenges can be reported. It makes no sense to auto-censor everything just in case something bad might happen. And even more so for people who actually aren't even allowed to be here age-wise.

spartaxoxo

In the US, people under the age of 18 are able to play and buy M rated games. Any big game made by an American company with no restrictions on which servers they can join can and will have minors present.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In the US, people under the age of 18 are able to play and buy M rated games. Any big game made by an American company with no restrictions on which servers they can join can and will have minors present.

Can you clarify? Are these ratings only a suggestion? Because in some countries, stores are forbidden to sell media (videogames, music cds, movies) that are rated "for adults only" and the buyer has to show their passport to purchase.

SilverBride

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Privacy laws protect the consumer's private information, such as name, address, payment information. This doesn't fall into that category.

Depends on legislation. In EU, chats and private messages are protected just as phone calls and letters are. I don't know about the US, of course.

When we sign up for any private service we agree to their Terms of Service. If their Terms of Service says they have access to all our activity while using it then we have given them permission and have no legal recourse.

That doesn't mean that how they choose to use this permission is in the best interest of the company or their consumers. If they are indeed monitoring our private conversations they need to rethink this choice.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In the US, people under the age of 18 are able to play and buy M rated games. Any big game made by an American company with no restrictions on which servers they can join can and will have minors present.

Can you clarify? Are these ratings only a suggestion? Because in some countries, stores are forbidden to sell media (videogames, music cds, movies) that are rated "for adults only" and the buyer has to show their passport to purchase.

It's a bit stronger than just a suggestion as many retailers won't sell to people under the age 18. But, it doesn't have legal weight behind it. So, they nobody would get into any legal trouble over it. Retailers more or less started self-regulating on the issue. There are goods and media kids can't buy because it's sale is restricted to Adults only, but games rated M and under by the ESRB aren't included in that.

ETA

The ESRB isn't even a government entity here.