How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

sarahthes

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

manukartofanu

endorphinsplox wrote: »

This is exceptionally dangerous thinking. By their very nature, direct messages should be considered private. A group conversation should only be visible to people in the group, and so on and so forth. Reports do exist for a reason. Yes I agree current reporting seems ineffective, but 24/7 surveillance on private exchanges is far from an effective alternative. There are lots of ways to be toxic without triggering some useless chat filter. Banning toxicity doesn't stop it from existing or even remove it from the game.

I think this is misleading because of the use of the word 'private.' If you use the word 'confidential' instead, you'll see what is true and what is not.

Syldras

carthalis wrote: »

I've always assumed most online games log everything including private chats. I remember some 15 years ago the devs of Everquest 2 making a post that they had sent a huge data load of in-world chat including private chat/logs with all names removed to a university who were studying online interactions between players
Found a link to it as I was beginning to think I had imagined it
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/02/aaas-60tb-of-behavioral-data-the-everquest-2-server-logs/

Did they survive that without going insane?

brylars

Elsonso wrote: »

endorphinsplox wrote: »

This is exceptionally dangerous thinking. By their very nature, direct messages should be considered private. A group conversation should only be visible to people in the group, and so on and so forth. Reports do exist for a reason. Yes I agree current reporting seems ineffective, but 24/7 surveillance on private exchanges is far from an effective alternative. There are lots of ways to be toxic without triggering some useless chat filter. Banning toxicity doesn't stop it from existing or even remove it from the game.

You have to remember that badness can happen in direct messages just like it can in zone chat or other public places.

They must police these messages. The question is what they should be looking for, and how they go about determining whether something needs action on their part.

This is why I suggest they "auto warn" in the game chat via whisper. If they can "auto-ban" then they could do this.

Tandor

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Can anecdotally say I was using some less than wholesome language with my friends while playing this weekend and haven't gotten banned, so hopefully we're just looking at some sort of overzealous moderation glitch

even amongst private chats you agreed to a TOS when you started the game, if you're throwing out the real world equivalents of n'wah/s'wit/etc then you're bound to get banned. keep it civil in-game even amongst friends.

That's ridiculous. Zos isn't some moral police over private citizens consenting private chat.

If you want a private chat, don't log into someone else's software in order to have it. When you sign up to the TOS then they apply to the whole game., not just the bits you think they should apply to.

Pardon me, but I thought ESO was rated "M" for mature. No?

Indeed, but all that refers to is mature content in the game, it doesn't give players the freedom to ignore the TOS.

sarahthes

Tandor wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Can anecdotally say I was using some less than wholesome language with my friends while playing this weekend and haven't gotten banned, so hopefully we're just looking at some sort of overzealous moderation glitch

even amongst private chats you agreed to a TOS when you started the game, if you're throwing out the real world equivalents of n'wah/s'wit/etc then you're bound to get banned. keep it civil in-game even amongst friends.

That's ridiculous. Zos isn't some moral police over private citizens consenting private chat.

If you want a private chat, don't log into someone else's software in order to have it. When you sign up to the TOS then they apply to the whole game., not just the bits you think they should apply to.

Pardon me, but I thought ESO was rated "M" for mature. No?

Indeed, but all that refers to is mature content in the game, it doesn't give players the freedom to ignore the TOS.

It's not the TOS. It's the Code of Conduct that governs behaviour.

brylars

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

I think that you are missing the point here.

They encouraged RP. RP on the platform came into being.
They introduced dark themes, hence rated M for Mature.
RPers try to "follow the lore" and part of the lore are mature themes. It is part of the immersion.

It breaks the immersion to have to turn RP into rated G product just to protect the account from week long interruptions or even loss.

No one is asking for an "exception" to the rules. But the rules have aways been there from the beginning. We didn't have a problem before. Now they have changed them without announcement and players of all types, RP, PvE, PvP, are at risk of being affected. We want transparency more than anything.

sarahthes

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

I think that you are missing the point here.

They encouraged RP. RP on the platform came into being.
They introduced dark themes, hence rated M for Mature.
RPers try to "follow the lore" and part of the lore are mature themes. It is part of the immersion.

It breaks the immersion to have to turn RP into rated G product just to protect the account from week long interruptions or even loss.

No one is asking for an "exception" to the rules. But the rules have aways been there from the beginning. We didn't have a problem before. Now they have changed them without announcement and players of all types, RP, PvE, PvP, are at risk of being affected. We want transparency more than anything.

The assumption should be made that the code of conduct will be enforced at any time. Even before they started auto moderating it, you always ran a risk of someone in the conversation deciding they were no longer comfortable with what was said reporting you, because chat was always logged. You also ran the risk of them auditing chat logs and banning based on that, even though the sheer amount of data meant that was unlikely.

brylars

sarahthes wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

I think that you are missing the point here.

They encouraged RP. RP on the platform came into being.
They introduced dark themes, hence rated M for Mature.
RPers try to "follow the lore" and part of the lore are mature themes. It is part of the immersion.

It breaks the immersion to have to turn RP into rated G product just to protect the account from week long interruptions or even loss.

No one is asking for an "exception" to the rules. But the rules have aways been there from the beginning. We didn't have a problem before. Now they have changed them without announcement and players of all types, RP, PvE, PvP, are at risk of being affected. We want transparency more than anything.

The assumption should be made that the code of conduct will be enforced at any time. Even before they started auto moderating it, you always ran a risk of someone in the conversation deciding they were no longer comfortable with what was said reporting you, because chat was always logged. You also ran the risk of them auditing chat logs and banning based on that, even though the sheer amount of data meant that was unlikely.

I must disagree. It appears you are not familiar with the RP community's code of ethics. The foundation of it is CONSENT.

If you don't consent to what is happening then you make it known and the other player(s) are to stop and move on. It has been the practice since 2014 on ESO and is a carry over from other platforms. We actually regulate ourselves pretty well and those who do not follow this are reported. It is pretty simple really.

We cannot assume what they did not do before hand. We are at TEN YEARS. Now they decide it is time to "enforce the code of conduct?" What were they doing before? Were they not? Of course they were but the method has now changed and so has the enforcement. The appeals process needs to change as well then.

sarahthes

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

I think that you are missing the point here.

They encouraged RP. RP on the platform came into being.
They introduced dark themes, hence rated M for Mature.
RPers try to "follow the lore" and part of the lore are mature themes. It is part of the immersion.

It breaks the immersion to have to turn RP into rated G product just to protect the account from week long interruptions or even loss.

No one is asking for an "exception" to the rules. But the rules have aways been there from the beginning. We didn't have a problem before. Now they have changed them without announcement and players of all types, RP, PvE, PvP, are at risk of being affected. We want transparency more than anything.

The assumption should be made that the code of conduct will be enforced at any time. Even before they started auto moderating it, you always ran a risk of someone in the conversation deciding they were no longer comfortable with what was said reporting you, because chat was always logged. You also ran the risk of them auditing chat logs and banning based on that, even though the sheer amount of data meant that was unlikely.

I must disagree. It appears you are not familiar with the RP community's code of ethics. The foundation of it is CONSENT.

If you don't consent to what is happening then you make it known and the other player(s) are to stop and move on. It has been the practice since 2014 on ESO and is a carry over from other platforms. We actually regulate ourselves pretty well and those who do not follow this are reported. It is pretty simple really.

We cannot assume what they did not do before hand. We are at TEN YEARS. Now they decide it is time to "enforce the code of conduct?" What were they doing before? Were they not? Of course they were but the method has now changed and so has the enforcement. The appeals process needs to change as well then.

While you self policed, you still ran the risk of someone reporting people for violating the CoC.

I do think a heads up should have been done, if they truly have changed their level of enforcement and any disciplinary action wasn't the result of a complaint or report but rather AI. But you can't rule out that someone actually reported someone for something and a human dove into that person's chat logs, either.

Syldras

I partially agree with both of you, partially not.

This is indeed true:

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"
2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

If that's part of the TOS, it's the way it is. You aren't allowed to write these things, no matter if meant seriously or as a joke or rp, it also doesn't matter if someone consents. The words themselves are banned. See it as: they don't want these words to be present on their server. We can find it silly, but it's their right to define what they allow on their own platform. It's basically like house rules.

But at the same time, we can question whether the strict filter makes any sense considering the nature of the game. I think it would be wise to take into consideration how players are affected by too strict filtering - be it while roleplaying or while talking about quest content - , since it certainly can't be ZOS' plan to alienate their customers.

sarahthes

Syldras wrote: »

I partially agree with both of you, partially not.

This is indeed true:

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"
2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

If that's part of the TOS, it's the way it is. You aren't allowed to write these things, no matter if meant seriously or as a joke or rp, it also doesn't matter if someone consents. The words themselves are banned. See it as: they don't want these words to be present on their server. We can find it silly, but it's their right to define what they allow on their own platform. It's basically like house rules.

But at the same time, we can question whether the strict filter makes any sense considering the nature of the game. I think it would be wise to take into consideration how players are affected by too strict filtering - be it while roleplaying or while talking about quest content - , since it certainly can't be ZOS' plan to alienate their customers.

It's part of the code of conduct, not the TOS. Think of the code of conduct as the rules for participating. Basically the TOS describes how the company will act, and the CoC describes how the players will act. (This is a gross over simplification LOL)

BardokRedSnow

I believe the fact that we're even debating over the nuances of the TOS as it pertains to roleplay on an rpg is exactly why these sorts of things should never be automated, and I have personal experience to confirm they indeed have a system that lacks a human element to detect comments made in pms.

Whether you agree or not with rping being a grey area for the Terms of Service, the point is this is enough of an issue that the employees themselves need to handle these things and not treat us like children by having an AI invade privacy for comments they themselves normally would never even see unless a human reports them.

Im aware that we technically don't have a right to privacy on their game but if two individuals are consenting to rp and have no reason to report then that is for all intents and purposes a private affair, or was before these creepy automatic systems were launched to read what we post.

Syldras

sarahthes wrote: »

It's part of the code of conduct, not the TOS. Think of the code of conduct as the rules for participating. Basically the TOS describes how the company will act, and the CoC describes how the players will act. (This is a gross over simplification LOL)

I can't check the US TOS now, as I get automatically redirected to the ones for my language, but in my language the TOS do also include a whole paragraph named code of conduct (under point 8), which states the exactly same things as can seperately be viewed under "code of conduct" in the menu.

Anyway, I agree with you that ZOS is basically our host and we are only guests, so they can indeed decide what we are allowed to write about. If it makes sense, is a different question.

FlopsyPrince

Syldras wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A good number of MMOs have players throughout the entire day.

I can't say anything about the US server, but on PC EU, there's a big difference between evening time and the rest of the day. It's most crowded between maybe 5 pm and 11 pm our time (with a peak between 8 and 10, I'd say). In the afternoon it's emptier, and even more so at all other times. Unless it's vacation or holiday time or so.

I have noticed they seem to roll up the sidewalks at night in EU. (I live in Texas)

brylars

sarahthes wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Just so everyone is aware, this is what the actual rules pertaining to in game communication are. They don't say "except when you RP"

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

I think that you are missing the point here.

They encouraged RP. RP on the platform came into being.
They introduced dark themes, hence rated M for Mature.
RPers try to "follow the lore" and part of the lore are mature themes. It is part of the immersion.

It breaks the immersion to have to turn RP into rated G product just to protect the account from week long interruptions or even loss.

No one is asking for an "exception" to the rules. But the rules have aways been there from the beginning. We didn't have a problem before. Now they have changed them without announcement and players of all types, RP, PvE, PvP, are at risk of being affected. We want transparency more than anything.

The assumption should be made that the code of conduct will be enforced at any time. Even before they started auto moderating it, you always ran a risk of someone in the conversation deciding they were no longer comfortable with what was said reporting you, because chat was always logged. You also ran the risk of them auditing chat logs and banning based on that, even though the sheer amount of data meant that was unlikely.

I must disagree. It appears you are not familiar with the RP community's code of ethics. The foundation of it is CONSENT.

If you don't consent to what is happening then you make it known and the other player(s) are to stop and move on. It has been the practice since 2014 on ESO and is a carry over from other platforms. We actually regulate ourselves pretty well and those who do not follow this are reported. It is pretty simple really.

We cannot assume what they did not do before hand. We are at TEN YEARS. Now they decide it is time to "enforce the code of conduct?" What were they doing before? Were they not? Of course they were but the method has now changed and so has the enforcement. The appeals process needs to change as well then.

While you self policed, you still ran the risk of someone reporting people for violating the CoC.

I do think a heads up should have been done, if they truly have changed their level of enforcement and any disciplinary action wasn't the result of a complaint or report but rather AI. But you can't rule out that someone actually reported someone for something and a human dove into that person's chat logs, either.

Actually we can rule it out since gaming companies are turning to AI and letting go entire departments of moderators. If the conversation is between friends or family members and you know they did not report you. It can be narrowed down what happened, but not why. We type so much in the game. We rarely know why we get suspended, (except those who knowingly break the rules, of course). That is a continuing problem. No quote or clip of what was the offence, just a generic form letter.

Cavanoskus

I've been following this thread and I'd like to point out something that's been mentioned a few times but seems constantly at risk of getting lost in the other discussions about the TOS, consent, RP, etc. and that's the sheer oversensitivity of the "swear" filter. If any bans are handed out based solely on things that trip that filter (whether it's a human or AI doing it), then we're all at risk of being banned for completely innocuous things we have no clue about. I tripped the "swear" filter once (that I know of) and it was a deeply confusing experience for both me and the person I was whispering to.

I had just made a new friend in the game, helped them beat a world boss and made them a set of training gear, and we decided we wanted to play together again soon. To better coordinate, I gave them my Discord username... which they couldn't read properly because it was tripping the filter. This was back when Discord appended random numbers after your chosen name. Mine was Cavanoskus with some numbers and my new friend couldn't read it because the last part of it was blocked out with ****. I had no idea why they couldn't add me until they typed my username back to me the way they saw it, with the censorship. (I'd turned the filter off almost immediately; I learned long ago they hinder more than help and I wanted to avoid being unable to read false positives like "whisper me," "basement," and "grapes.")

How in Oblivion was my Discord name tripping the filter? I figured it out — the random numbers at the end were "#17xx" (the xx being other digits I don't remember anymore). The last letter of the name part of my username was S.

The chat filter saw Cavanoskus#17xx and rendered it as Cavanosku**** because it saw the # as a stand-in for an H, 1 for an I, and 7 for a T and interpreted s # 1 7 as an attempt to say a 4-letter word referring to excrement.

At the time it was just a major facepalm moment and a funny anecdote about how stupid these filters can actually be (plus the fact that I'd had that Discord name for years and never once noticed part of it could be remotely interpreted as a "bad word" until the filter — meant to protect me from such vulgarity, instead revealed it to me, gasp!!!) but put into current context I wonder if today it could be an auto-bannable offense. Especially since rather than simply saying the word, it would have looked like I was deliberately trying to circumvent the filter by using characters such as #, and such evasion is often considered worse.

Kind of sobering to think I could be banned for failing to notice a completely random string of numbers and symbols, which I had nothing to do with selecting, might form a 1337-5p34k "swear" word when placed after a certain letter. It feels even weirder somehow than getting flagged for saying something that turns out to be rude in another language — I mean in that case it's still actually a word!

Arunei

@manukartofanu @jaws343
Are you guys being purposefully obtuse? You're saying that we should all be at risk of warning, suspension, or bans because of a computer program that can't tell context deciding private conversation between adults needs auto-moderating?

I'm sure, then, you'd be totally fine if your phone provider was monitoring every single private call you had and threatening to call the police on you if you ever said a bad word or something lewd?

I'm truly struggling to understand why y'all think it's cool for people to have accounts actioned for the HORRIBLE OFFENSE of using colorful language among friends in private instances and settings. So like...what if someone opens up about trauma they've dealt with and say they were S/A'd but use the word grape without the g, and the bot that can't tell the context that word was used in decides it must be a threat or an insult?

What about the issue that's been brought up multiple times with words in different languages being able to have innocent meanings in their native tongue but being offensive in another?

The report feature exists for a reason. No actions should be taken against accounts by a bot. Ever. And nothing anyone can say will change that.

ESO_player123

Speaking of triggering the filter in the chat. I once was selling some furnishing plans in public chat. Linked the name of a recipe and listed the price as 600K (or may be it was 900K, I do not remember exactly.) The price part got bleeped out. Once I added a space between the number and K (600 K) everything became fine. May be I'm very naïve, but I have no idea what that was about.

ESO_player123

Arunei wrote: »

@manukartofanu @jaws343
Are you guys being purposefully obtuse? You're saying that we should all be at risk of warning, suspension, or bans because of a computer program that can't tell context deciding private conversation between adults needs auto-moderating?

I'm sure, then, you'd be totally fine if your phone provider was monitoring every single private call you had and threatening to call the police on you if you ever said a bad word or something lewd?

I'm truly struggling to understand why y'all think it's cool for people to have accounts actioned for the HORRIBLE OFFENSE of using colorful language among friends in private instances and settings. So like...what if someone opens up about trauma they've dealt with and say they were S/A'd but use the word grape without the g, and the bot that can't tell the context that word was used in decides it must be a threat or an insult?

What about the issue that's been brought up multiple times with words in different languages being able to have innocent meanings in their native tongue but being offensive in another?

The report feature exists for a reason. No actions should be taken against accounts by a bot. Ever. And nothing anyone can say will change that.

I think your phone provider example is not a good one here. While subscribing to a phone service you do not sign any agreements about what you are allowed to say over the phone. People in this thread posted parts of the ToS that describe the topics/language that is not going to be tolerated. And we all signed it.

Syldras

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Speaking of triggering the filter in the chat. I once was selling some furnishing plans in public chat. Linked the name of a recipe and listed the price as 600K (or may be it was 900K, I do not remember exactly.) The price part got bleeped out. Once I added a space between the number and K (600 K) everything became fine. May be I'm very naïve, but I have no idea what that was about.

Read the 9 as a "g" and it's an ethnic slur, according to Wikipedia.

ESO_player123

Syldras wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Speaking of triggering the filter in the chat. I once was selling some furnishing plans in public chat. Linked the name of a recipe and listed the price as 600K (or may be it was 900K, I do not remember exactly.) The price part got bleeped out. Once I added a space between the number and K (600 K) everything became fine. May be I'm very naïve, but I have no idea what that was about.

Read the 9 as a "g" and it's an ethnic slur, according to Wikipedia.

I'm not going to search the Internet for some obscure words when all I want to do is post a price. I'm all for removing the toxic content, but the filter needs to be done better. Besides, what is the point of reading one symbol as another if all you need to do to bypass is simply add spaces (like the gold sellers do with the names of their websites when advertising the the chat)?

Arunei

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

@manukartofanu @jaws343
Are you guys being purposefully obtuse? You're saying that we should all be at risk of warning, suspension, or bans because of a computer program that can't tell context deciding private conversation between adults needs auto-moderating?

I'm sure, then, you'd be totally fine if your phone provider was monitoring every single private call you had and threatening to call the police on you if you ever said a bad word or something lewd?

I'm truly struggling to understand why y'all think it's cool for people to have accounts actioned for the HORRIBLE OFFENSE of using colorful language among friends in private instances and settings. So like...what if someone opens up about trauma they've dealt with and say they were S/A'd but use the word grape without the g, and the bot that can't tell the context that word was used in decides it must be a threat or an insult?

What about the issue that's been brought up multiple times with words in different languages being able to have innocent meanings in their native tongue but being offensive in another?

The report feature exists for a reason. No actions should be taken against accounts by a bot. Ever. And nothing anyone can say will change that.

I think your phone provider example is not a good one here. While subscribing to a phone service you do not sign any agreements about what you are allowed to say over the phone. People in this thread posted parts of the ToS that describe the topics/language that is not going to be tolerated. And we all signed it.

In that case I'd like to bring up something someone else did above me. Why wait going on 11 years to start handing out actions against accounts then? I will admit I've had my share of spicy RP. I've had my share of gruesome RP. No characters I've ever played use explicit language, or if they do, a lot of the time it's Old English like arse (which is used in-game) or something like "sod" in place of the f-word.

If this has always been in the ToS why have I never once, in like 9-ish years of RP, ever been hit by this bot/AI/whatever? Why is it only now being an issue? There are a few potential reasons.

This is all happening and it's a recent addition, thus it only really recently seeming to be such a huge issue.

This is all happening and it's because that computer program is glitching badly somehow. Maybe it existed this whole time and properly flagged things for human review, maybe it was recently added, but either way it's bugging out.

It's not actually happening and people are just stirring the pot trying to create drama where none exists. Though I feel if this were the case, the devs should have been able to quickly be like "Oh nah this isn't actually happening people are just out here spreading worry and chaos all's good" by now.

The fact that we don't have any sort of comment saying it's not an issue is very concerning. It likely means the devs are having to check things, maybe check other things depending on what they found, and potentially check even more branching stuff. Which means something either did go wrong or this was a deliberate decision and now it's a matter of them trying to work on a damage control response.

And I think we all know how long THAT can take.

Also I know we don't sign user agreements for phone service, and honestly I didn't phrase it right. I should have said they monitor all your private calls with an automatic system that can potentially flag you for use of "bad language". It was meant to highlight how ridiculous it is for anyone to think actions made by machines that can't consider context is justifiable. Do those people not realize they could be hit by this same system as anyone else, especially considering the whole accidentally triggering the filter thing? Nearly all of us should realize it really is too sensitive and nothing that trips that easily should be responsible for actioning accounts.

Syldras

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Besides, what is the point of reading one symbol as another if all you need to do to bypass is simply add spaces (like the gold sellers do with the names of their websites when advertising the the chat)?

It's interesting actually that it works in this case, but "whisper me" gets censored all the time.

ESO_player123

Arunei wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

@manukartofanu @jaws343
Are you guys being purposefully obtuse? You're saying that we should all be at risk of warning, suspension, or bans because of a computer program that can't tell context deciding private conversation between adults needs auto-moderating?

I'm sure, then, you'd be totally fine if your phone provider was monitoring every single private call you had and threatening to call the police on you if you ever said a bad word or something lewd?

I'm truly struggling to understand why y'all think it's cool for people to have accounts actioned for the HORRIBLE OFFENSE of using colorful language among friends in private instances and settings. So like...what if someone opens up about trauma they've dealt with and say they were S/A'd but use the word grape without the g, and the bot that can't tell the context that word was used in decides it must be a threat or an insult?

What about the issue that's been brought up multiple times with words in different languages being able to have innocent meanings in their native tongue but being offensive in another?

The report feature exists for a reason. No actions should be taken against accounts by a bot. Ever. And nothing anyone can say will change that.

I think your phone provider example is not a good one here. While subscribing to a phone service you do not sign any agreements about what you are allowed to say over the phone. People in this thread posted parts of the ToS that describe the topics/language that is not going to be tolerated. And we all signed it.

In that case I'd like to bring up something someone else did above me. Why wait going on 11 years to start handing out actions against accounts then? I will admit I've had my share of spicy RP. I've had my share of gruesome RP. No characters I've ever played use explicit language, or if they do, a lot of the time it's Old English like arse (which is used in-game) or something like "sod" in place of the f-word.

If this has always been in the ToS why have I never once, in like 9-ish years of RP, ever been hit by this bot/AI/whatever? Why is it only now being an issue? There are a few reasons.

This is all happening and it's a recent addition, thus it only really recently seeming to be such a huge issue.

This is all happening and it's because that computer program is glitching badly somehow. Maybe it existed this whole time and properly flagged things for human review, maybe it was recently added, but either way it's bugging out.

It's not actually happening and people are just stirring the pot trying to create drama where none exists. Though I feel if this were the case, the devs should have been able to quickly be like "Oh nah this isn't actually happening people are just out here spreading worry and chaos all's good" by now.

The fact that we don't have any sort of comment saying it's not an issue is very concerning. It likely means the devs are having to check things, maybe check other things depending on what they found, and potentially check even more branching stuff. Which means something either did go wrong or this was a deliberate decision and now it's a matter of them trying to work on a damage control response.

And I think we all know how long THAT can take.

I also think that answering without checking the issue first would not be in their best interest. And it will take time to investigate properly especially since they are requesting people's ticket numbers (was done by a mod in the other thread on this topic that is now closed).

People keep mentioning AI. If that is indeed what it is, then it could be a new addition seeing that the explosion of AI is a very recent thing.

sarahthes

It isn't against forum TOS to post ticket #s asking for more help if you've been banned for this.

So. Post your ticket #s. Maybe you can get unbanned that way.

ESO_player123

sarahthes wrote: »

It isn't against forum TOS to post ticket #s asking for more help if you've been banned for this.

So. Post your ticket #s. Maybe you can get unbanned that way.

Not only it's not against the ToS, a mod actually encouraged people to share the ticket #s with Mod Kevin in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665853/dumb-ai-has-put-a-halt-to-my-spending#latest

Ugrak

Cavanoskus wrote: »

I've been following this thread and I'd like to point out something that's been mentioned a few times but seems constantly at risk of getting lost in the other discussions about the TOS, consent, RP, etc. and that's the sheer oversensitivity of the "swear" filter. If any bans are handed out based solely on things that trip that filter (whether it's a human or AI doing it), then we're all at risk of being banned for completely innocuous things we have no clue about.

Yes, this is the major concern for me at least. The time and money spent on an ESO account over time can become substantial. Who in their right mind would sink time and money into any of this if all of this is likely to be arbitrarily jeopardized for things that don't even seem to make sense.

Cavanoskus wrote: »

Kind of sobering to think I could be banned for failing to notice a completely random string of numbers and symbols, which I had nothing to do with selecting, might form a 1337-5p34k "swear" word when placed after a certain letter. It feels even weirder somehow than getting flagged for saying something that turns out to be rude in another language — I mean in that case it's still actually a word!

For all we know this is only a property of the profanity filter (as opposed to other potential flagging tools) but it's wildly overzealous.

If there really is such a deep concern for the purity of communication (and challenge with doing it right), I would rather have all in-game communication features entirely removed. Replaced with basic tools for whatever prompts or requests are necessary for specific gameplay contexts. Covering the basic needs, but people would presumably use third-party services instead.

Of course it's worth reiterating that it's still unclear what exactly is going on, and to what extent.

SilverBride

ESO_player123 wrote: »

People in this thread posted parts of the ToS that describe the topics/language that is not going to be tolerated. And we all signed it.

This is true. However this does not mean that monitoring our private conversations is a good idea, and it is certainly not good customer service.

We need some communication about this.

Carcamongus

If it's against the rules to say "vulgar" words, like that one starting with an F, then how come the profanity filter can be turned off? Perhaps we need some clarifications on more than just this rumored bot.

Oh, and by "that one starting with an F", I obviously meant "fadoodle".