8 vs 8 without MMR will be bad experience for new potential PvP players

Bashev

This mode without any MMR will be a terrible idea. This is like throwing a few sharks in a kinder swimming pool. Sharks will not attack each other and will just murder the kids.

This will not give any chance to new potential players to get used to the game and will be demotivated.

xDeusEJRx

All BG's should have a strict MMR imo, it's odd to have a competitive(with a strict mmr) and one with none. A major complaint is that MMR ruins the quality of matches because new players get put in with long time vets because the current MMR is basically nonfunctional at filtering players.

The addition of a strict mmr in 4v4 is a great idea but that should just be how all BG's are filtered imo. Small scale pvp has a very high likelihood if you getting matched up against the same players and I doubt people wanna keep playing against people that smash them.

buzzclops

4v4 is a REALLY bad idea unless its an arena type deathmtach where you can't revive.

Most games will play out exactly like this:
Game starts >
Initial fight >
Team X wins the fight against team Y.
Team X has a better comp/players >
Team Y dies a second time >
Either team Y has ppl starting to leave or they just get spawn camped by X.

Toxic waste of time. Eso is not a game where its possible to make come backs and beat the fully optimized team. there won't be enough players of all MMRS to fill up queue after 1-2 months and then it'll die.

with 3 teams there's more randomness to the fights and two team can stack up on one. there's more strategic positioning to use. 4v4 is basically just a line brawl. idk im really not sure about this.

8v8 looks fun if you can't premade it. maybe allow duos to queue and force players to spread out on Dif objectives.

xDeusEJRx

buzzclops wrote: »

4v4 is a REALLY bad idea unless its an arena type deathmtach where you can't revive.

Most games will play out exactly like this:
Game starts >
Initial fight >
Team X wins the fight against team Y.
Team X has a better comp/players >
Team Y dies a second time >
Either team Y has ppl starting to leave or they just get spawn camped by X.

Toxic waste of time. Eso is not a game where its possible to make come backs and beat the fully optimized team. there won't be enough players of all MMRS to fill up queue after 1-2 months and then it'll die.

with 3 teams there's more randomness to the fights and two team can stack up on one. there's more strategic positioning to use. 4v4 is basically just a line brawl. idk im really not sure about this.

8v8 looks fun if you can't premade it. maybe allow duos to queue and force players to spread out on Dif objectives.

I don't think so, 4v4 is supposed to be competitive so it's likely not going to attract players who will get stomped over and over again in the first place, those people will just queue for casual 8v8 mode. Also there's a strict MMR that can be reduced so if a noob is getting stomped, their MMR will eventually reset and be sent back to the noob lobby.

Doesn't seem like an issue to me. 3 Team mode game modes are not a better alternative because the same scenario you described happens in it. 1 team stomps team 2 still and team 3 ignores and plays OBJ until game ends. It very rarely is "balanced" where teams stack up because MMR is nonfunctional in the sense that noobs can still fight multiple year vets, it's a bad system.

I see no issue with it as long as they strictly enforce MMR and keep noobs in noob lobbies and good players in high level lobbies

CameraBeardThePirate

buzzclops wrote: »

4v4 is a REALLY bad idea unless its an arena type deathmtach where you can't revive.

Well good news: they said some of the maps will have limited respawns and best of 3 rounds.

buzzclops

"those ppl" the "casuals" still won't queue for pvp even with the new changes. maybe for a week or so...
this type of content will always end up sweaty with like 100 players rotating during the week.

with top teams it will be a stalemate fest most games with no one dying. 2 polar wind healers ETC. its not going to be fun. I know cause im a sweaty try hard and play sweat bgs on pc na. the same mentality will go over. you won't be able to queue unless you have a full premade with the best comp otherwise you just get destroyed. if they don't add exclusive rewards for rating or whatever rewards for playing. it'll be the same 20 names we see rn in bgs on pc na.

the top team won't be beatable on certain nights where not enough teams queue. it'll be just like it is right now.

unless they don't allow premade queuing. make it duos max maybe

I guess we will see but im not really hyped about this.

buzzclops

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

buzzclops wrote: »

4v4 is a REALLY bad idea unless its an arena type deathmtach where you can't revive.

Well good news: they said some of the maps will have limited respawns and best of 3 rounds.

yea but I persist in saying games will end on the initial fights tbh.... it needs to be whole team dies port out requeu. arena type

Necrotech_Master

i think it will be much better to have a competitive and casual queues

right now we have effectively no MMR because your bracket is determined by your medal score, which only ever goes up and just by participating, you could be the worst pvper in the world getting matched in "high MMR" matches because you for whatever reason like playing BGs all the time

based on what info was posted was there will be limited number of lives, or multiple rounds depending on the game modes, and the game modes of capture the relic and chaosball will be only for the 8v8 mode

ZOS_Kevin

Just wanted to follow up here. Just chatted with the team and MMR for 8v8 is something that can take into account during PTS based on feedback.

buzzclops

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think it will be much better to have a competitive and casual queues

right now we have effectively no MMR because your bracket is determined by your medal score, which only ever goes up and just by participating, you could be the worst pvper in the world getting matched in "high MMR" matches because you for whatever reason like playing BGs all the time

based on what info was posted was there will be limited number of lives, or multiple rounds depending on the game modes, and the game modes of capture the relic and chaosball will be only for the 8v8 mode

I 100% agree with what you said first tho! Im just very worried about the "formats" paired with the current state of balance in the game. (you need a better balance for a real competitive environment).

buzzclops

im also very ambivalent about what they said for the 8v8. that more casual players will be able to stay back and "chill"...

8v8 is still very small and those players will be singled out even easier. I know I would absolutely target them and take them out if they are out by themselves with no support, its just pvp really...

some players will get lobbies where they will legit 1v8 a team. watch it happen

when you fight outnumbered in pvp you always take out the players out of the supporting zone. overextending IS bad in pvp always. 8v8 is not like sieging around 40 players.

SkaraMinoc

8v8 might have large enough teams where MMR doesn't matter. Instead of round robin, the team formation logic should use an equal weight distribution. For example,

Player1 = 100 mmr
Player2 = 99 mmr
Player3 = 98 mmr
Player4 = 97 mmr
Player5 = 96 mmr
Player6 = 96 mmr
Player7 = 95 mmr
Player8 = 94 mmr

1. Random player joins random team

Team A = Player 3 (98)

2. Random player joins other team

Team B = Player 8 (94)

3. Start backfilling from the remaining pool of players

Team B is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player1 (100)
Team B = Player 3 (98), Player1 (100)
Team B Total = 198

Team A is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player2 (99)
Team A = Player 8 (94), Player2 (99)
Team A Total = 193

Team A is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player4 (97)
Team A = Player 8 (94), Player2 (98), Player4 (97)
Team A Total = 289

Team B is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player5 (96)
Team B = Player3 (98), Player1 (100), Player5 (96)
Team B Total = 294

Team A is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player6 (96)
Team A = Player 8 (94), Player2 (98), Player4 (97), Player6 (96)
Team A Total = 385

Team B is lower MMR, add highest MMR remaining: Player7 (95)
Team B = Player3 (98), Player1 (100), Player5 (96), Player7 (95)
Team B Total = 389

4. Final Teams

Team A (385 mmr)
Player8 = 94 mmr
Player2 = 99 mmr
Player4 = 97 mmr
Player6 = 96 mmr

Team B (389 mmr)
Player3 = 98 mmr
Player1 = 100 mmr
Player5 = 96 mmr
Player7 = 95 mmr

The same algorithm can be used for 8v8 but also slightly modified to create more balance for edge cases.

Let's say MMR 97-100 is top tier PvP. Those players will stomp MMR 94-96 most of the time. Team B has a 100 MMR player and 98 MMR player.

Team A has a 99 MMR and 97 MMR player.
Team B has a 100 MMR and 98 MMR player

The two players on Team B might be good enough to create imbalance in a 4v4 scenario and even 8v8. The algorithm can be updated to randomly decide not to place the top 2 MMR players on the same team. It must be random to prevent the scenario where the top 2 MMR players never get to be on the same team.

Necrotech_Master

buzzclops wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think it will be much better to have a competitive and casual queues

right now we have effectively no MMR because your bracket is determined by your medal score, which only ever goes up and just by participating, you could be the worst pvper in the world getting matched in "high MMR" matches because you for whatever reason like playing BGs all the time

based on what info was posted was there will be limited number of lives, or multiple rounds depending on the game modes, and the game modes of capture the relic and chaosball will be only for the 8v8 mode

I 100% agree with what you said first tho! Im just very worried about the "formats" paired with the current state of balance in the game. (you need a better balance for a real competitive environment).

to be honest, i dont think there will ever be any true "balance" for small scale pvp unless zos does something like disallows all gear sets (as that would be the less time consuming answer than adding a "when battle spirit is active" stipulation to every set in the game, or changes many procs to only affect monsters (effectively making it pve only), which i dont see happening with the many hundreds of sets that are available)

ruling out set gear would mean the only factors in play would be attribute distribution, class, armor weight, enchantments, weapon type, and skill selection (basically just give everyone a forced torc of the last ayleid king effect)

at that point it would only come down to actual class, weapon, and skill imbalance, and of course the players own skill at playing the game

Bashev

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Just chatted with the team and MMR for 8v8 is something that can take into account during PTS based on feedback.

That is great, what about healers? Is there any check how many healers a team can get? Back in the games we could have one team to have 2 or even 3 healers and this was not fun for the healers nor for the rest.

ecru

did they say they won't have MMR? a "loose" MMR is probably going to be implemented, with a wide matchmaking range to speed up queues. that's how it works in most other mmorpgs.