How can ESO incorporate bards/music better into the game?

Mascen

This is something thats been racking my brain for a while. Beyond the writing of the lore and the dialogue, music is a big fixture of any game and especially in ESO where the devs at ZOS and the voice actors have spent time lovingly and painstakingly writing and singing songs throughout the years from Red Diamond and Dance among the flowers fine to Ithgueloir and the Jagga Drinking song. So whats the best way to show some love back for our appreciation?

Im a bit stumped but the first few things that come to mind for me would be a quicktime musical minigame and perhaps a bard houseguest who can play the songs on demand. Other than that, maybe a musical furniture pack. But what does everyone else think

Syldras

I'm all for a bard houseguest, but considering the price of a single music box I don't want to imagine how much they'd charge for a bard who is able to sing all songs...

Maitsukas

Syldras wrote: »

I'm all for a bard houseguest, but considering the price of a single music box I don't want to imagine how much they'd charge for a bard who is able to sing all songs...

And having to keep that houseguest updated, since every Chapter/Zone DLC adds around 4 to 5 songs usually.

TDVM

Through instruments and not through emotions, a good example is new world, there you can do it not only solo but also in a group of several people. In ESO it would be possible to make a new branch of skills/passive of bards for all players. The more level the more music books you know and can learn. Well and get donations for your playing of musical instruments

Mascen

Syldras wrote: »

I'm all for a bard houseguest, but considering the price of a single music box I don't want to imagine how much they'd charge for a bard who is able to sing all songs...

Well the idea I had is they just use the recordings from the old VA's and slap them onto the houseguests rather than rerecording everything. For example, you could have say Jhazira-la the Khajiit who plays Dancing among the flowers fine and the other Elsweyr/Dragonhold songs currently ingame from the tavern bards or lets say Telirion the bosmer who plays the jagga song.

ZOS can then gage the success of those houseguests and then see if they wanna get Malukah or other content creators to make even bigger ones.

But honestly i get you to an extent but music boxes are wayyyy cheaper than most houseguests by at least half, nevermind the interactive ones like the armorers, bankers, and deconstructors. I could see a bard houseguest commanding a similar 5k crown price depending on the playlist they have.

Syldras

Mascen wrote: »

ZOS can then gage the success of those houseguests and then see if they wanna get Malukah or other content creators to make even bigger ones.

Back in my time (or actually more like 5-10 years ago) we called these people musicians or singers

Mascen wrote: »

But honestly i get you to an extent but music boxes are wayyyy cheaper than most houseguests by at least half, nevermind the interactive ones like the armorers, bankers, and deconstructors. I could see a bard houseguest commanding a similar 5k crown price depending on the playlist they have.

Well, you're right when it comes to that. The average music box price for 1 melody seems to be about 1000 crowns? Then a bard singing 5 different songs (which is what one chapter usually adds) could be offered for 5000, if they want to keep it fair.

I think it might be a start to begin with instrumentalists at least, if they aren't sure about offering singing bards as houseguests. There's a bard playing a nyckelharpa on High Isle (inside the inn at the docks to Amenos) that I'd love to have in one of my houses.

Heren

A bard houseguest would be really wonderful, as many others have already said throughout the years. Otherwise there's also a variety of emotes that make you play arrangements from a chapter, but you get them from crates.

On a personnal note I must say I was a bit sad when I did the bard's college collection in Solitude : sure it was fun and intersting, but I really would have loved to see something more developped, that get you around Tamriel in search of different things related to music ( well I know it's never gonna happen since they won't do a questline involving going into different chapters, but one can dream ).

Mascen wrote: »

But honestly i get you to an extent but music boxes are wayyyy cheaper than most houseguests by at least half, nevermind the interactive ones like the armorers, bankers, and deconstructors. I could see a bard houseguest commanding a similar 5k crown price depending on the playlist they have.

Maybe, maybe not : bankers and such are useful outside of a house, a bard most likely will not.

Mascen

Syldras wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

ZOS can then gage the success of those houseguests and then see if they wanna get Malukah or other content creators to make even bigger ones.

Back in my time (or actually more like 5-10 years ago) we called these people musicians or singers

Mascen wrote: »

But honestly i get you to an extent but music boxes are wayyyy cheaper than most houseguests by at least half, nevermind the interactive ones like the armorers, bankers, and deconstructors. I could see a bard houseguest commanding a similar 5k crown price depending on the playlist they have.

Well, you're right when it comes to that. The average music box price for 1 melody seems to be about 1000 crowns? Then a bard singing 5 different songs (which is what one chapter usually adds) could be offered for 5000, if they want to keep it fair.

I think it might be a start to begin with instrumentalists at least, if they aren't sure about offering singing bards as houseguests. There's a bard playing a nyckelharpa on High Isle (inside the inn at the docks to Amenos) that I'd love to have in one of my houses.

I say content creator because although it was Skyrim/the dragonborn comes which put Malukah on the map, shes branched out quit a bit since then covering other subjects such as The Witcher, Q&A sessions, but yes definitely a musician and singer.

As for the music boxes, it heavily depends. A quick glance through UESP shows that the the cheaper ones are usually around 800 crowns but just play music whereas the fancier ones around 1000 crowns have some sort of animation with them like the Dirreni's Swan. Most expensive music box seems to be the Gonfalon Galiard for 1500 crowns

Mascen

Heren wrote: »

A bard houseguest would be really wonderful, as many others have already said throughout the years. Otherwise there's also a variety of emotes that make you play arrangements from a chapter, but you get them from crates.

On a personnal note I must say I was a bit sad when I did the bard's college collection in Solitude : sure it was fun and intersting, but I really would have loved to see something more developped, that get you around Tamriel in search of different things related to music ( well I know it's never gonna happen since they won't do a questline involving going into different chapters, but one can dream ).

Mascen wrote: »

But honestly i get you to an extent but music boxes are wayyyy cheaper than most houseguests by at least half, nevermind the interactive ones like the armorers, bankers, and deconstructors. I could see a bard houseguest commanding a similar 5k crown price depending on the playlist they have.

Maybe, maybe not : bankers and such are useful outside of a house, a bard most likely will not.

this is also true but some of the fancier houseguests command 2500 crowns whereas a bard would be offering more than a normal houseguet but less than a utilitary companion. So maybe somewhere inbetween like 3500-4500 range?

Cambridge_Spy

It would be really cool if players can have a bard houseguest with the Billy Kametz vocal set playing Dremora Never Die in front of a Sanguine shrine.

umagon

They could create a class that uses sound as weapon or to buff allies. And allow players to customize the sound effect that plays while it is active; by loading in the various songs in the game into the skill from a drop list or some other method.

I play another game where the devs recently released a bard like character. I thought it was going to be kind of so so, until I played it. The character has become my favorite. I just hover around the map aoe blasting npcs with sound, it’s great.

Stafford197

I’m pretty happy with bards in ESO as they are.

If I have to be more critical, maybe having some areas with multiple musicians playing a song together? Or match up instrument playing animations better with the music? Seems like this may be a lot of effort though

Syldras

umagon wrote: »

They could create a class that uses sound as weapon or to buff allies. And allow players to customize the sound effect that plays while it is active; by loading in the various songs in the game into the skill from a drop list or some other method.
I play another game where the devs recently released a bard like character. I thought it was going to be kind of so so, until I played it. The character has become my favorite. I just hover around the map aoe blasting npcs with sound, it’s great.

Would everyone hear those sounds? Wouldn't that get horribly noisy if there are several people doing this at the same time?

GuuMoonRyoung

Simply add a sub activity called Bard, available to all class. We would have access to instruments played by bards and npcs in the game, no modern electric sounds. When we activate one instrument, we would have access to keys and notes for that instrument and would be able to play any music we want. This way we would be able to host concerts and events in game.

Syldras

I'd like to see more lore about tonal magic and how it was used by the Dwemer and the Sixth House, by the way. Yes, this is music-related, although a bit different

GuuMoonRyoung wrote: »

Simply add a sub activity called Bard, available to all class. We would have access to instruments played by bards and npcs in the game, no modern electric sounds. When we activate one instrument, we would have access to keys and notes for that instrument and would be able to play any music we want. This way we would be able to host concerts and events in game.

While I think it's an interesting idea, it does make me wonder if that could cause any problems?

In some countries copyright is extremely strict. Strictly seen, one couldn't even sing copyrighted songs (which is basically everything except for traditional folk songs) on one's own birthday party without infringing some property rights. Kindergardens were sued for singing copyrighted children songs. If you play a copyrighted song/melody online, someone might even claim it's a broadcast, even an international one... Yes, even if you play it yourself on a fictional instrument in a fictional world.

And when it comes to songs with a political background, things could get even more complicated...

Aurielle

I’ve been asking for bard houseguests for a while. The typical houseguests do nothing for me, but a bard houseguest would actually add something valuable and would be worth the cost. I have a tavern in my primary house with a stage set up for performing music, and alas, no bard to put there… a variety of bards would be great, but I’d especially be interested in adding the Rimmen bard to my home.

Anifaas

Syldras wrote: »

I'm all for a bard houseguest, but considering the price of a single music box I don't want to imagine how much they'd charge for a bard who is able to sing all songs...

Yeah, that could get expensive.

But it would be interesting if ZOS could introduce a bard who sang a single song and then you could collect/buy/excavate/gamble new songs and then "spec" your bard to play a specific collection. That way bards would allow for user-customization, provide repeatable content, offer ZOS a renewable revenue stream and would utilize numerous already existing assets.

colossalvoids

I honestly don't think it's in need of any better representation, home bards are always a fine suggestion though. Personally I'd wish they've focused a bit more on adding unique themes to important encounters, making them at least bit more memorable or at least you would be able to recognise something important is happening and not just ordinary sleeping through the boss session.

N00BxV1

I'd like it if there was a way in ESO to have custom music playlists like some other games have (GTAV for example). It would be awesome if I could make the Bards in-game play some music that I enjoyed listening to, then I might actually stop and listen to them.

Zodiarkslayer

Mascen wrote: »

ZOS can then gage the success of those houseguests and then see if they wanna get Malukah or other content creators to make even bigger ones.

I doubt that she'll return. She and ZOS had a legal fight over some if the recordings, if I recall correctly. Something avout publishing ESO songs on her YT channel.

Syldras

N00BxV1 wrote: »

I'd like it if there was a way in ESO to have custom music playlists like some other games have (GTAV for example). It would be awesome if I could make the Bards in-game play some music that I enjoyed listening to, then I might actually stop and listen to them.

I mean, you do you, but I'd find it slightly strange if one single bard with a lute emits the sound of a full band or orchestra or just one instrument that's obviously not the one that is visible. It's different to some in-game radio station where you have no visible character and animations attached to the music.

GuuMoonRyoung

Syldras wrote: »

I'd like to see more lore about tonal magic and how it was used by the Dwemer and the Sixth House, by the way. Yes, this is music-related, although a bit different

GuuMoonRyoung wrote: »

Simply add a sub activity called Bard, available to all class. We would have access to instruments played by bards and npcs in the game, no modern electric sounds. When we activate one instrument, we would have access to keys and notes for that instrument and would be able to play any music we want. This way we would be able to host concerts and events in game.

While I think it's an interesting idea, it does make me wonder if that could cause any problems?

In some countries copyright is extremely strict. Strictly seen, one couldn't even sing copyrighted songs (which is basically everything except for traditional folk songs) on one's own birthday party without infringing some property rights. Kindergardens were sued for singing copyrighted children songs. If you play a copyrighted song/melody online, someone might even claim it's a broadcast, even an international one... Yes, even if you play it yourself on a fictional instrument in a fictional world.

And when it comes to songs with a political background, things could get even more complicated...

Don't think it will be a big issue, even if people performed trademarked music on livestream. Just look at FF14 streamers, they perform copyrighted music on stream all the time, FF14 even have modern electric tunes in their instruments, so if you wanted to make orchestra of Metallica's "The Unforgiven", you could do that and some people did exactly that on a livestream. It is no different from music streamers singing or playing some famous music on livestream.

The precedence is right here for ESO to follow, I think they are fine from their side. They are only giving us music tools, they will not be sued for that, FF14 and LoTRO already do that.

N00BxV1

Syldras wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

I'd like it if there was a way in ESO to have custom music playlists like some other games have (GTAV for example). It would be awesome if I could make the Bards in-game play some music that I enjoyed listening to, then I might actually stop and listen to them.

I mean, you do you, but I'd find it slightly strange if one single bard with a lute emits the sound of a full band or orchestra or just one instrument that's obviously not the one that is visible. It's different to some in-game radio station where you have no visible character and animations attached to the music.

It's a fantasy game after all, and I'm okay with unusual things happening because it makes it more interesting. And it would be optional, so if someone doesn't want it because it breaks their immersions then they can choose not to do it. But I know this would never happen as a game feature...

AzuraFan

I'd love a bard class. I can dream.

tomofhyrule

The issue with a Bard class is that a class needs 3 skill lines, and all DLC lines have a pretty obvious tank/healer/DPS set of skills. It's not that easy to come up with a set of 15 skills + 3 ultimates for just a bard.
But... Dwemer Artificer is a great idea for a class, would totally fit in the lore as a researcher and delver into the Mystery of the Dwarves, and then you'd totally be able to put in a Tonal Magic (bard) healing line, along with summoning animunculi or vamidiums for the other skill lines

Realistically, I'm surprised that there's no bard houseguest already. There are some great ones in the game; it'd be a no brainer to just add a bard houseguest of the appropriate race/gender and then let them play their songs. I'd assume the female Altmer one who sings Summerset songs would sell like hotcakes, and I know a lot of people like the female Khajiit from Rimmen as well.

Also we had a whole quest in Solitude to find music instruments, so those could be added as furnishings.

Syldras

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The issue with a Bard class is that a class needs 3 skill lines, and all DLC lines have a pretty obvious tank/healer/DPS set of skills.
It's not that easy to come up with a set of 15 skills + 3 ultimates for just a bard.

One different instrument per skill line?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But... Dwemer Artificer is a great idea for a class, would totally fit in the lore as a researcher and delver into the Mystery of the Dwarves, and then you'd totally be able to put in a Tonal Magic (bard) healing line, along with summoning animunculi or vamidiums for the other skill lines

Why healing, though? I'd rather like to use sound destructively, like those people who screech around in talent shows on tv.

tomofhyrule

Syldras wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But... Dwemer Artificer is a great idea for a class, would totally fit in the lore as a researcher and delver into the Mystery of the Dwarves, and then you'd totally be able to put in a Tonal Magic (bard) healing line, along with summoning animunculi or vamidiums for the other skill lines

Why healing, though? I'd rather like to use sound destructively, like those people who screech around in talent shows on tv.

Nothing says you can't have morphs that turn a HoT into a DoT or something. I've actually made a whole concept for various skills that could be played with there.

The big thing is that most people think D&D when they think Bard, because that's where it's most known (but characters with the Bard class in previous Elder Scrolls games have... not used instruments at all and just had "I'm an entertainer!" as a backstory - they specialized more in Speechcraft and Illusion magic, and sword-and-board combat if needed). That means that people really are also thinking of a 'bard class' as 'Bardic Inspiration,' i.e. using music to buff allies... which is a big part of the Healer role.

We also have several quests in ESO focusing on music-as-magic, mostly with Revus Demnevanni, where the music was shown to be a disabling effect or the Breton in Amenos who used her singing to have a calming effect (so a more support-oriented CC idea to fear or charm enemies).

There's also techincally the twilight cantors of the Khajiit who calm Dro-m'Athra with their singing, as seen in Maw of Lorkhaj

But yes, most Elder Scrolls music relates more to illusion magic, and that lends itself most logically to a support role if it were to be translated to combat. But I could absolutely see morphs that would convert a soothing melody to a screeching noise to damage.

DoofusMax

My personal take on bards (more of them in more places, please) is that there are likely performance rights issues involved. We saw something similar with some of the GTA games (GTA IV was the biggie, IIRC). The composition itself may be work-for-hire, which makes music boxes feasible, but instrumental and vocal performances are probably a different issue.

Laws on performance rights can differ widely from country to country. As long as the performance is being used in the way that it was originally implemented (Daahin in the Rimmen crafting area, for example), then it's covered by the agreement with the performer(s), but it may get dicey if it gets repurposed. Someone who specializes in that area of copyright law could probably give a more comprehensive (and definitely more accurate) take on what's happening under the hood. But the fact that there have been no bard houseguests (in spite of many players expressing willingness to open their wallets for them) tells me that there is something at work which goes beyond the technical aspects of an animated model with attached sound files.

Jimbru

Music boxes should go into the General collection items, instead of requiring you to buy a separate one for every house that you want to put one in.

Playable instruments. Other games have them. Replacing the various instrument emotes and mementos with actual playable instruments would be a huge step.

A bard class would be nice, but has its difficulties as has been said. You could look at LOTRO's Minstrel class for how such a class might play offensively, using the voice not just for music but as a weapon in itself. Shouted attacks, "curse words" that actually are, and so forth.

Syldras

tomofhyrule wrote: »

We also have several quests in ESO focusing on music-as-magic, mostly with Revus Demnevanni, where the music was shown to be a disabling effect

Well, to be more precise, in that quest it only had a "disabling effect" (probably leaving permanent brain damage if a person is subjected to it for a longer time... so indeed it can lead to a severe health damage; I can imagine very well that it could kill people) because of "curious little Telvanni can't resist the urge to randomly push lewers"...

Lorewise, it is implied that the Dwemer used these generators to manipulate the will of workers (be it slaves or servants), with sound having emotion-altering effects. Like positive reactions that are so strong that they cause the workers to become addicted and basically to do everything to get these stimuli again. I'm quite sure that every emotional reaction could be easily triggered by different sounds or melodies from these tonal generators, including fear, aggression, resignation, confusion... Which would certainly also be very interesting for combat (and yes, somehow the Dwemer mostly let me think of "dark" ways to use tonal magic - they weren't exactly known for cheerful, positive things; unless future lore illuminates such an aspect of their culture, too, but until now, there's nothing that indicates this; makes me wonder now, by the way, whether the Falmer in Blackreach in TES5 also used such an old Dwemer machine to manipulate their human servants).

The only thing I'm a little sceptical about is that these sounds aren't neccessily... well, pleasant to listen to in reality. It's nothing I'd want to hear in all of Tamriel when I come across another player currently fighting (even if I'd love to have a Dwemer or even more so CWC related mechanist class; and of course new lore about the Dwemers' tonal magic, which certainly included many more uses, is always more than welcome!).

Also, it probably doesn't really satisfy people who look for a bard class in the usual sense.

Ah yes, and let's please not forget the Sixth House who use tonal magic, too, but probably in a very different way! I'd really love to get more lore about this somehow, although I'm not sure if we ever get such content, with most of Vvardenfell already being in game. Maybe through lore books, at least. Even if I know the probable real life inspiration for the bells they use everywhere (in the Forgotten Wastes in ESO as well as in the Sixth House bases in TES3) - they're basically these, which also had a ritual use in the real world, they were also found in tombs and there are theories that they were used for ancestral veneration - , I'd be really curious what TES Sixth House lore would make of these (I could see they actually linking them to the use of Dunmer ancestral magic somehow).

TaSheen

Ah.... @Syldras - I hunted up a performance on those bells. Astounding.... Thanks for the reference to them!