50% of players in Cyro don't even want to PVP

JustLovely

Vulkunne wrote: »

Nathanbreakfast wrote: »

Go out to a enemy rss solo to cap. Unkillable 50k health tank responds and just stands on flag buffing and self healing, no intention of playing PVP. Move on to Vlast, 50k unkillable tank with pocket healer stands on flag, again no fight. Try to move on to somewhere else, cant mount stuck in combat 5 minutes. Show up to keep under attack. NB attacks me, I get the the upper hand, he runs away. Sorc attacks me, I get the upperhand for a moment, runs away. Bombed by 12 man ballgroup pulled from 20 meters away while I have CC immunity. Respawn. Go out to a enemy rss solo to cap. Unkillable 50k health tank responds and just stands on flag buffing and self healing, no intention of playing PVP. This game has turned into absolute garbage.

PvP has become garbage in this game.

...thanks to RoA and Tarnished Nightmare sets.

Joy_Division

Kartalin wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Forgot to mention professional siegers. Go to attack a keep with a few friends in the hopes of getting some people to come out to attack you, instead 20 siege appears on the walls manned by the most accurate point-and-click coldfire fanatics you've ever seen, bombarding you until you say screw it and go somewhere else.

Counter siege is definitely an art. Proper oils/meatbags inside the inner FD and over the OFD are good examples, but cold fire is also definitely fun. Its all in the game

Sure, but if you break through the door they frequently scatter like rats, disappearing before they can actually engage in actual pvp combat, as opposed to siege vs player.

The most entertaining part of this are the ones jumping from the D-ring of inner keeps/outposts to avoid getting killed and end up falling to their deaths. Lol, still got your AP, gg nice try

It's especially gratifying to get them while they are trying to pack up their siege :P

Jsmalls

joshisanonymous wrote: »

So people don't allow you to capture objectives or to kill them and you think this means they're not PvPing?

These people are partaking in the type of PvP Cyrodiil is about way more than the people who just want to run circles around rocks and walls so they can "1vX" over locations that mean absolutely nothing to the overall war. IMO, everything a player does in Cyrodiil should be in support of the overall war objective in some way: e.g., capturing objectives, defending objectives, killing enemies en route to objectives, etc.

So this is what's bugs me most about this comment because it's not just this game that this mentality is an issue.

There are numerous ways to play any and every game. And while yes everyone definition of fun is different, there are healthy and unhealthy mechanics for every game. I'm going to compare two very different games.

Call of Duty. We'll even include objectives for the sake of this argument.

There is a very common disliked playstyle in this game called... Camping.

Let's say the game mode is Domination. You get points for holding each of the 3 objectives. Each team has 5 players.

Two players are camping A, Two players of the opposing team are Camping C.

Of the remaining 6 players 2 from each team are hard scoped on objective B, and the last player from each side gets killed anytime they touch objective B.

The two players that keep getting killed leave the game.

Now nothing is happening the entire match. You have 8 people camping different angles falling asleep at the keyboard.

It's not fun if EVERYONE does it. Those that like to camp say "I'm playing strategically." Okay well the only reason you're having "fun" is because you have other players that refuse to play like that. If everyone plays like you, no one has fun. That's extremely selfish and not HEALTHY for the overall experience of the game.

Now let's take ESO.

You have 2 "tanks" with mediocre damage in each alliance.

All 4 players walk up to an enemy Resource and... No one dies... Flags don't get captured, because there is equal numbers. You have the choice of waiting the other players out or leaving yourself cuz you're bored.

No one had fun in that scenario.

This is PvP. You're gonna die. Over and over and over. You know how many times I get 10v1'd by WoF (zergy guild) in blackreach? A lot. But I'll gladly walk into that fight every time because getting 2 kills in a 1v10 is satisfying.

So yes you can play however you want. But when what you're doing is "easy" ask yourself, if everyone did the same thing would you still be having fun? If the answer is no then what you are doing isn't healthy for the game.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

So people don't allow you to capture objectives or to kill them and you think this means they're not PvPing?

These people are partaking in the type of PvP Cyrodiil is about way more than the people who just want to run circles around rocks and walls so they can "1vX" over locations that mean absolutely nothing to the overall war. IMO, everything a player does in Cyrodiil should be in support of the overall war objective in some way: e.g., capturing objectives, defending objectives, killing enemies en route to objectives, etc.

So this is what's bugs me most about this comment because it's not just this game that this mentality is an issue.

There are numerous ways to play any and every game. And while yes everyone definition of fun is different, there are healthy and unhealthy mechanics for every game. I'm going to compare two very different games.

Call of Duty. We'll even include objectives for the sake of this argument.

There is a very common disliked playstyle in this game called... Camping.

Let's say the game mode is Domination. You get points for holding each of the 3 objectives. Each team has 5 players.

Two players are camping A, Two players of the opposing team are Camping C.

Of the remaining 6 players 2 from each team are hard scoped on objective B, and the last player from each side gets killed anytime they touch objective B.

The two players that keep getting killed leave the game.

Now nothing is happening the entire match. You have 8 people camping different angles falling asleep at the keyboard.

It's not fun if EVERYONE does it. Those that like to camp say "I'm playing strategically." Okay well the only reason you're having "fun" is because you have other players that refuse to play like that. If everyone plays like you, no one has fun. That's extremely selfish and not HEALTHY for the overall experience of the game.

Now let's take ESO.

You have 2 "tanks" with mediocre damage in each alliance.

All 4 players walk up to an enemy Resource and... No one dies... Flags don't get captured, because there is equal numbers. You have the choice of waiting the other players out or leaving yourself cuz you're bored.

No one had fun in that scenario.

This is PvP. You're gonna die. Over and over and over. You know how many times I get 10v1'd by WoF (zergy guild) in blackreach? A lot. But I'll gladly walk into that fight every time because getting 2 kills in a 1v10 is satisfying.

So yes you can play however you want. But when what you're doing is "easy" ask yourself, if everyone did the same thing would you still be having fun? If the answer is no then what you are doing isn't healthy for the game.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

This view assumes some things and I'd argue you can look at it differently. I have in the past spent a lot of time playing a pvp tank and usually have fun whether it's all dps or so tanks because I find an angle that works for me or move on to another objective.

You aren't responsible for how someone else does or doesn't enjoy their game. Everyone comes with their playstyle and objectives and we see where it goes from there. If your focus is narrow you're going to find more spots where the game let's you down.

As a dps if I come to a tank I just practice some rotations and build ult till more of my faction or another comes along.

Any time you get tunnel vision in this game you can end up with success, boredom, or failure. I'd say try to look at the game dynamically in your objectives because as long as you play this game you're going to run into all types. For each player that can be a fun thing or a pain point. I just try to find the fun in it.

Kartalin

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Forgot to mention professional siegers. Go to attack a keep with a few friends in the hopes of getting some people to come out to attack you, instead 20 siege appears on the walls manned by the most accurate point-and-click coldfire fanatics you've ever seen, bombarding you until you say screw it and go somewhere else.

Counter siege is definitely an art. Proper oils/meatbags inside the inner FD and over the OFD are good examples, but cold fire is also definitely fun. Its all in the game

Sure, but if you break through the door they frequently scatter like rats, disappearing before they can actually engage in actual pvp combat, as opposed to siege vs player.

The most entertaining part of this are the ones jumping from the D-ring of inner keeps/outposts to avoid getting killed and end up falling to their deaths. Lol, still got your AP, gg nice try

It's especially gratifying to get them while they are trying to pack up their siege :P

Bonus points for cold fire and lancers

React

A big part of the issue here that people fail to grasp is the effort/skill required to survive as a pvp tank compared to the effort required to dps well, and how in the current state of the game a properly built tank would have to go completely afk to die to the best DPS player.

It wasn't always the case that tanks were completely untouchable the way they are now. You used to be able to wear them down sustain wise, pressure their HP with due to their lack of any real self healing/shielding, catch them when their block dropped on barswaps which was removed, etc. Tanks could feasibly die 1v1 in the past if they played poorly and the DPS trying to kill them played well.

This is no longer the case. Now the most inept tank can effortlessly and endlessly survive the highest DPS player flawlessly parsing them if they equip the right sets and skills. They never run out of sustain, many of them have access to strong defensive scaling heals (polar wind, necro scythe, nightblade dark cloak, healthsorc hardened ward, arc impervious runeward), etc. This allows for boring and toxic scenarios like the one OP described, where they'll show up to a resource or a flag in IC and just stand there, preventing you from flipping it. Or when they'll do nothing but spam resurrect people in a fight, without you being able to do anything to punish them because they're completely untouchable. Or when theyll stand on a relic in a BG spamming bash so nobody can pick it up. This would be all fine if there was counterplay to it, but there isn't. The counterplay is quite literally "have 3-4x players to kill one tank"..

The game disproportionately rewards players who don't care about actually participating in PVP, and this in turn hurts the experience for those who do.

Bushido2513

React wrote: »

A big part of the issue here that people fail to grasp is the effort/skill required to survive as a pvp tank compared to the effort required to dps well, and how in the current state of the game a properly built tank would have to go completely afk to die to the best DPS player.

It wasn't always the case that tanks were completely untouchable the way they are now. You used to be able to wear them down sustain wise, pressure their HP with due to their lack of any real self healing/shielding, catch them when their block dropped on barswaps which was removed, etc. Tanks could feasibly die 1v1 in the past if they played poorly and the DPS trying to kill them played well.

This is no longer the case. Now the most inept tank can effortlessly and endlessly survive the highest DPS player flawlessly parsing them if they equip the right sets and skills. They never run out of sustain, many of them have access to strong defensive scaling heals (polar wind, necro scythe, nightblade dark cloak, healthsorc hardened ward, arc impervious runeward), etc. This allows for boring and toxic scenarios like the one OP described, where they'll show up to a resource or a flag in IC and just stand there, preventing you from flipping it. Or when they'll do nothing but spam resurrect people in a fight, without you being able to do anything to punish them because they're completely untouchable. Or when theyll stand on a relic in a BG spamming bash so nobody can pick it up. This would be all fine if there was counterplay to it, but there isn't. The counterplay is quite literally "have 3-4x players to kill one tank"..

The game disproportionately rewards players who don't care about actually participating in PVP, and this in turn hurts the experience for those who do.

So what's the tank's reward for giving up all damage if they can't tank players that decide to engage them?

How is there no counterplay when just two players who care to kill tanks can do so fairly easily with the right setup? There are sets and poisons that are there just to kill tanks.

But again why should a tank or healer fold so easily when they have no way to kill a player?

Also since when was pvp just about kills? Player vs player doesn't strictly translate to player kill player. If a player is denying you something then I'd say you could call them your adversary. If you didn't bring the numbers or kit to beat them then so be it move on to the next thing, they won this round lol

Iriidius

divnyi wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

I would say the same of Imperial City. Pretty sure a lot of players are there for the quests and other PVE aspects and couldn't care less about PVP. I'm one of them.

To be fair IC is PvPvE zone and I would only cheer if they increased incentives to actually do PvE there due to the dangers that this zone put on a player.

All Tel Var in IC is created by killing NPCs, nothing by killing players, it just changes owner. Because nobody farms Tel Var and everyone zergs other players nobody gives much Tel Var when killed. In 2018 you could easily farm NPCs and sometimes 1v1 another player, nowadays as a solo player you dont get threw a district without getting jumped by a full group and with a group you have to split your tel var from killing soloable NPCs and still get zerged by bigger groups. Got zerged probably few hundred times in a IC Event and not a single time attacked solo and it is not because I am unkillable 1v1 but because noone had any interest to 1v1.
There is zero risk for the attacker and no chance to survive for the victim in most IC fights.

Rohamad_Ali

Where's the 50% stat coming from?

Iriidius

joshisanonymous wrote: »

So people don't allow you to capture objectives or to kill them and you think this means they're not PvPing?

These people are partaking in the type of PvP Cyrodiil is about way more than the people who just want to run circles around rocks and walls so they can "1vX" over locations that mean absolutely nothing to the overall war. IMO, everything a player does in Cyrodiil should be in support of the overall war objective in some way: e.g., capturing objectives, defending objectives, killing enemies en route to objectives, etc.

Why are you even talking about 1vXers, OP did not mention trying to 1vX and nobody here asked to 1vX. When I startet PvPing (in PuGs) we were all the time attacked by 1vXers, nowadays most 1vXers have quittet the game or play in groups and do not ever enter Cyrodiil alone and the hate on 1vXers has drastically increased. Seems like every player without group is automatically an arrogant 1vXer no matter how much he tries to avoid getting into a 1vX.

A 1vXer is contributing as much as the x players and definitely much more than the 58. player at an undefended objective that could be taken alone or by a small group.
OP is definitely partaking in „PvP“ when he is trying to take ressoursses solo. The 50k hp tank is also participating in (objective) PvP when he is preventing OP from taking ressoursse by standing at flag with an unkillable build but not in what most people here understand as PvP(players fighting and trying to kill other players) when he is not trying to kill OP and he is definitely not making Cyrodiil fun.

xDeusEJRx

Bushido2513 wrote: »

React wrote: »

A big part of the issue here that people fail to grasp is the effort/skill required to survive as a pvp tank compared to the effort required to dps well, and how in the current state of the game a properly built tank would have to go completely afk to die to the best DPS player.

It wasn't always the case that tanks were completely untouchable the way they are now. You used to be able to wear them down sustain wise, pressure their HP with due to their lack of any real self healing/shielding, catch them when their block dropped on barswaps which was removed, etc. Tanks could feasibly die 1v1 in the past if they played poorly and the DPS trying to kill them played well.

This is no longer the case. Now the most inept tank can effortlessly and endlessly survive the highest DPS player flawlessly parsing them if they equip the right sets and skills. They never run out of sustain, many of them have access to strong defensive scaling heals (polar wind, necro scythe, nightblade dark cloak, healthsorc hardened ward, arc impervious runeward), etc. This allows for boring and toxic scenarios like the one OP described, where they'll show up to a resource or a flag in IC and just stand there, preventing you from flipping it. Or when they'll do nothing but spam resurrect people in a fight, without you being able to do anything to punish them because they're completely untouchable. Or when theyll stand on a relic in a BG spamming bash so nobody can pick it up. This would be all fine if there was counterplay to it, but there isn't. The counterplay is quite literally "have 3-4x players to kill one tank"..

The game disproportionately rewards players who don't care about actually participating in PVP, and this in turn hurts the experience for those who do.

So what's the tank's reward for giving up all damage if they can't tank players that decide to engage them?

How is there no counterplay when just two players who care to kill tanks can do so fairly easily with the right setup? There are sets and poisons that are there just to kill tanks.

But again why should a tank or healer fold so easily when they have no way to kill a player?

Also since when was pvp just about kills? Player vs player doesn't strictly translate to player kill player. If a player is denying you something then I'd say you could call them your adversary. If you didn't bring the numbers or kit to beat them then so be it move on to the next thing, they won this round lol

Missed the point, his point is that the game's balance is so out of wack that any average tank has the tools to tank 4x the amount of players with ease due to the tools available. In the past in order to do that, you'd have to watch sustain, weave heavy attacks to keep stamina up, play to your classes strengths and you could still lose if the other players outplayed or play better than you or you didn't resource manage, etc. If it was a skill issue no one would care if it takes 10 to kill 1. That's not the case however.

Now you just have to slap on Mara's balm and another tank set and hold block with all sturdy, maybe some scribe skills to make yourself even tankier and you need at least 12 people to kill you, and you don't even NEED to be blocking to tank damage from those players, that's how strong sets like Mara's balm are when the heal proc go off. And that's the current nerfed version of mara's, let's not forget it was even stronger, imagine tanks back then.

The balance is so out of wack that sets like mara's balm let you survive against 4x the odds without even needing permanent block on a tank.

Amottica

The first two examples are very successful defenses of the objective to prevent another player from taking it. Cyrodiil is an objective-based PvP.

The second two are great examples of players who did not want to give AP to another alliance, so they successfully evaded. It is good to stop their retreat and kill them, but it is what it is.

It sounds like 100% of the people are engaged in PvP. A big part of PvP is figuring out how to overcome challenges. Good luck with that.

Iriidius

Amottica wrote: »

The first two examples are very successful defenses of the objective to prevent another player from taking it. Cyrodiil is an objective-based PvP.

The second two are great examples of players who did not want to give AP to another alliance, so they successfully evaded. It is good to stop their retreat and kill them, but it is what it is.

It sounds like 100% of the people are engaged in PvP. A big part of PvP is figuring out how to overcome challenges. Good luck with that.

Maybe the first 2 successfully defended an object, but did not even try to kill OP in a fight and just stalemated him. They only engaged in PvP if you define PvP as taking objects but not if you define it like OP as fighting to kill other players which is definitely also a form of PvP in which these players do not engage making his statement true.

Second 2 players disengaging after failing to kill OP is logical because why would you fight someone you cant kill but who can kill you?

There is no way to overcome challenge of a full tank, they are absolutely unkillable 1v1 and if they stand on flag you cant take it and your attempt to take ressoursse has failed, they do not have to kill you but just stalemate until guards respawn which is easy with a build that can tank 10-20 players.

Amottica

Iriidius wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The first two examples are very successful defenses of the objective to prevent another player from taking it. Cyrodiil is an objective-based PvP.

The second two are great examples of players who did not want to give AP to another alliance, so they successfully evaded. It is good to stop their retreat and kill them, but it is what it is.

It sounds like 100% of the people are engaged in PvP. A big part of PvP is figuring out how to overcome challenges. Good luck with that.

Maybe the first 2 successfully defended an object, but did not even try to kill OP in a fight and just stalemated him. They only engaged in PvP if you define PvP as taking objects but not if you define it like OP as fighting to kill other players which is definitely also a form of PvP in which these players do not engage making his statement true.

Second 2 players disengaging after failing to kill OP is logical because why would you fight someone you cant kill but who can kill you?

There is no way to overcome challenge of a full tank, they are absolutely unkillable 1v1 and if they stand on flag you cant take it and your attempt to take ressoursse has failed, they do not have to kill you but just stalemate until guards respawn which is easy with a build that can tank 10-20 players.

They did not need to try to kill the OP in those first two. Merely being attacked was probably enough to get the defense tick since they successfully defended the resource merely by being there.

The second pair has a question mark, but it is not worded as a question. If the question is whether it is logical to evade and leave the fight when it is clearly going to be a loss, then the answer is a resounding yes. Staying to allow the enemy player to kill you gives them alliance points in the match. It makes more sense to escape, and it has the added benefit of not having to trudge back from the spawn location.

Is that a problem?

As for the last, I never suggested there was a manner to kill the tank 1v1 and especially 1v2 with the example that they had a pocket healer. I merely suggested a big part of PvP is how to overcome challenges. Bringing in someone else or even building to overcome the resistance and reduce the healing are thoughts to consider in such circumstances.

But my point was that all the examples demonstrated that 100% of the people were engaged in PvP even if some did it rather passively.

SeaGtGruff

React wrote: »

Now the most inept tank can effortlessly and endlessly survive the highest DPS player flawlessly parsing them if they equip the right sets and skills.

I am wondering-- Do you play a tank?

CameraBeardThePirate

People in here saying "Just group up and kill the tank" clearly have no idea how overtuned some tank builds are. You can very easily build in a way that nothing short of a ballgroup or faction stack will kill you. All you have to do is go to Alessia on Grey Host and you'll see this, or go into CP IC to see people that literally spend 2+hours standing on 1 single flag so that no one else can cap it. It's ridiculous.

OreoTheDj

go 2h ultimate, run shattered fate or shell splitter. be a tank hunter run jerrals build to fight these specific people be the Bane of any man with a shield.

CameraBeardThePirate

OreoTheDj wrote: »

go 2h ultimate, run shattered fate or shell splitter. be a tank hunter run jerrals build to fight these specific people be the Bane of any man with a shield.

Newsflash - pen does nothing against 95%+ block mitigation. Block mitigation is the single most overtuned stat in the game.

Kartalin

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

People in here saying "Just group up and kill the tank" clearly have no idea how overtuned some tank builds are. You can very easily build in a way that nothing short of a ballgroup or faction stack will kill you. All you have to do is go to Alessia on Grey Host and you'll see this, or go into CP IC to see people that literally spend 2+hours standing on 1 single flag so that no one else can cap it. It's ridiculous.

I'm surprised that most Cyrodiil tanks don't group up with a bomber. The tank is already naturally stacking people around them, just need a friendly bomber to pop in and say hello and let the AP flow.

LittlePinkDot

May I remind everyone that tales of tribute is called PvP 😁

React

Brian wheeler told us today on the live stream that he plays a "maras balm/hist sap" healer with "only" 40k HP.

Sounds like this boring and pointless tank gameplay is exactly what the PVP devs want for ESO.

Tragic.

DrSlaughtr

There is nothing wrong with being a tank or a healer or a damage dealer. There has been a long standing issue (going back to Waking Flame) that gives the ability to do all three well on most classes. Some players enjoy having 5 minute 1v1 or 1vX fights, and those players are going to drift toward min-maxing all three. And with all the shields being thrown around with no real counterplay to them, it aggravates the issue.

It would be nice if going hard into survivability and healing would have downside equal to going hard into damage. Someone who wears 3 damage sets with high resources and CP dedicated to doing damage will drop immense amount of damage while being relatively easy to kill.

On the flipside, you can have a character built to 35k+ health, 30k armor, throw damage shield on a scribing skill, and wear a single damage set that boosts healing and increases skill damage enough to the point they lose very little DPS ground.

I personally like faster combat. I understand others do not and that's okay.

StaticWave

joshisanonymous wrote: »

These people are partaking in the type of PvP Cyrodiil is about way more than the people who just want to run circles around rocks and walls so they can "1vX" over locations that mean absolutely nothing to the overall war.

So you're telling me the lone player fighting 6 enemies who were on their way to capturing his keep is not contributing to the overall war?

What do you think is more valuable, 1 warrior taking care of 5-6 enemies vs 5 warriors taking care of 5-6 enemies? Now add 3-4 more of those 1vXers and you have a small scale group of 4-5 players taking on 15-20 people. That's way more valuable than 5-6 ppl shooting seige from a keep lol.

StaticWave

React wrote: »

A big part of the issue here that people fail to grasp is the effort/skill required to survive as a pvp tank compared to the effort required to dps well, and how in the current state of the game a properly built tank would have to go completely afk to die to the best DPS player.

It wasn't always the case that tanks were completely untouchable the way they are now. You used to be able to wear them down sustain wise, pressure their HP with due to their lack of any real self healing/shielding, catch them when their block dropped on barswaps which was removed, etc. Tanks could feasibly die 1v1 in the past if they played poorly and the DPS trying to kill them played well.

This is no longer the case. Now the most inept tank can effortlessly and endlessly survive the highest DPS player flawlessly parsing them if they equip the right sets and skills. They never run out of sustain, many of them have access to strong defensive scaling heals (polar wind, necro scythe, nightblade dark cloak, healthsorc hardened ward, arc impervious runeward), etc. This allows for boring and toxic scenarios like the one OP described, where they'll show up to a resource or a flag in IC and just stand there, preventing you from flipping it. Or when they'll do nothing but spam resurrect people in a fight, without you being able to do anything to punish them because they're completely untouchable. Or when theyll stand on a relic in a BG spamming bash so nobody can pick it up. This would be all fine if there was counterplay to it, but there isn't. The counterplay is quite literally "have 3-4x players to kill one tank"..

The game disproportionately rewards players who don't care about actually participating in PVP, and this in turn hurts the experience for those who do.

There's an EP tank called "A Giant Brick" who will jump into a zerg sieging a keep to literally destroy their sieges. Nobody can kill him and he goes around burning down all the siege and running back into the keep. That's just 1 person btw. Imagine if there were 4 tanks doing that lol

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So what's the tank's reward for giving up all damage if they can't tank players that decide to engage them?

How is there no counterplay when just two players who care to kill tanks can do so fairly easily with the right setup? There are sets and poisons that are there just to kill tanks.

But again why should a tank or healer fold so easily when they have no way to kill a player?

Also since when was pvp just about kills? Player vs player doesn't strictly translate to player kill player. If a player is denying you something then I'd say you could call them your adversary. If you didn't bring the numbers or kit to beat them then so be it move on to the next thing, they won this round lol

I think you are underestimating how tanky people can be if they build for it. As a DPS player with investments into defense, I am already considered very tanky and can tank damage from 2-3 experienced players for a short period of time. A properly built tank can shrug off damage from 5-6 experienced players without breaking a sweat. I've seen those tanks take damage from a group of 15+ pugs and don't die.

So what's the tank's reward? Apart from the funny experience they get for tanking 10-15 people, they can also do what OP described - ruining people's experience. Here are some scenarios where those tanks can be toxic:

- Burn all your siege
- Prevent you from rezzing your teammate by bashing you
- Prevent you from winning a fight by spamming rez on a player you've already killed

All of this results from them being literally unkillable.

divnyi

Iriidius wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

I would say the same of Imperial City. Pretty sure a lot of players are there for the quests and other PVE aspects and couldn't care less about PVP. I'm one of them.

To be fair IC is PvPvE zone and I would only cheer if they increased incentives to actually do PvE there due to the dangers that this zone put on a player.

All Tel Var in IC is created by killing NPCs, nothing by killing players, it just changes owner. Because nobody farms Tel Var and everyone zergs other players nobody gives much Tel Var when killed. In 2018 you could easily farm NPCs and sometimes 1v1 another player, nowadays as a solo player you dont get threw a district without getting jumped by a full group and with a group you have to split your tel var from killing soloable NPCs and still get zerged by bigger groups. Got zerged probably few hundred times in a IC Event and not a single time attacked solo and it is not because I am unkillable 1v1 but because noone had any interest to 1v1.
There is zero risk for the attacker and no chance to survive for the victim in most IC fights.

Actually the most competitive groups are smallscale 2-5 players that can kill bosses fast. Killing bosses while you control some flags is the REAL DEAL. Hiding them (moving to the side areas so less players see em) and killing gives quite a lot of telvars.

Groups bigger than that can win fights, sure, but you dilute telvar share between each person. Ultimately, it might be more profitable to run against them, run from them and steal bosses they failed to control.

Going solo, you can do similar stuff but it would take lot more time to kill a boss, to a degree where people would find you first. So solo gank is the most preferred role indeed.

The most detrimental mechanic in IC is flags - controlling more keeps means more telvars/NPC, but fighting for control means less time to grind. Also losing side is discouraged to continue struggling.

And those 3 NPCs just chilling on a flag look so stupid in daedra-infected city.