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Lower Speed Cap in Combat with Battle Spirit
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LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.Edited by LittlePinkDot on 24 August 2024 18:130 -
BananaBender✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.3 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
This is why I suggested a special speed cap while battle Spirit is active and you are in combat. I don't want to nerf anything. They are all fine on their own in a vacuum. They become a problem when you can reach speeds that make many game mechanics not work properly by stacking a few of them.
The speed cap also allows a hack that ZoS is not likely to prevent because of how it works because the hack doesn't break the current speed cap. Where as a lower one would make bad actors easily detectable0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.
You mean you use it PVE??? Why?0 -
BananaBender✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.
You mean you use it PVE??? Why?
Because it's one of the best red CPs? Movement speed allows you to avoid a lot of damage, get from A to B faster etc. Celerity is one of the few sources of movement speed that doesn't drop your damage, which makes it extremely important. It's also insanely good on tanks since you are missing the movement speed buffs from Medium armour. It's also really good on healers since a lot of kiting mechanics are easier with move movement speed.
Majority of the red CPs are just bad/not needed on DDs and healers, and Celerity is one of the few ones where you get noticeable benefit just by having it. (unlike slippery or expert evasion, they are situationally really good but in majority of situations they provide very little benefit)<
I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't use Celerity on every build.1 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.
You mean you use it PVE??? Why?
Because it's one of the best red CPs? Movement speed allows you to avoid a lot of damage, get from A to B faster etc. Celerity is one of the few sources of movement speed that doesn't drop your damage, which makes it extremely important. It's also insanely good on tanks since you are missing the movement speed buffs from Medium armour. It's also really good on healers since a lot of kiting mechanics are easier with move movement speed.
Majority of the red CPs are just bad/not needed on DDs and healers, and Celerity is one of the few ones where you get noticeable benefit just by having it. (unlike slippery or expert evasion, they are situationally really good but in majority of situations they provide very little benefit)<
I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't use Celerity on every build.
I'm not big into PVE but I definitely don't use it on my Arcanist tank.
There's definitely CP stars I would prefer to celerity for PvP. I kinda look at it with loathing sometimes, wishing it wasn't mandatory.0 -
BananaBender✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »BananaBender wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It is only a Soft counter, so it does not counter the use of the skill. You still moved away and one player can follow you if they have gap closer slotted, but it is not guaranteed and hard to pull of (if sorc streaks 2 times or streaks away & move behind obstacle). It is also not a "free" counter as skills cost resources. It does not have ramping cost as it requires a target to cast.Gap closers completely counter streak. Further distance and no cost multiplier. You should not be able to counter streak for free. Also, sorcs have the same access to that speed too.
The only thing that has Hard counter & can be countered completely is stealth & invisibility. Detection skills, potion & sets are this Hard Counter as not only those prohibit the use of the skill & crouch stealth but those also do remove the effect and even if the player re-casts the skill or uses potion it immediately removes the effect again. Hence why for example streak, roll dodge, or the new Vault skill has ramping cost - cuz those only have soft counters. If they had hard counter, then there would exists something would cancel the use of the skill or make it impossible to even cast & you would only keep wasting resources trying.
Never said it was a free counter. I said all the passive speed in the game is. The sorc also had to slot streak and got stacking cost as well. You still come out ahead. If they double streak then that is two globals, aka you got outplayed.
This idea that you should just be able to run down a streaking sort is wild. It's also why arcanist gate and vamp mist feel bad cause by time the animation ends you are still being ran down. Remove the speed and those skills will feel a lot better I guarantee it.
Get rid of needing to select a point on the ground before running through the apocryphal gate. It's janky on PS5 which is what I play on. It should operate more like streak.
If you want to nerf speed I would rather nerf major expedition.
Not everyone is rich and can afford the gold mats to gold all their jewelry just make swift relevant. Most jewelry I never get past purple unless I bought it from the Golden vendor.
Not a complete solution but there is a setting that makes gate cast instantly. I was a long time Playstation player myself. I still use a ps5 controller on PC cause I don't like to hunch over keyboard these days but that setting improves it's functionality tremendously.
I understand why ZoS wants delays on skills like that because it allows reaction time for counter play. All well and good till passive speed is so high you can cover that distance and more before the cast and animation ends.
Nerfing major expedition makes no sense, especially if you are saying gold jewelry is cost prohibitive for most players. Sources of Major expedition are not. Plus I think you should be rewarded for using a global more than something you can get from selling crowns. As that is my whole point, using a global for a movement skill should feel impactful. Instead you can get more speed passively from swift jewelry and celerity CP star.
Then get rid of celerity...I could then use another defensive star anyway.
But nerfing Swift to the point of being useless at purple quality is just garbage. Literally will be making it useless. No reason to not just use infused or bloodthirsty instead.
Would at least need to give swift a secondary effect like resource Regen or maybe a bit of weapon/spell dmg that scales with quality, but the 5% speed should be 5% at any quality so it's never just useless junk without being golded.
Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.
You mean you use it PVE??? Why?
Because it's one of the best red CPs? Movement speed allows you to avoid a lot of damage, get from A to B faster etc. Celerity is one of the few sources of movement speed that doesn't drop your damage, which makes it extremely important. It's also insanely good on tanks since you are missing the movement speed buffs from Medium armour. It's also really good on healers since a lot of kiting mechanics are easier with move movement speed.
Majority of the red CPs are just bad/not needed on DDs and healers, and Celerity is one of the few ones where you get noticeable benefit just by having it. (unlike slippery or expert evasion, they are situationally really good but in majority of situations they provide very little benefit)<
I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't use Celerity on every build.
I'm not big into PVE but I definitely don't use it on my Arcanist tank.
Well, you should really give it a try.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Doesn't need to be removed, just disabled or nerfed while Battle Spirit is active. They've already got the mechanics for this with that new Sorc set that reduces the buff while Battle Spirit is active, plus all the "against monsters" stuff.BananaBender wrote: »Removing Celerity because of PvP might be the worst thing I've heard during my short time on this forum.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »The speed cap itself is fine, it's the easy access to speed buffs that they've been giving away like candy. It takes minimal build investment to be moving over 160% in combat and capped at sprint, and not much more to go even faster. Celerity cp doesn't need to exist at all, it just speed creeps the entire game by 10%, speed passives don't need to exist either. I'd go so far as to say using a defensive weapon (SnB, Ice, Resto) should also reduce movement speed in PvP.
Unless you want to delete streak from the game entirely, every other class needs a way to be fast enough to catch a sorc.
Slot a gap closer. They all have longer range than Streak and don't have escalating cost.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »The speed cap itself is fine, it's the easy access to speed buffs that they've been giving away like candy. It takes minimal build investment to be moving over 160% in combat and capped at sprint, and not much more to go even faster. Celerity cp doesn't need to exist at all, it just speed creeps the entire game by 10%, speed passives don't need to exist either. I'd go so far as to say using a defensive weapon (SnB, Ice, Resto) should also reduce movement speed in PvP.
Unless you want to delete streak from the game entirely, every other class needs a way to be fast enough to catch a sorc.
Sorcs are out of balance but 50% of the PVP population is Nightblades. They can do anything in the game.
My NB easily stays at speed cap. crit damage cap, permanent major protection, and rolls around 7000 dmg, and 60ish crit rate. How ball groups still move faster than me, no clue.
No way I can match those stats on my Sorc. I can make my frag proc tooltip almost as large as my merciless on the above build, but I lose all of the speed, crit damage, crit rate and major protection, lol. Without the crit damage cap, it hits half as hard in real play.
Edited by katorga on 26 August 2024 19:573 -
Bobomb✭I dont know of single players should be hindered in this way but I would stand behind a change that gave groups a movement speed cap of 15% over normal run speed while close to other group members0
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NuarBlack✭✭✭✭I dont know of single players should be hindered in this way but I would stand behind a change that gave groups a movement speed cap of 15% over normal run speed while close to other group members
Currently the speed cap is 200% or 100% over normal run speed. So, that would be pretty drastic. I also never think it is a good idea to balance around Cyro. It is inherently unbalanced and every attempt has backfired as the ball groups just utilize whatever tool better than solo. An addon or party chat would just be used so people didn't actually group but were still defacto grouped.
No, groups benefit in that there are ways to give you group speed buffs and keep the group speed capped without everyone having to sacrifice to be speed capped. So, instead you just lower the speed cap. So groups don't benefit anymore than solo. If you want fair pvp join a fair pvp mode.
Lower the speed cap to 150% to 160%. Easily achievable by basically all classes solo. Popping major expedition or a teleport will feel impactful then and likely give you a chance of evading the ball group.0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I know this idea sounds blasphemous, cause everyone wants to go fast, but I think it is the main imbalance between melee and range at the moment. While the melee range increase helped, desync is still an issue for melee in pvp and high speed exacerbates this issue tremendously.
Plus, I miss the give and take dance of gap closers and gap creators. While now the only one worth using is streak and that is for reasons other than the movement primarily. Cast times of many skills makes them unusable in a meta with such high speed. And it isn't just skills with stated cast times. Simple animation frames make skills feel clunky when players can reach glitchy level of jukes due to just passive speed. It makes the already lackluster combat feel even more incongruent.
I said long ago that Swift needs to be nerfed by about 2%. So from a maximum of 7% per trait, it would be a maximum of 5%. Three swift would then be equal to minor expedition. If you want to move faster, it'll take more investment.
I think if people just couldn't immediately break free of stuns it would go along way towards catching people.
But nerfing swift just nerfs particular classes more than others. What is it you expect my Arcanist to do?
There's also snares to slow people down. Rather than nerfing swift I would rather just have better counters.
Who are these people who can immediately break free? I need to learn this magic. Sometimes I can't break free at all.
Well I've certainly seen them. They break free before I can finish casting the painfully slow Snipe ability.
That must be a CP slottable or a set. Manually breaking free, especially in battle grounds, is almost never instant for me.0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No stand-your-ground class is supposed to move as fast as an elusive class. No elusive class is supposed to be as tanky as a stand-your-ground class.
Removing the easy sources of speed is one of the best ways to revert classes to its original archetype.Edited by StaticWave on 27 August 2024 16:16Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc4 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »LittlePinkDot wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »I know this idea sounds blasphemous, cause everyone wants to go fast, but I think it is the main imbalance between melee and range at the moment. While the melee range increase helped, desync is still an issue for melee in pvp and high speed exacerbates this issue tremendously.
Plus, I miss the give and take dance of gap closers and gap creators. While now the only one worth using is streak and that is for reasons other than the movement primarily. Cast times of many skills makes them unusable in a meta with such high speed. And it isn't just skills with stated cast times. Simple animation frames make skills feel clunky when players can reach glitchy level of jukes due to just passive speed. It makes the already lackluster combat feel even more incongruent.
I said long ago that Swift needs to be nerfed by about 2%. So from a maximum of 7% per trait, it would be a maximum of 5%. Three swift would then be equal to minor expedition. If you want to move faster, it'll take more investment.
I think if people just couldn't immediately break free of stuns it would go along way towards catching people.
But nerfing swift just nerfs particular classes more than others. What is it you expect my Arcanist to do?
There's also snares to slow people down. Rather than nerfing swift I would rather just have better counters.
Who are these people who can immediately break free? I need to learn this magic. Sometimes I can't break free at all.
if your playing in a cp environment, there is the slippery cp, which is an instant free cc break with a cooldown
that helps tremendouslyplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
Bobomb✭I dont know of single players should be hindered in this way but I would stand behind a change that gave groups a movement speed cap of 15% over normal run speed while close to other group members
Currently the speed cap is 200% or 100% over normal run speed. So, that would be pretty drastic. I also never think it is a good idea to balance around Cyro. It is inherently unbalanced and every attempt has backfired as the ball groups just utilize whatever tool better than solo. An addon or party chat would just be used so people didn't actually group but were still defacto grouped.
No, groups benefit in that there are ways to give you group speed buffs and keep the group speed capped without everyone having to sacrifice to be speed capped. So, instead you just lower the speed cap. So groups don't benefit anymore than solo. If you want fair pvp join a fair pvp mode.
Lower the speed cap to 150% to 160%. Easily achievable by basically all classes solo. Popping major expedition or a teleport will feel impactful then and likely give you a chance of evading the ball group.
Not sure if you missed my point or if Im missing yours. The suggestio9n I made was to ensure that solo players and groups of players that stay far enouhg form eachother or for example groups which are sieging and not in need ot movement speed arent punished, while ballgroups which do use not only an insane amount of crosshealing but also high movement speeds bonuses to avoid getting caught in a damage are infact having to face harder odds.
Putting a movement speed cap on players within a group with a proximity of eachother might not be the answer but it definitely will make ball groups need to think a little bit before running around at max speed farming ungrouped players.
Additonally i suspect it would feel much more rewarding for non grouped players to actually see their skills hit something rather than wasting an entire ulti on a group just zooms out of it within a second.
This could also be an alternative way of testing that sort of balance without necessarily nerfing ballgroups healing.
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TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Let me guess, someone you were fighting was on the losing side so they ran for it and you couldn't catch them.
That is not on them, speed builds are a thing, not everyone wants to sacrifice their thousands of tel var stones just so you can have the satisfaction of killing them, you already forced them to run so that should be satisfaction enough, not every battle needs to end in death.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on 31 August 2024 16:510 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭The max movement speed in this game has always been too fast for PvP and the tick rate of the servers.
It’s most evident when you have fights in the towers and people just run in a circle up and down the tower unable to be killed.2 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Twohothardware wrote: »The max movement speed in this game has always been too fast for PvP and the tick rate of the servers.
It’s most evident when you have fights in the towers and people just run in a circle up and down the tower unable to be killed.
No it started as a result of everyone getting major expedition back in summerset from Race against Time , if you played before summerset or early eso days pvp was MUCH MUCH slower, this is just a consequence of the vision change ZoS had for the game
Originally each class had it's own specific thing it was good at but because zos wants everyone to 'play how you want" everyone can be speedy.Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade2 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭I know this idea sounds blasphemous, cause everyone wants to go fast, but I think it is the main imbalance between melee and range at the moment. While the melee range increase helped, desync is still an issue for melee in pvp and high speed exacerbates this issue tremendously.
Plus, I miss the give and take dance of gap closers and gap creators. While now the only one worth using is streak and that is for reasons other than the movement primarily. Cast times of many skills makes them unusable in a meta with such high speed. And it isn't just skills with stated cast times. Simple animation frames make skills feel clunky when players can reach glitchy level of jukes due to just passive speed. It makes the already lackluster combat feel even more incongruent.
IDK man, i already be getting incapped and dswinged from what seems to be 15 meters. Not even gonna mention off balance weave bows from 2 football fields away.
I would even go as far as saying, melee range needs to be 5 m and less. not more.0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭I know this idea sounds blasphemous, cause everyone wants to go fast, but I think it is the main imbalance between melee and range at the moment. While the melee range increase helped, desync is still an issue for melee in pvp and high speed exacerbates this issue tremendously.
Plus, I miss the give and take dance of gap closers and gap creators. While now the only one worth using is streak and that is for reasons other than the movement primarily. Cast times of many skills makes them unusable in a meta with such high speed. And it isn't just skills with stated cast times. Simple animation frames make skills feel clunky when players can reach glitchy level of jukes due to just passive speed. It makes the already lackluster combat feel even more incongruent.
IDK man, i already be getting incapped and dswinged from what seems to be 15 meters. Not even gonna mention off balance weave bows from 2 football fields away.
I would even go as far as saying, melee range needs to be 5 m and less. not more.
Well NB are a problem unto themselves and I just mentioned the melee range increase because it was supposed to be a solution. It applying unevenly means it wasn't the right solution.
So essentially I agree. I want the give and take of melee and range to be brought back. Where there is kiting and tactically used skills that kite or close gaps. Instead of just the blurr of whoever has the class kit that allows the stacking of the most speed while maintaining high damage.0 -
bladenick✭✭✭It totally bad idea that lower speed cap for any means, because we get so many gear increase movement speed, if speed is problem in PVP, there shall additional debuff on battle spirit such as overall speed decrease 10% or sort of similar, but it not a easy game, range attack should adjust accordingly, a simple equally overall buff/debuff will always end at reshuffle of class balance,
In game aspect, There shall always option for speed build that invest all gear on speed then get fast than other player
The perfect balance is just identical, if every class is same and everyone play game in same style, it totally balanced, I don’t thing anyone willing to play such game if ever existEdited by bladenick on 2 September 2024 23:560 -
necro_the_crafter✭✭✭✭remeber guys devs cut most major and minor buffs/debufs from 30/15% to 15/8%? Wonder why they dindnt do that to Expedition as well.0 -
System_Data✭✭✭I would oppose the idea of diminishing overall movement via battlespirit.
One of the reasons I don't participate in cyrodiil is because it's just takes too long to go from one point to another, there's a reason why the term horse simulator floated around with cyrodiil.
Some maps in battlegrounds require a decent amount of travelling. Reducing movement speed delays your overall amount of combat and fun that you could partake in.
Seriously, if stuff de-syncs all the time, get better servers or have better coding instead of taking it on the expense of the players. Any other pvp game that i've played didn't have such a serious issues with de-syncs compared to ESO.0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭System_Data wrote: »I would oppose the idea of diminishing overall movement via battlespirit.
One of the reasons I don't participate in cyrodiil is because it's just takes too long to go from one point to another, there's a reason why the term horse simulator floated around with cyrodiil.
Some maps in battlegrounds require a decent amount of travelling. Reducing movement speed delays your overall amount of combat and fun that you could partake in.
Seriously, if stuff de-syncs all the time, get better servers or have better coding instead of taking it on the expense of the players. Any other pvp game that i've played didn't have such a serious issues with de-syncs compared to ESO.
Cyrodiil is a red herring. It's a problem unto itself. Battle grounds have no problem with distance and travel.
That being said, reason why I stipulated with both being tagged in combat and with battle Spirit. There is already a green CP star that affects speed based on in combat vs out. So it wouldn't affect out of combat travel at all.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭What a horrible idea to nerf speed as a whole just because the servers can't "keep up".
The problem 99% of the time is that you can't keep up and that's simply b/c gap-closers (the counter to speed builds) are no longer appealing by any means; this is primarily due to the majority/all of them having non-descript casting latency/built-in delays and not providing secondary and tertiary effects worth running.
I for one, while I play may werewolf for example, require speed just to survive any situation. There is no other alternative where I maintain any semblance of real damage and still have survivability otherwise; and that's before I'm hit with a snare too.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭What a horrible idea to nerf speed as a whole just because the servers can't "keep up".
The problem 99% of the time is that you can't keep up and that's simply b/c gap-closers (the counter to speed builds) are no longer appealing by any means; this is primarily due to the majority/all of them having non-descript casting latency/built-in delays and not providing secondary and tertiary effects worth running.
I for one, while I play may werewolf for example, require speed just to survive any situation. There is no other alternative where I maintain any semblance of real damage and still have survivability otherwise; and that's before I'm hit with a snare too.
Another red herring. If you can't survive without using speed to exploit the game engine and servers then that is a separate issue. It's not just the servers. The animations don't even keep up regardless of cast times. It's literally the biggest complaint about the game that combat has no weight and feels disconnected from the animations. Slowing the game down will definitely help that. And the game felt infinitely better 8 or so years ago prior to swift jewelry and all the speed increases. Burst being too high is not a good excuse to keep bad combat mechanics.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭What a horrible idea to nerf speed as a whole just because the servers can't "keep up".
The problem 99% of the time is that you can't keep up and that's simply b/c gap-closers (the counter to speed builds) are no longer appealing by any means; this is primarily due to the majority/all of them having non-descript casting latency/built-in delays and not providing secondary and tertiary effects worth running.
I for one, while I play may werewolf for example, require speed just to survive any situation. There is no other alternative where I maintain any semblance of real damage and still have survivability otherwise; and that's before I'm hit with a snare too.
Another red herring. If you can't survive without using speed to exploit the game engine and servers then that is a separate issue. It's not just the servers. The animations don't even keep up regardless of cast times. It's literally the biggest complaint about the game that combat has no weight and feels disconnected from the animations. Slowing the game down will definitely help that. And the game felt infinitely better 8 or so years ago prior to swift jewelry and all the speed increases. Burst being too high is not a good excuse to keep bad combat mechanics.
You're absolutely right on the 'red-herring' part; although werewolf isn't going to be buffed any time soon.
Speed is not inherently the issue and nerfing it drastically in any aspect would be considered both 'anti-fun' and a bandaid for the p*ss poor server condition we have. As a result, fixing gap closers where they perform their original role correctly would and should be the proper and effective option here.
By buffing gap closers you both get rid of a set of near-useless skills and come up with a counter still to high-speed builds without limiting/affecting build choice and creativity.Edited by Wuuffyy on 4 September 2024 05:38Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭What a horrible idea to nerf speed as a whole just because the servers can't "keep up".
The problem 99% of the time is that you can't keep up and that's simply b/c gap-closers (the counter to speed builds) are no longer appealing by any means; this is primarily due to the majority/all of them having non-descript casting latency/built-in delays and not providing secondary and tertiary effects worth running.
I for one, while I play may werewolf for example, require speed just to survive any situation. There is no other alternative where I maintain any semblance of real damage and still have survivability otherwise; and that's before I'm hit with a snare too.
Another red herring. If you can't survive without using speed to exploit the game engine and servers then that is a separate issue. It's not just the servers. The animations don't even keep up regardless of cast times. It's literally the biggest complaint about the game that combat has no weight and feels disconnected from the animations. Slowing the game down will definitely help that. And the game felt infinitely better 8 or so years ago prior to swift jewelry and all the speed increases. Burst being too high is not a good excuse to keep bad combat mechanics.
You're absolutely right on the 'red-herring' part; although werewolf isn't going to be buffed any time soon.
Speed is not inherently the issue and nerfing it drastically in any aspect would be considered both 'anti-fun' and a bandaid for the p*ss poor server condition we have. As a result, fixing gap closers where they perform their original role correctly would and should be the proper and effective option here.
By buffing gap closers you both get rid of a set of near-useless skills and come up with a counter still to high-speed builds without limiting/affecting build choice and creativity.
You can't just buff gap closers. It is not just the servers. The games speed cap is literally faster than the animations. Every gap closer would have to be an instant teleport with no animation. Which again plays into the poor feeling of combat already. You literally would just be doubling down on the problem. Slowing the game down isn't anti-fun. It's how the game used to be and it was way better then. Anti fun is character animations getting all distorted and looking bad while combat feels extremely weightless and incongruent.0